Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

[hunschuld]

Sounds similar to our crane footwork. Most videos I see of wing chun contain the footwork of the rooted snake, rarely the agile crane.

Our footwork Kuit. is Footwork must be light and fast. Snake footwork takes over after close contact is achieved. Crane footwork for long and mid range. Dog shakes water ging for long/mid range Snake strikes ging for close range

 

[Jens]

As for the 3 inside gates that is where I personally use them.

Do you also have a personal preference for using the version of "Shifting step" which starts at 0:12 into this clip on the 3 inside gates as well? or do you prefer to use this in the 6 gates outside the opponent’s arms?

 

[hunschuld]

For me its a matter of speed. I can not do shifting steeps as fast as I can do other footwork so I prefer footwork I can move faster with from distance/outside. For me shifting steps come in to play when the other person can not easily break distance. Also I always sink at the moment of contact and try to keep my hips below those of my opponent. So different footwork comes into play. Things depend upon your physical abilities

 

[Jens]

For me shifting steps come in to play when the other person can not easily break distance.

Not sure what you meant by this?? Did you mean when the other person's footwork is quick enough to get out of your range such as the mobility of a good western boxer who prefers to fight at range on the outside?

Do you have a preference for a specific version of the shifting step? if so which version?

I have a preference for the version of the "Shifting step" at the start of the clip, where your shift while slightly advancing one foot. I feel the version where you commit fully by changing lead legs at 0:12 into the clip takes too much time to recover your balance leaving you vulnerable in the process. and is the reason why in western boxing why you don't switch lead legs in front of the opponent, as he can catch you with a right cross in between your step. based on your experiences, what's your opinion on this?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Not sure what you mean by "break". Do you mean to "break free" and try to hit? To break structure (yours or theirs)? ...or something else?

Yes.

 

[hunschuld]

Sorry for the delay

Not sure what you meant by this?? Did you mean when the other person's footwork is quick enough to get out of your range such as the mobility of a good western boxer who prefers to fight at range on the outside?

( I am referring to distance. If I get close and am able to still connect even if they move back. Also tend to use it as opponent closes distance so their energy is closing in. I also sink while close. I have always assumed the other person is faster,stronger and knows more so I focused my training on where am I vulnerable and there for automatically attempt to close those avenues if that makes sense. For example I never block I cover areas.I punch with the left the right fills in the area where a hook or a counter straight punch could come.)



Do you have a preference for a specific version of the shifting step? if so which version?

( one thing I found very effect is when faced nose to nose is a chum kui step on an angle toward the outside of the opponents opposite leg and then the rear leg uses a shifting step to attack through the opponents center and it becomes the front leg. So the step you prefer going a bit more forward.Another I prefer is the shifting front steep. The opposite of the footwork at .12)

I have a preference for the version of the "Shifting step" at the start of the clip, where your shift while slightly advancing one foot. I feel the version where you commit fully by changing lead legs at 0:12 into the clip takes too much time to recover your balance leaving you vulnerable in the process. and is the reason why in western boxing why you don't switch lead legs in front of the opponent, as he can catch you with a right cross in between your step. based on your experiences, what's your opinion on this?

( I agree with you > When using the footwear at .12 the other person should be moving away and my front leg will become a a low front round kick or a sweep/trip)

 

[Svarog]

Chi sao had perfect sense while Wing Chun was used on the Red Boats. Narrow passages and extremely confined space simply prevented any kind of footwork besides front or back step and executing anything besides straight line attacks, for empty hands and weapons as well. In those conditions establishing and keeping contact was easy and being good in chi sao and using it especially in weapon fighting was a crucial advantage. Outside the confined space setting chi sao is pretty much useless. One other thing is interesting regarding chi sao. Rolling hands platform was invented by Yuen Kai San , all older styles have different platforms and don't use rolling hands. Yip Man obviously knew more than one Chi Sao platform but he taught only one, fairly new in his time. Why he did that will remain a mystery but it is interesting .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yip Man obviously knew more than one Chi Sao platform but he taught only one, fairly new in his time. Why he did that will remain a mystery but it is interesting .

What I don't understand is, Yip Man's single sticky hand only train your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm.

The training that your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm is missing.

Why?

 

[hunschuld]

KFW, Yip Man and other styles have extensive cross hand chi sau

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

KFW, Yip Man and other styles have extensive cross hand chi sau

Do you have any video to share?

If WC also trains right arm deal with right arm, the WC Bong Shou will not make sense. Your left hand can reach to your opponent right elbow joint.

In other words, the WC Bong Shou can only work in your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm. The WC Bong Shou won't work when your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm.

 

[Callen]

In those conditions establishing and keeping contact was easy and being good in chi sao and using it especially in weapon fighting was a crucial advantage. Outside the confined space setting chi sao is pretty much useless.

IMO, in the context of understanding Wing Chun, it's never useless.

Don't think of it as a compartmentalized method of fighting. It has always been utilized as a training tool. A single tool, out of many, that aids in the development of certain core attributes within the system. Obviously the attributes that Chi Sau reinforces can vary slightly depending on lineage, but that might be a discussion for another thread.

 

[wckf92]

Yip Man obviously knew more than one Chi Sao platform but he taught only one

Can you elaborate on this part?

 

[wckf92]

The training that your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm is missing.

?
No, it isn't missing. Perhaps you were never taught it, but it is definitely not missing.

 

[wckf92]

The WC Bong Shou won't work when your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm.

I have to disagree.

 

[Svarog]

Can you elaborate on this part?

Yip Man was a student of Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chan So and today descendants of both use different chi sao platforms from Yip Man's. You can check Chan Yiu Min's style , Yiu Min was Chan Wah Shun's son and Ng Chan So taught Yiu family so you can also check Yiu Choi\Yiu Kay style. Non of these styles have rolling hands platform, and Yip Man had to know their way of Chi Sao. The only style that has rolling hands almost identical to Yip Man's style is Yuen Kai San's style, on the other hand style taught by Yuen Kai San's brother Yuen Chai Wan doesn't have rolling hands and he didn't teach it, not in China nor in Vietnam . Yip Man could learn rolling hands only from Yuen Kai San or ( but this is extremely remote possibility) they invented it together.

 

[Danny T]

The training that your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm is missing.

If WC also trains right arm deal with right arm, the WC Bong Shou will not make sense. Your left hand can reach to your opponent right elbow joint.

In other words, the WC Bong Shou can only work in your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm. The WC Bong Shou won't work when your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm.

Uhh... No, I disagree, you are incorrect with this. Your lack of wing chun knowledge creates incorrect opinions.

 

[hunschuld]

Yip Man was a student of Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chan So and today descendants of both use different chi sao platforms from Yip Man's. You can check Chan Yiu Min's style , Yiu Min was Chan Wah Shun's son and Ng Chan So taught Yiu family so you can also check Yiu Choi\Yiu Kay style. Non of these styles have rolling hands platform, and Yip Man had to know their way of Chi Sao. The only style that has rolling hands almost identical to Yip Man's style is Yuen Kai San's style, on the other hand style taught by Yuen Kai San's brother Yuen Chai Wan doesn't have rolling hands and he didn't teach it, not in China nor in Vietnam . Yip Man could learn rolling hands only from Yuen Kai San or ( but this is extremely remote possibility) they invented it together.

Not really all true. You will see the Yip man rolling performed in the Yui Choi Chum Kui form

at 34 seconds in or so.

Yui Choi ,YKS and YM all trained at Ng Chan So school along with almost every other wing chun person in Fatshan at that time Jui Chow and Jui Wan were there to for example. It was a hang out. The rolling was a development of working out and some took it in one direction and some another. Chi Sao itself existed for many years prior, Families just developed their own versions based on their own development intent.

 

[hunschuld]

Do you have any video to share?

If WC also trains right arm deal with right arm, the WC Bong Shou will not make sense. Your left hand can reach to your opponent right elbow joint.

In other words, the WC Bong Shou can only work in your right arm deal with your opponent's left arm. The WC Bong Shou won't work when your right arm deal with your opponent's right arm.

I don't think I understand the point you are making. Does wing chun operate in a square body position from your point of view? Bong sao has many uses and energies. There are many examples of Right bong against left arm. The dummy form is full of them.

The picture seems to be an example of Peng energy. Wing Chun does not do this and does not use energy in this way. Bong would receive and redirect but not yield. Bong is very temporary. It leave the body vulnerable to all sorts of nasty things that is why Chum Kui teaches different bongs but the elbow always drops.

I have all sorts of videos however almost everything I have is on VHS so I can't share. I do have some things burned on CD but I have not reviewed them in years. I will try to look through them time allowing.

 

[wckf92]

One thing to remember about Bong sau...the B in Bong means "ballistic" haha. In my upbringing, using Bong sau is quite energetic, even explosive at times. Like @hunschuld said...there are many ways to interpret/use Bong.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think I understand the point you are making. Does wing chun operate in a square body position from your point of view? Bong sao has many uses and energies. There are many examples of Right bong against left arm. The dummy form is full of them.

What if your opponent is not in square body? Your opponent may not be a WC guy.

I'm talking about when you right arm touch on your opponent's right arm, you cannot use Bong Shou.

Can Bruce's opponent uses WC Bong Shou to deal with Bruce's punch in this video? Of course he can. But how can he prevent Bruce from using Bruce's left hand to push up on his right elbow joint when he uses Bong Shou?

In other words, can WC Bong Shou be a solution here?