Being in shape

[myusername]

Exactly my point so many people believe that astreet fight will last twenty - thirty minutes it makes me wonder how many folk habe ever been in a real encounter. MMA people believe they van wear someone down, I guess that means they are not in a street encounter but in a ring with rules.

I agree with this to a point, especially 1-1 encounters. But what about multiple attackers? My older brother and his 3 friends were attacked outside a pub a few years ago. My brother is large and at times aggressive and has little diplomacy skills so had offended some guy earlier in the evening. On leaving the pub he and his friends were met with a vicious attack from a gang of 15! My brother was bottled in the back of his head and quickly floored. He then had to endure an onslaught of kicks and stomps to his head and body that lasted until the ambulance and then police arriving. This was not seconds this was minutes! Now stamina and being in shape would not have helped my brother as he was pretty much out of it before the fight started but his three friends were there trying to protect him and unable to leave him to this pack of animals. One of his friends who already had a metal plate in his head from a previous accident was bottled in the face. His friends (one of them a weight lifter and removal man) put up a spirited defence and were fighting these guys off until the ambulance and police arrived. Endurance and fitness is an important part of self defence for those times where you are unable to disengage yourself as quickly as you would like.

My brother is OK now. He was badly shook up about this incident and had flashbacks for a while but on a positive note he is more aware that he is not invincible.

 

[takadadojokeith]

Exactly my point so many people believe that astreet fight will last twenty - thirty minutes it makes me wonder how many folk habe ever been in a real encounter. MMA people believe they van wear someone down, I guess that means they are not in a street encounter but in a ring with rules.

Sure, self-defense and cage fighting are different. But I don't think they're mutually exclusive. Fitness is a good example of where they overlap. In both, the ideal is to finish a guy as fast as possible and in both things don't always work out that way. Being in good shape means you're more likely to put a guy away quickly and more likely to have things turn out well if you don't.

 

[Tez3]

Most MMA people I know will treat a bout on a fightnight differently from the way they treat a street fight, many of the guys who fight MMA are also doormen, my instructor is. He will train fighters and teach MMA differently from the way he teaches self defence. he'll teach a MMA move then say if you wouldn't do this on the street or he'll show a different way that works better in a non rules environment.
We have other fighters who are police officers who again have to treat things differently as when out on the street working they are bound also by rules.
For all reasons though we train to be as fit as we can, not just for the sport or self defence but for health.
The trick is of course, never judge a book by it's cover and assume the 'fat' guy isn't fit at all.

 

[seasoned]

The trick is of course, never judge a book by it's cover and assume the 'fat' guy isn't fit at all.

Very excellent point. It lends itself to not under estimating anyone, or becoming too cocky. This is also a good thing to remember in all aspects of life.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Absolutely! Do not underestimate anyone!!!

 

[Tez3]

However it's good to be underestimated especially in a fight! :ultracool

 

[HM2PAC]

I underestimated one of the younger BB's a couple of months ago. He is obviously obese, but he was faster than I thought he would be. I scored at will. He scored too, but not as much.

But make no mistake, he is out of shape and obese. He is not "Fit" period.

Regardless of who the person is, if they are over-weight, then they should be classified as out-of-shape. Some people are OK with that. That is their choice.

When I step onto the mat with anyone obese or out of shape (fat or skinny) I go as fast as I can. I know they can't keep up.

 

[Tez3]

I underestimated one of the younger BB's a couple of months ago. He is obviously obese, but he was faster than I thought he would be. I scored at will. He scored too, but not as much.

But make no mistake, he is out of shape and obese. He is not "Fit" period.

Regardless of who the person is, if they are over-weight, then they should be classified as out-of-shape. Some people are OK with that. That is their choice.

When I step onto the mat with anyone obese or out of shape (fat or skinny) I go as fast as I can. I know they can't keep up.

I think in a SD type situation adrenaline will keep someone going longer than you'd expect, trouble is that goes for the attacker as well! the will to live can be very strong which gives you that boost you need to run faster than you ever thought was possible or last out in a fight.

As they say in Yorkshire, it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!

 

[HM2PAC]

Tez3 wrote:

the will to live can be very strong which gives you that boost you need to run faster than you ever thought was possible or last out in a fight.

In a real fight adrenaline will help, some. Typically people are really worn out after a short burst of combat/fighting. Sleeping just seems to come naturally when the smoke clears.

That, and you will default to your level of training rather than "Rise to the occasion".

Adrenaline will:
Raise your heart rate.
Raise your blood pressure.
Dilate your pupils.
Make your hair stand on end, (pilo-erection).
Make you sweat.
Give you an erection.
Open your airways.
Enhance/Increase your strength.

It will not give you endurance.

 

[jks9199]

I underestimated one of the younger BB's a couple of months ago. He is obviously obese, but he was faster than I thought he would be. I scored at will. He scored too, but not as much.

But make no mistake, he is out of shape and obese. He is not "Fit" period.

Regardless of who the person is, if they are over-weight, then they should be classified as out-of-shape. Some people are OK with that. That is their choice.

When I step onto the mat with anyone obese or out of shape (fat or skinny) I go as fast as I can. I know they can't keep up.

Is a football offensive lineman out of shape? How about a sumo wrestler?

Fitness has a definite relation to body fat -- but they aren't synonymous. My lowest weight in recent memory was about 235 lbs; most optimistic "ideal weights" suggest I should, based on actual body composition, be around 200 lbs. At 235, I easily did a 6 minute and change mile (sorry, don't have the exact time) and actually led much of my academy class in PT standards. By the way -- when I started the academy, my routine workout included more than an hour of cardio training, maxing the speed on the treadmill. Was I fit? I was overweight by any standard; grossly obese by some (like BMI).

 

[HM2PAC]

jks9199 wrote:

Is a football offensive lineman out of shape? How about a sumo wrestler?

Yes, and yes. They are in good enough shape to compete in their respective sports, but they are obese. Unless you are talking about linemen from the service academies that have to maintain BF% standards and fit into uniforms.

jks9199 wrote:

I should, based on actual body composition, be around 200 lbs. At 235, I easily did a 6 minute and change mile (sorry, don't have the exact time) and actually led much of my academy class in PT standards. By the way -- when I started the academy, my routine workout included more than an hour of cardio training, maxing the speed on the treadmill. Was I fit? I was overweight by any standard; grossly obese by some (like BMI).

How tall are you? What is your BF%? BMI charts are known to be fraught with inconsistencies when applied to men who are muscular. If you have a low BF% then I'd have to say you are more than likely in shape. However if you are 23% or more, I'd say you need to lose weight, regardless of how you perform.

I'm 5'11" and 220. I qualify as obese per the BMI charts. But my BF% is low, the excess weight is muscle. My resting heart rate is in the 60 BPM range, and after swimming hard enough to raise it to 140, it readjusts in under 2 minutes. (To add to the confusion, there are some who say that even though the excess weight is muscle, it is still a strain on my heart).

jks9199 wrote:

My lowest weight in recent memory was about 235 lbs; most optimistic "ideal weights" suggest I should, based on actual body composition, be around 200 lbs.

If by composition you mean muscle vs fat, then you need to lose 35+ lbs. If it's just a table , I'd forget about it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

It all depends on the style you train, the teacher of that style and why you train it

 

[jks9199]

jks9199 wrote:


Yes, and yes. They are in good enough shape to compete in their respective sports, but they are obese. Unless you are talking about linemen from the service academies that have to maintain BF% standards and fit into uniforms.

jks9199 wrote:


How tall are you? What is your BF%? BMI charts are known to be fraught with inconsistencies when applied to men who are muscular. If you have a low BF% then I'd have to say you are more than likely in shape. However if you are 23% or more, I'd say you need to lose weight, regardless of how you perform.

I'm 5'11" and 220. I qualify as obese per the BMI charts. But my BF% is low, the excess weight is muscle. My resting heart rate is in the 60 BPM range, and after swimming hard enough to raise it to 140, it readjusts in under 2 minutes. (To add to the confusion, there are some who say that even though the excess weight is muscle, it is still a strain on my heart).

jks9199 wrote:


If by composition you mean muscle vs fat, then you need to lose 35+ lbs. If it's just a table , I'd forget about it.

The question wasn't was I overweight or obese. I absolutely was (and am). I said so. The question was whether or not I was fit. I had less than no trouble with a standard treadmill stress test; I believe the doc needed something like 15 or 20 minutes on their standard protocol to get me to my max heart rate.

Body weight and body composition is not automatically or directly related to fitness -- though it is strongly correlated.

 

[HM2PAC]

jks9199 wrote:

The question wasn't was I overweight or obese. I absolutely was (and am). I said so. The question was whether or not I was fit.

Someone needs to come up with a definition of physical fitness that includes obesity as an option?

I had less than no trouble with a standard treadmill stress test; I believe the doc needed something like 15 or 20 minutes on their standard protocol to get me to my max heart rate.

You should be able to reach 85% of your max heart rate easily and efficiently in a matter of minutes, if you are putting out the requisite effort. You should then be able to return to resting heart rate just as efficiently. You should not go to max.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Let's be reasonable. Take a guy with boundless experience that is obese, make him lose 10% body fat, and he is going to be a better fighter. He's less inert. That alone will make him faster. More of his body is actually doing or able to actually be doing something. That will make him more efficient.

I fight a heck of a lot better than I did fifty pounds ago. I went from 38% bodyfat to 20% bodyfat. I move better. simple. Fitness matters in Martial arts just as much as the gasoline you put in your car affects its performance.

 

[Twin Fist]

still not taling about the subject at hand, which is for SELF DEFENSE

 

[HM2PAC]

Original Post:

Does this really matter in the Martial Arts, I mean I have seen some pretty heavey and out of shape dudes that could kick the living **** out of someone. So how much truth is in it.

Nothing about SELF DEFENSE here. There was no mention of SD vs sparring. "Kicking the living **** out of someone" could be either.

 

[Sukerkin]

I wish I could say I have never heard such subliminal "Western-Thought Body Nazi Propoganda" (TM) before but sad to say it would not be true.

It is important to realise that every person is pre-programmed at a genetic level to be a certain way at a certain age. The idea that everyone should comply to certain parameters is as ludicrous as it is wrong.

Most of us end up being more weighty than we are designed for because our lives do not include the physical activity that shaped our species. But to assume that it is abhorent to be 'overweight' according to some chart of averages, is to miss out a fair chunk of reasoning.

People are different shapes because 'selection by survival' works to ensure a variety of body forms and metabolisms. If that selection becomes too narrow then, as a species, we become less capable of surviving environmental changes.

You want to guess who is equipped the best to survive a period of low food availability? The fat guy. The ripped 'Hollywood Warrior' type died long ago as his fast metabolism demanded too much input. Oh and that shape itself is not one that our species was meant to be - it is an artificial one crafted by the philosophy that brought us bodybuilders which was then imprinted by the fictional media as the 'shape of heroes'. What happens to bobdybuilders when they stop training, especially the steroid enhanced ones? Not pretty.

To misquote a movie title, "Go Tell The Spartan's". They in turn will tell you that the ideal shown in "The 300" was not the shape that warriors were meant to be.

Stress, indecision and lack of skill or will are much more crippling to a martial artist than being fat - the Japanese knew this, which is why the ideal Samurai body shape included a pot belly to lower the centre of mass.

So, for those who feel nothing but disdain for those people who carry more body fat than they think is reasonable, perhaps it would be better to consider that what is right for one is wrong for another and that most of these 'ideal body' parameters are entirely dependant on culture and period and have very little to do with empirical truth.

The proviso to the above is always going to be, of course, that someone who is too fat to get up has clearly exceeded even the generous bounds that biology sets for us.

EDIT: TF is right. We're skidding away from the core topic now. It's still an interesting discussion but it's not the one that ties closely to the OP.

 

[HM2PAC]

I would never recommend that anyone be a bodybuilder as a standard for fitness.

But being obese can not be accepted as being fit. One or the other. Make a choice and live with it, but don't sugar coat it.

 

[HM2PAC]

Look at it this way,

You can't become overweight/obese until your body has become insulin resistant.....the first step on the road to diabetes.

Maintaining health and fitness is hard to do. It becomes harder when lines and boundaries become blurred.