Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[APL76]

They have movements in the form but they don't use it in chi sao, not originally anyway, I have seen many styles "Yipmanized" over the last few decades due to Yip Man's popularity. What those movements are used for I can't say because I really don't know anything about that style besides what can see on internet videos, perhaps someone who trained that style could give a proper explanation. Here are few first videos appeared in search.

Stories about "three heroes of Wing Chun" should be taken carefully because they came mainly from Yip Man's students and were later accepted by some other people in Foshan but people from Yuen Kai San lineage have different view of things, one of the Yuen Kai San's students said in an interview that Yip Man was Yuen Kai San's student, if I manage to find the video I will post it because I can't read Chinese and interview is in Chinese. Other sources from Yuen Kai San lineage state that Yuen and Yip families were friends but not Yuen Kai San and Yip Man , actually it was the opposite . Having in mind Chinese culture and especially Kung Fu culture , truth is usually extremely well hidden behind folk tales, hype and outright lies and takes a lot of patience and a lot of serious research to get small pieces of true events.

Yeah, that's how we have always seen it, Yip Man's father and Yuen Kay San's father it seems were on good terms, however it seems Yuen Kay San and Yip Man, perhaps not so much. Yuen Kay San taught Yip Man sticky hands reluctantly under pressure from both their fathers.

 

[hunschuld]

Do you have any Ip Men video on "cross arm sticky hand" training?

I doubt there are any videos of Yip Man doing WC at all. You have the videos he did shortly before his death and there are rumors Yip Bo Ching had monies of Yip performing every form. What happened to Yip Bo Ching's materials after his death is unknown. Rumor again is he had stacks of notebooks and movies. There are stories about people trying to get access to his house to get their hands on them after his death but who knows.The cross arm was part of YBC's WC I was shown.
As for who Yip taught cross hand to again these things are up in the air. He had private students who paid $$$ and they got stuff others didn't. He taught different things to so many that there is no way of knowing. My first teacher taught me in 1983. He had been a student of both Jui Wan and Moy Yat. I don't know which taught him the cross arm stuff or both.
The video of Bruce is from the mid 60's. Bruce trained with WSL and spent a lot of time with William Cheung and Hawkings Chueng The other video are people that do William Cheungs WC. So Bruce picked it up in the late 50's in Hong Kong before he came to the states so it came from those in his training circle and WSL was the clear senior. No way to know if he learned it from Yip Man or someone Yip had taught.

Cross arm is also part of the WC passed on by Lo Kwai that means is existed in the 1870's.

 

[hunschuld]

Agree that one should not try to establish arm contact in kicking range.

Very nice leg sweep. Is that you?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Very nice leg sweep. Is that you?

That's not me.

He had good timing. When his opponent stepped in right leg, he swept his opponent's left leg. When his opponent bent forward and tried to regain balance, he tried to pull his opponent downward. IMO, it's a good technique to deal with circle walking.

 

[hunschuld]

All good brother! lol thanks for the reply! I enjoy reading your posts.



Okay, If I understand you correctly, you only use shifting steps when: 1. you are already within bridge contact distance with the opponent to maintain your bridge contact distance, or 2. to close in just as the opponent is about to close into bridge contact distance with you?


Do you mean stepping 45 degrees diagonally forward on one side of a V with the point of the V facing you. - left or right with the same front foot as the side you step to. the right foot is forward if you step right, left if you step left. and then the rear leg uses a shifting step to attack through the opponents center and it becomes the front leg as you re-face the opponent from his flank?

( Yes, although in this case I am looking at as the opponent is facing me and I am going 45 into the inside of his lead arm as opposed to going to the outside of the lead arm. That is preferable but harder to do for a slow old man against a trained person who will move with you.. So my right bui attacks the inside of his left lead my left hand punches to his face. To hit me with his right he has to cross his body which will rob his right of some power. My left is also in the way of his right attacking my head and if have my shoulder in position my chin is protected. If I strike his left arm hard enough it will also pull his right away from me robbing his right of some power. My back foot then moves up and shifts into him on an angle left lops his right in a perfect world while my right attacks him on the side of his head, jaw or ear area either are good knockout area's.)

or more of a lateral side step across to the outside of the opponent's lead leg and then the rear leg uses a shifting step to attack through the opponents center and it becomes the front leg as you re-face the opponent from his flank?

( Lateral side step is also good. same basic mechanics as above)


Do you mean the shifting front step starting at .12 into the clip?

(No, the goal is to get up the opponents shirt so once the bridge is crossed I want to maintain the distance However stepping to avoid or create the angle is often better and faster than shifting. I must keep moving I don't want to create a static target and if he is powerful I don't want to stay in front so the front foot moves laterally and shifts into the opponent. the rear leg swings behind the front creating a new left forward stance for example. This also protects the rear leg from sweeps and take downs. This footwork is part of our dummy and pole form)



This makes total sense! I never really thought of this as part of the "shifting steps" category until you brought it up here. but I guess a "shifting step" can be classified as anytime you are shifting while stepping from one place to another?

 

[Jens]

I am referring to distance. If I get close and am able to still connect even if they move back. Also tend to use it as opponent closes distance so their energy is closing in.

Do you mean: you only use shifting steps when: 1. you are already within bridge contact distance with the opponent to maintain your bridge contact distance, or 2. to close in just as the opponent is about to close into bridge contact distance with you?

Also in which section of your forms are the "Shifting steps" first introduced?

In Lo Kwai wck, do you have a cross over leg stance to apply circle steps (not referring to huen ma) and spinning footwork?

Wing chun people tend to used different terminologies to describe the same things, What do you consider to be "triangle steps"?

 

[wckf92]

Also in which section of your forms are the "Shifting steps" first introduced?

If I understand correctly, I'd say the full expression of what he is talking about is from the knives (or pole, depending on the pattern).

In Lo Kwai wck, do you have a cross over leg stance to apply circle steps (not referring to huen ma) and spinning footwork?

There is a cross over step in the wooden man form.
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Great discussion Gents!

 

[hunschuld]

Crossover steps as in the photo are not something I endorse. They have never fit my body type and my physical abilities. I think they open you up for takedowns and throws and endanger your balance and are too slow. Where ever I would use the step other foot work does the same thing without the risks, however this is just me. I have taught them and I leave it to the individual to use them if they see fit.

You can use shifting steps anytime. My personal preference in contact or just before. We put footwork into 2 categories heavy and light. Heavy is used when in contact. In the video you posted we would classify the shifting step usage as heavy. They can be used light. When teaching I show both then show my personal preference and why. More athletic people can do all sorts of things effectively that I can't

Shifting steps are in the dummy and the weapon forms.

 

[Jens]

We put footwork into 2 categories heavy and light. Heavy is used when in contact. In the video you posted we would classify the shifting step usage as heavy. They can be used light. When teaching I show both then show my personal preference and why.

By "heavy", I assume you mean the stance being more sunken and rooted, vs "light" which is more upright and mobile closer to natural walking strides?

Shifting steps are in the dummy and the weapon forms.

Some view the stepping in the dummy set as "Triangle steps", while others view it as "Shifting steps". According to your understanding what's the difference between "Shifting steps", "Triangle steps", and "Circle steps"?

 

[hunschuld]

I have to think how to describe these things. Circle steps are larger involving the movement of the leg. leg comes in and then semi circles out. Triangle ,if I am the top of the triangle I move along the side while facing the target. Shifting, the foot does in essence its own small circle without the whole leg movement the foot carves a small semi circle.
Hope this makes sense.

yes you understand the heavy and light. When in contact I must sink when not in contact I must dart.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Circle steps are larger involving the movement of the leg. ...

Are you talking about some footwork like this?

- You have right foot forward.
- You step in your left foot.
- You move your right foot behind in a big circle.

This way you can move yourself completely to be outside of your opponent's attacking path.

 

[hunschuld]

No, The foot work you illustrated would be the facing footwork from the pole form or the swing step I described a few posts ago. when the left lands the foot shifts to face the opponent and the right swings in behind as you said it is used to get outside the attacking path but still keeping attacking distance.. It is a combination off Chum Kui footwork with pole footwork. It also appears in our dummy form .

 

[Jens]

Triangle ,if I am the top of the triangle I move along the side while facing the target.

By "I am the top of the triangle" I assume you meant you are on the apex of the triangle, then take a 45 degree diagonally backward triangle step along either side of the triangle.

Do you also have a forward version of triangle step where you start at the base, then take a 45 degree diagonally forward step, followed by a rapid step with your rear leg to cut in along either side of the triangle towards the apex (aka Saam Gok Ma)?

Shifting steps are in the dummy form.

Is it a "triangle step" or "shifting step" being done in the first section of the Yip Man dummy form where you step to the side and in towards the dummy trunk with tan sau and palm strike?

 

[Jens]

Are you talking about some footwork like this?

- You have right foot forward.
- You step in your left foot.
- You move your right foot behind in a big circle.

This way you can move yourself completely to be outside of your opponent's attacking path.

This looks identical to the "Crossover steps" I described earlier, you don't actually pause in a "cross stance", I only posted the cross stance photo for illustrative purposes to convey what I was trying to get across. This type of stepping is seen quite a bit in the gerk jong or plum flower posts training routine.

 

[hunschuld]

triangle step can be used in any direction

The first section of Yip Dummy step would be a circle step. from left bong left foot does chum kui step right then circle steps in

 

[Jens]

Shifting steps are in the dummy form.

Which section of the Yip Man dummy form are the "shifting steps" in?

Which section of the Yip Man dummy form are the "triangle steps" in?

 

[hunschuld]

I don't know Yip Fatshan dummy but HK dummy no shifting steps and no triangle steps

 

[Jens]

I don't know Yip Fatshan dummy but HK dummy no shifting steps and no triangle steps

I am familiar with how the backward version of Triangle step is done.
Can you describe how the forward version of triangle step is done?

 

[hunschuld]

at about 1:30 Lo Man Kam shows good triangle steeping.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Find this post in another forum. It's very interested. Any comment?
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"The Problem With Trapping & Why Late Bruce Lee Dismissed It:"

In late Original Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee, there was no trapping used anymore. This may shock some people, but according to Ted Wong and Jesse Glover, late Bruce Lee dismissed trapping all together because it didn't work under pressure. Also he stated to Taki Kimura 1969 that Chi Sao was out. Even in the fighting method books, with all the pictures form 1966-67, there was practically zero trapping, if something than very few single pac saos. Everything was based on attacking an opening or using feints, instead of trapping.

Trapping works only if the opponents would freeze their hands up and completely stop their attacking intention, instead of snapping or punching through and continuing attacking. Trapping fails completely if the attack is unpredicted and comes from all angles and with full force. Therefore it's a very unrealistic concept. But people love it, because it looks flashy. As a initial attack it can work if its simplified, but in that case anything can work, even a punch from a completely untrained person. However, trapping always means compromising own punching structure.