Bad instructor. What to do????

[FriedRice]

It is OK. Junior black belts are a thing now. As long as the school maintains its standards for adults, I don't see a problem with it. Sort of inevitable, really, that if a school starts kids out as young as 6 or 7, by the time they turn 13, some of them will be black belts.

I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example. We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).

Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier. Like if a new guy just walked off the streets to try it out, average adult in good shape.....will get tapped out every 60-120 seconds if these kids wanted to.

 

[mrt2]

I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example. We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).

Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier.

I am back doing TKD since March, so I am getting a sense of the range of skill levels among both children and adults. Yes, there are children that train as hard, or harder than adults. And others that don't. The sort of kid you are talking about is more the exception than the rule, but they are out there.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree with both of you. However, there’s a way to go about correcting mistakes, small and large.

Let’s assume the instructor in question was completely correct in every single technique he was addressing. That doesn’t give him free reign to belittle, lose patience, etc. If the students were all wrong, chances are pretty good that they were doing what they were taught. Who’s shoulders does that fall on? The teacher who taught them. Giving students a hard time about making the mistakes they were taught is absurd. And there’s a way to go about making corrections, especially with kids.

I’m not opposed to the drill Sargent methods. In fact I think we need more of that in our society, especially with the kids. But there’s a way to do it without crossing the line. Know your audience IMO.

Edit: I’m not defending nor condoning what the instructor did. I wasn’t there.

I agree. Even though some student may have an EGO vs Reality moment with me, I've never gotten any bad feedback from parents nor students beyond a few frustrated groans and signs. Everyone just pushes that feeling aside and get back to the business of training. Parents always wanted me to train their kids because of my focus on making sure they got things correct.

Now that I think of it, I'm more flexible with getting the forms incorrect that the application of the technique. My own forms look dirty and not fine tuned and that's because I do forms as if I'm fighting. I often move off center even though it's not in the form.

 

[FriedRice]

I am back doing TKD since March, so I am getting a sense of the range of skill levels among both children and adults. Yes, there are children that train as hard, or harder than adults. And others that don't. The sort of kid you are talking about is more the exception than the rule, but they are out there.

The one that I mentioned, who's medals & trophies can fill up 2000 sq/ft is the exception, no doubt and not the rule. But I would say that in a BJJ gym, the average kid that sticks with it until age 16 to get his Blue belt is slightly common.

The ones in the competition team at age 13-15 can usually beat most to all of the adult White belts....yet we still only let them rank Blue at 16. So I guess my point being, a Black belt in anything should be able to put a beatdown on most Average Joes, command respect, fear, etc. I could be wrong.

 

[CB Jones]

The way I look at it is....my son is the black belt, I must let him be the black belt.

For him to be respected by students and other instructors....he has to be the one handling problems and/or disagreements ......not his dad.

I give him advice in private but at the dojo I sit back and let him handle things.

 

[Saheim]

Most of what needs saying has already been said.

I'd just add - IF you decide that you unhappy with the way the instructor is speaking to your son AND IF you are going to have a discussion with the chief instructor, I would be sure to approach it from a 'do not want to train on his nights, just need clarity on when they are' angle. He will probably want to know more but, that way, you're not asking him to change his school just honestly stating there are things about it you are uncomfortable with and won't be a part of. Big difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Perhaps he is a bad instructor or perhaps the regular instructor is too slack, it could be either.
For many people, even after training 6 years a 13 year old black belt is suspect. Many places don't promote children to that grade until they are 18 at least, others will give it only as a junior grade with the student being expected to re-grade as an adult. For others children being given black belts is a sign of a McDojo, it's something that causes much debate in martial arts. Many places mine included do not train adults and children together either, we don't find it works for either section. I'm not saying that this is the case, just pointing out some warning points.




What if the guest instructor was correct? it's a thought you should have, just because he has been graded by an 8th Dan ( always question that too, don't take it as a total truth that an 8th Dan is actually better than everyone else, he could be but take it all with a pinch of salt) from the same organisation doesn't mean it's correct by style standards just correct against organisation standards. Have you watched various Shotokan people outside your organisation perform this kata and would you have the experience to know the difference or do you just know what the instructor does?




Were they paying attention or taking the mickey because he wasn't their usual instructor?


I know what I've written looks as if I'm sticking up for the guest instructor, I'm not I'm hoping your will question everything rather than just assume everything is fine when the usual instructor is there. I have the horrible fear that children who are given black belts think they can defend themselves but when shown they can't are either hurt or terribly upset. Talk to the chief instructor and see how that goes. Sometimes someone coming in can shake up the normal dynamic of a class, this isn't always a bad thing. Ask your chief instructor why the guest instructor said the kata was wrong, I'm thinking he will say it's correct as they teach it which isn't the same as correct for Shotokan as a whole. So both instructors will be right.

Tez makes a good point. Don't let the bad behavior (losing his cool, etc.) make you miss a chance to ask yourself some good questions. His methods might not be good, but he might still be right about some points. A good idea on that aspect would be to ask the chief instructor about those specific comments.

On the other aspect, you should definitely have a talk with the chief instructor. If this guy's upsetting students, he probably isn't upholding the same relationship the CI is creating, and that's something he needs to know about. Don't assume anyone else will have that discussion - it's likely they're thinking that, too.

And if the behavior was as bad as you say, you should feel free to not have your son attend any classes taught by that instructor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know man, take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for example. We have kids whom their parents live vicariously through them, so they go crazy and make their kids start training at age 4. At age 6, they start getting serious with competitions = 5-6 days of training at 1-2 hours per day + 3 hours of competition training on Sat or Sun (sometimes both). 1 of our 12 year olds, can fill up 2000 s/q feet of mat space with his medals, belts, sword trophies and trophy trophies (photo op).

Many of these kids train from age 4-16 = 12 years....earning only kids' colored belts. At age 16 is when they get adult rankings....which they have to prove themselves first in adult classes for many months (by tapping lots of adults)....then they earn a BLUE belt at 16.....(white, blue, purple, brown, black). These 14-16 year olds will usually decimate all of the Adult White belts to some of the Adult Blues.....up to 30-40 lbs heavier. Like if a new guy just walked off the streets to try it out, average adult in good shape.....will get tapped out every 60-120 seconds if these kids wanted to.

So?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The one that I mentioned, who's medals & trophies can fill up 2000 sq/ft is the exception, no doubt and not the rule. But I would say that in a BJJ gym, the average kid that sticks with it until age 16 to get his Blue belt is slightly common.

The ones in the competition team at age 13-15 can usually beat most to all of the adult White belts....yet we still only let them rank Blue at 16. So I guess my point being, a Black belt in anything should be able to put a beatdown on most Average Joes, command respect, fear, etc. I could be wrong.

The rank only means what a given group decides it should mean. You're wanting them to apply your standard. Why?

 

[Headhunter]

Okay so rerewd this now I'm home and I still agree with what I said. You said he was picking on him all night. Was he picking on him or critiquing him. Picking on him is making fun of him. Telling someone a mistake they're making is not picking on them. You said they did it well....well what's your rank do you know more than an experienced black belt. Your kid probably was doing it wrong. Get over it he got told he was doing it wrong. If your kid was upset he needs to suck it up frankly and take criticism better because if he thinks he's perfect already then he's in for a rude awakening.

It was his first night as a Black belt and looking forward to it? So you mean he was thinking he'd walk around like the big dog in the kennel with his new black belt looking cool and instead he got told he was doing stuff wrong. I have absolutely 0 doubt the kid was doing stuff wrong. There's absolutely no way his form was perfect because no ones is especially a 13 year olds.

He upset some kids because he shouted at them for misbehaving well if he didn't shout they'd continue to mess around and spoil the class for the ones who want to train.

To sum it up really you're upset that your kid got a correction and he shouted at people misbehaving....that sounds like a great instructor to me

 

[Yokozuna514]

Osu, Dadrockholiday, There are many differing opinions on this subject. If we take the black belt away and ask if the instructor's behaviour would be acceptable, you will probably have as many differing opinions because in reality the question, to me, is more from a parental perspective. In an adult/child relationship, the adult should ALWAYS remember the nature of the relationship and the maturity of the child he or she is addressing.

What clouds the issue is that your 13 year old son has a 'black belt'. This is also a contentious issue with many people because different schools have different schools of thought regarding the awarding of this level to a minor. Being a black belt means different things depending on where you come from (even though it shouldn't). The reality is, there is no unified standard that is generally accepted by everyone.

Speaking as a parent and having seen my own child go through a difficult situation with an adult, I would use my judgement as a parent to determine what I should do. In all instances I want to give my child the best opportunity to resolve this issue on their own but with the understanding that I am also their to guide them if they need it. You can speak with the chief instructor to see if this is normal behaviour from the new instructor and I expect if the chief instructor cares about his school he will invigilate the next few classes but if nothing changes from the new instructors behaviour, you may have to make up your own mind if this 'new norm' is something you and your family are willing to adjust to.

 

[Tez3]

You can speak with the chief instructor to see if this is normal behaviour from the new instructor

The OP did say though that this wasn't at instructor at the school. he didn't say though what rank this guest instructor was, he may outrank the chief instructor which could prove awkward as presumably he would be more experienced and knowledgeable.

 

[Yokozuna514]

The OP did say though that this wasn't at instructor at the school. he didn't say though what rank this guest instructor was, he may outrank the chief instructor which could prove awkward as presumably he would be more experienced and knowledgeable.

How would the rank of the instructors make for an awkward conversation?

 

[Headhunter]

Osu, Dadrockholiday, There are many differing opinions on this subject. If we take the black belt away and ask if the instructor's behaviour would be acceptable, you will probably have as many differing opinions because in reality the question, to me, is more from a parental perspective. In an adult/child relationship, the adult should ALWAYS remember the nature of the relationship and the maturity of the child he or she is addressing.

What clouds the issue is that your 13 year old son has a 'black belt'. This is also a contentious issue with many people because different schools have different schools of thought regarding the awarding of this level to a minor. Being a black belt means different things depending on where you come from (even though it shouldn't). The reality is, there is no unified standard that is generally accepted by everyone.

Speaking as a parent and having seen my own child go through a difficult situation with an adult, I would use my judgement as a parent to determine what I should do. In all instances I want to give my child the best opportunity to resolve this issue on their own but with the understanding that I am also their to guide them if they need it. You can speak with the chief instructor to see if this is normal behaviour from the new instructor and I expect if the chief instructor cares about his school he will invigilate the next few classes but if nothing changes from the new instructors behaviour, you may have to make up your own mind if this 'new norm' is something you and your family are willing to adjust to.

To me as a parent if my kid came crying to me saying the mean instructor criticised his kata and shouted at badly behaved students I'd them to get back on there and deal with it. There's nothing in that post that would concern me. I'm paying for my child to both learn martial arts and to learn respect so why would I be angry when an instructor is doing both those things

 

[Yokozuna514]

To me as a parent if my kid came crying to me saying the mean instructor criticised his kata and shouted at badly behaved students I'd them to get back on there and deal with it. There's nothing in that post that would concern me. I'm paying for my child to both learn martial arts and to learn respect so why would I be angry when an instructor is doing both those things

Ok if that is your parenting style, that is certainly your choice. I don’t tell people how to parent their child. I may offer a suggestion on how to deal with a situation but the choice is ultimately theirs if they want to listen.

 

[drop bear]

I have known instructors like that. And there are two ways of dealing with it.

Good training is serious business they will put up with a duchebag if his skills are what they want.

Training is a hobby and they just don't do training with that sort of person. But then they don't need that sort of top level instruction.

I lean towards hobby. But will put up with a duchebag if I have to from time to time.

Either way it should be an intellectual decision. Not an emotional one.

 

[pgsmith]

To me as a parent if my kid came crying to me saying the mean instructor criticised his kata and shouted at badly behaved students I'd them to get back on there and deal with it. There's nothing in that post that would concern me. I'm paying for my child to both learn martial arts and to learn respect so why would I be angry when an instructor is doing both those things

Prove that he was teaching those things rather than simply bullying an easily available target?
Since we weren't there, your words are as empty as anyone else's.However, since the OP is the one paying for the lessons that his son is attending, he has a much greater stake in what he perceives as proper training
.
In my opinion, there is very little need for any sort of militant approach that many of today's karate schools employ. Just because someone thinks that sort of bullying is necessary doesn't make it so. The only reason it is done in the military is that it creates a unity within the squad through shared misery. This unity is necessary for a unit facing combat where your life depends upon your squad mate's reactions. It is NOT necessary in a neighborhood karate school that teaches children.

 

[drop bear]

How would the rank of the instructors make for an awkward conversation?

Because you get some top instructors who won't be told off by lesser ranks.

 

[Headhunter]

Prove that he was teaching those things rather than simply bullying an easily available target?
Since we weren't there, your words are as empty as anyone else's.However, since the OP is the one paying for the lessons that his son is attending, he has a much greater stake in what he perceives as proper training
.
In my opinion, there is very little need for any sort of militant approach that many of today's karate schools employ. Just because someone thinks that sort of bullying is necessary doesn't make it so. The only reason it is done in the military is that it creates a unity within the squad through shared misery. This unity is necessary for a unit facing combat where your life depends upon your squad mate's reactions. It is NOT necessary in a neighborhood karate school that teaches children.

Again from what's been said I see no bullying. I see an instructor correcting mistakes a kid is making and telling off kids who are misbehaving. If he wants to pull his kid out that's his choice but again from what I've read I've seen nothing wrong with what that instructor did

 

[Yokozuna514]

Because you get some top instructors who won't be told off by lesser ranks.

Many ways to deal with a situation. Telling off a senior rank may not be the best way. I favour a more diplomatic approach in this type of situation. It is always good policy to be professional with whomever you deal with but that is my approach. I acknowledge that not everyone looks at it that way..