Simon Curran
2nd Black Belt
You would probably know that better than me sir, like I say I just know how it feels...Doc said:
What about the soft area just under the zyphoid process and above the stomach? When struck there, (under the sternum!) it feels like the breath is kno0wcked out, can;t breathe... isn't that the solar plexus?? The sternum is bone, you know when you hit it vs the soft flesh.
????
-David
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-David
Language is always a devil.
Solar Plexus - that Portion of the prevertebral plexus which lies in front and to the sides of the aorta at the origin of the celiac trunk and superior mesenteric and renal arteries. It contains celiac ganglia, the superior mesenteric ganglia and small unnamed ganglionic masses. Branches of the plexus extend along the adjacent artery. (Plexus means network or tangle) (solar refers to the radiating away from the center like light does from the sun.)
This net work will be very difficult to access from the outside because it is deep in our abdomen. Extreme focal blunt force injury should be needed to actually injure this plexus.
Colloquial use of "Solar Plexus" refers to the soft spot in the central upper abdomen. Strikes here may cause dyspnea and nausea. I can find no convincing proof that strikes here cause diaphragmatic paralysis and suspect that the dyspnea results from guarding against pain and not using the diaphragm to breathe. In fact if I have a student balled up after such a strike getting them to stretch upright and breathe with their belly (actually with their diaphragm) usually solves the problem. The nausea probably is secondary to direct stomache trauma especially if the stomache is still full.
Rib injuries are discussed well above but are probably separate from the SolarPlexus discussion. The Xyphoid is tough and it would probably take a high velocity piece of lead to shatter it and send it into the Plexus.
Hope this is helpful.
Jeff M.D.,
Family Practice
Just a simple country doctor but as county coroner get more than my share of oportunities to view the results of trauma.
Solar Plexus - that Portion of the prevertebral plexus which lies in front and to the sides of the aorta at the origin of the celiac trunk and superior mesenteric and renal arteries. It contains celiac ganglia, the superior mesenteric ganglia and small unnamed ganglionic masses. Branches of the plexus extend along the adjacent artery. (Plexus means network or tangle) (solar refers to the radiating away from the center like light does from the sun.)
This net work will be very difficult to access from the outside because it is deep in our abdomen. Extreme focal blunt force injury should be needed to actually injure this plexus.
Colloquial use of "Solar Plexus" refers to the soft spot in the central upper abdomen. Strikes here may cause dyspnea and nausea. I can find no convincing proof that strikes here cause diaphragmatic paralysis and suspect that the dyspnea results from guarding against pain and not using the diaphragm to breathe. In fact if I have a student balled up after such a strike getting them to stretch upright and breathe with their belly (actually with their diaphragm) usually solves the problem. The nausea probably is secondary to direct stomache trauma especially if the stomache is still full.
Rib injuries are discussed well above but are probably separate from the SolarPlexus discussion. The Xyphoid is tough and it would probably take a high velocity piece of lead to shatter it and send it into the Plexus.
Hope this is helpful.
Jeff M.D.,
Family Practice
Just a simple country doctor but as county coroner get more than my share of oportunities to view the results of trauma.
Doc
Senior Master
Hey - that's what I said! (Except for the country doctor part.Kenpodoc said:
The "solar plexus' is virtually impossible to access through human produced "blunt force trauma" absent falling from height and striking an object, or a similarly induced situation in rapid deceleration in an auto accident.Thanks Doc
PS:
I agree about the posture affecting breathing. Certain strikes or combinations thereof have the affect of "sealing the breath," as it is called from the old Chinese - and there are specific postures, movement, and breath exercises that will restore or "unseal the breath" in an instant. My students are conditioned to perform the function themselves when they are struck to that degree during class. In fact one of my browns had the occasion to use it last night. (I told him not to be bring a girlfriend to watch class. Fortunately she left before it happened.)
Colloquilisms are fine unless you're teaching on a level that requires deeper understanding. On the other side of the coin, students have become accustomed to "understanding" everything as they learn, and that is a bad idea. Information should be disseminated on an "as needed" basis, leaving students free to concentrate on "how" to perform their physical movements correctly. Concentrating on "how" to make self-defense actually work is a much higher priority for students than understanding "why" what they do works.
Reality suggests as students progress, more and more information will become generally available. Instructors will have more of this information however even they have limited information of "why," as they struggle and concentrate on becoming teachers of "how" to teach execution. True senior professors know the "whys" while many with lottsa stripes know only "how" to put stripes on belts better than anything.
"General knowledge always produces general results." - Ed Parker Sr.
I knew I was just rephrasing what you had said. :asian: I agree that too much time is spent on why's but I can't help it. I started saying "Why." at age 1 and haven't been able to stop. There's nothing wrong with asking Why unless it stops you from learning how. In medicine I frequently see both patients and doctors reject healing processes that work just because it doesn't fit their preconceived theorys.Doc said:Hey - that's what I said! (Except for the country doctor part.
Thanks Doc
PS:
I agree about the posture affecting breathing. Certain strikes or combinations thereof have the affect of "sealing the breath," as it is called from the old Chinese - and there are specific postures, movement, and breath exercises that will restore or "unseal the breath" in an instant. My students are conditioned to perform the function themselves when they are struck to that degree during class. In fact one of my browns had the occasion to use it last night. (I told him not to be bring a girlfriend to watch class. Fortunately she left before it happened.)
Colloquilisms are fine unless you're teaching on a level that requires deeper understanding. On the other side of the coin, students have become accustomed to "understanding" everything as they learn, and that is a bad idea. Information should be disseminated on an "as needed" basis, leaving students free to concentrate on "how" to perform their physical movements correctly. Concentrating on "how" to make self-defense actually work is a much higher priority for students than understanding "why" what they do works.
Reality suggests as students progress, more and more information will become generally available. Instructors will have more of this information however even they have limited information of "why," as they struggle and concentrate on becoming teachers of "how" to teach execution. True senior professors know the "whys" while many with lottsa stripes know only "how" to put stripes on belts better than anything.
"General knowledge always produces general results." - Ed Parker Sr.
Hope to meet you some day,
Jeff
Doc
Senior Master
I totally agree Doc. Definitely looking forward to hooking up. I like hanging with you smart guys - makes me look smart too!Kenpodoc said:
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Dang it, I missed this one. Too damn busy with work, where the PC's don't function. Ah, well. It was good.
With all reespects to my distinguished colleagues, I'll add my own thoughts.
The body has some "reflexes" (put in quotes, because not really reflexes, but responses with a certain amount of predictable automaticity) that are designed to prevent the onset of FURTHER injury. Take a blown disc for example. Go back 5000 years. You're chasing a gazelle with a stick, turn wrong, and herniate a disc in your back. The extent of this potentially paralyzing injury is not known, and the injury itself may be quite serious. The stretch-sensitive nerve surrounding the circumference of the disc sends a signal to the spinal cord that essentially says, "Wait! Something's amiss!". The spinal cord, in turn, sends a signal to the deep intrinsic muscles spanning the joint in which the disc lives to spasm; to splint the joint via hypertonicity, and also to send very serious pain signals to the brain. Why? If you keep running with a blown disc, you could damage the spinal cord itself...part of the central nervous system...the only organ system in the body that nature decided was so important, that it encased it in a vault of bone, from head, to tail. Literally.
Muscles only know how to do one thing in response to insult or injury: contract. This is the splinting or spasm people feel when they pull their back. It's the bodies way of saying, "Stop what you're doing, dummy. It's bad for you."
Side note for a minute. In embryology, there is a name for "some buncha cells that started off in the same cluster together, before differentiation". Referred pain is pain shared among these cell groups due to shared innervation. It's why the left shoulder and/or jaw will hurt during a heart attack; they were all baby-cells together, before some went off to become shoulder tissues, some went off to become jaw tissues, and others went off to become heart & pericardium.
Back to the breadbasket...the stomach has an ongoing ball of air in it, called the meganblas (sp?...too wiped to look it up). Guts are stretch-sensitive. Because they stretch and shrink in the course of the day just taking care of digestive business, it usually takes a pretty good stretch to cause pain. But it is one of the few stimuli they are definitely programmed to respond to (distention & ischemia). Put it together, and what do you get?
Punch -> compresses the meganblaas, causing distension of the upper tissues of the stomach itself -> referred reflexive hypertonicity of the diaphragm, as the bodies way of getting you to "stop what you're doing! It's bad for you!".
Diaphragmatic spasm unlocks easily, provided there is no pressing injury to the gut. But note: bending forward in pain and grasping the waist with both hands provides an excellent protective position against the occurrance of any further stomach injury.
Regards,
D.
With all reespects to my distinguished colleagues, I'll add my own thoughts.
The body has some "reflexes" (put in quotes, because not really reflexes, but responses with a certain amount of predictable automaticity) that are designed to prevent the onset of FURTHER injury. Take a blown disc for example. Go back 5000 years. You're chasing a gazelle with a stick, turn wrong, and herniate a disc in your back. The extent of this potentially paralyzing injury is not known, and the injury itself may be quite serious. The stretch-sensitive nerve surrounding the circumference of the disc sends a signal to the spinal cord that essentially says, "Wait! Something's amiss!". The spinal cord, in turn, sends a signal to the deep intrinsic muscles spanning the joint in which the disc lives to spasm; to splint the joint via hypertonicity, and also to send very serious pain signals to the brain. Why? If you keep running with a blown disc, you could damage the spinal cord itself...part of the central nervous system...the only organ system in the body that nature decided was so important, that it encased it in a vault of bone, from head, to tail. Literally.
Muscles only know how to do one thing in response to insult or injury: contract. This is the splinting or spasm people feel when they pull their back. It's the bodies way of saying, "Stop what you're doing, dummy. It's bad for you."
Side note for a minute. In embryology, there is a name for "some buncha cells that started off in the same cluster together, before differentiation". Referred pain is pain shared among these cell groups due to shared innervation. It's why the left shoulder and/or jaw will hurt during a heart attack; they were all baby-cells together, before some went off to become shoulder tissues, some went off to become jaw tissues, and others went off to become heart & pericardium.
Back to the breadbasket...the stomach has an ongoing ball of air in it, called the meganblas (sp?...too wiped to look it up). Guts are stretch-sensitive. Because they stretch and shrink in the course of the day just taking care of digestive business, it usually takes a pretty good stretch to cause pain. But it is one of the few stimuli they are definitely programmed to respond to (distention & ischemia). Put it together, and what do you get?
Punch -> compresses the meganblaas, causing distension of the upper tissues of the stomach itself -> referred reflexive hypertonicity of the diaphragm, as the bodies way of getting you to "stop what you're doing! It's bad for you!".
Diaphragmatic spasm unlocks easily, provided there is no pressing injury to the gut. But note: bending forward in pain and grasping the waist with both hands provides an excellent protective position against the occurrance of any further stomach injury.
Regards,
D.
A couple of comments.
1. Meganblass is not a common medical term and I could not find it in my medical texts. The stomache is just a bag of smoothe muscle and when empty would be very difficult to damage without penetrating injury. When distended it can press againstboth the abdominal wall anteriorly and the spine posteriorly. In that case it technically could be damaged with blunt force trauma. Even with a full stomache, trauma would be more likely to cause vomiting as the increased pressure forced material out the root of least resistance (the esophogus.) This is a good reason why carbonated drinks do not enhance ones ability to take a punch.
2. In a lean individual the stomache muscles (Rectus Abdominus) help protect the underlying organs by contracting and forming a shield. In obese people the overlying fat and the fat infiltrating between organs in the abdominal cavity form a significant protective layer. This means that an abdominal strike which might drop even a well trained fit thin person would be unlikely to affect a sumo wrestler. The practical application of this is that the leather jacketed obese beer bellied Motorcyclist you offend in the bar may not respond to your best solar plexus strike.
3. I would add to what Dr. Dave says above by saying that muscles have 2 responses available, Contracting and Not contracting (relaxing). In the case of the "solar plexus" injury (colloquial not anatomic) I believe the natural response is for the abdominal muscles to splint and the diaphragm to relax. This causes the recipient to (as Doc pointed out) ball up in a protective manner but it also "seals the breath" (a nice descriptive term I will steal). The diaphragm is not paralized but the body just chooses not to use it. This is a natural response which can be overcome with practice and or direction from a partner.
I think the most important lesson from this is that not everyone responds the same way to a strike to the solar plexus. The same strike might be devastating to one person and barely register on another. As I review the EPAK techniques as I know them I think it is interesting that solar plexus shots are not used as technique ending closers but generally followed by other strikes. Conquering Shield (without extension) ends with an elbow but is set up by the raking backknuckle which should cause the abdominal muscles to relax as the head reflexly moves back away from the trauma. This would "open" up the "solar Plexus" to trauma by relaxing the protective overlying muscles.
Respectfully submitted,
Jeff
1. Meganblass is not a common medical term and I could not find it in my medical texts. The stomache is just a bag of smoothe muscle and when empty would be very difficult to damage without penetrating injury. When distended it can press againstboth the abdominal wall anteriorly and the spine posteriorly. In that case it technically could be damaged with blunt force trauma. Even with a full stomache, trauma would be more likely to cause vomiting as the increased pressure forced material out the root of least resistance (the esophogus.) This is a good reason why carbonated drinks do not enhance ones ability to take a punch.
2. In a lean individual the stomache muscles (Rectus Abdominus) help protect the underlying organs by contracting and forming a shield. In obese people the overlying fat and the fat infiltrating between organs in the abdominal cavity form a significant protective layer. This means that an abdominal strike which might drop even a well trained fit thin person would be unlikely to affect a sumo wrestler. The practical application of this is that the leather jacketed obese beer bellied Motorcyclist you offend in the bar may not respond to your best solar plexus strike.
3. I would add to what Dr. Dave says above by saying that muscles have 2 responses available, Contracting and Not contracting (relaxing). In the case of the "solar plexus" injury (colloquial not anatomic) I believe the natural response is for the abdominal muscles to splint and the diaphragm to relax. This causes the recipient to (as Doc pointed out) ball up in a protective manner but it also "seals the breath" (a nice descriptive term I will steal). The diaphragm is not paralized but the body just chooses not to use it. This is a natural response which can be overcome with practice and or direction from a partner.
I think the most important lesson from this is that not everyone responds the same way to a strike to the solar plexus. The same strike might be devastating to one person and barely register on another. As I review the EPAK techniques as I know them I think it is interesting that solar plexus shots are not used as technique ending closers but generally followed by other strikes. Conquering Shield (without extension) ends with an elbow but is set up by the raking backknuckle which should cause the abdominal muscles to relax as the head reflexly moves back away from the trauma. This would "open" up the "solar Plexus" to trauma by relaxing the protective overlying muscles.
Respectfully submitted,
Jeff
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka
Senior Master
Contrast radiology; normal finding in vivo, not observed as in cadaveric evaluation. After barium swallow, plain film radiograph of abdominal/thoracic cavity will show what looks like a small mushroom cloud-shaped thingy that starts in the known boundaries of the stomache, but seems to extend further superiorly on the left than the normal boundaries of the stomach are considered to occupy. Higher than the esophageal haitus, it doesn't seek an exit via that route on compression. Just hurts.Kenpodoc said:
D.
Doc
Senior Master
Yeah it's an old post, and one that you need to read from beginning to end to answer your question.
I have seen people go down with a variety of strikes to the Solar Plexus. The more accuracy, the more penetration. With enough power, anywhere close to the vicinity will do.
The solar plexus is not a high percentage target. I've been dropped once, having been hit there, in about 20+ years of sparring. I can tell you that, when it works, it works well.
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Vertical punch (AKA Thrust punch) works well also the reverse punch/uppercut (AKA back two knucle) could also get the job done as far as handstrikes, For kicks I would say a front ball kick, back kick, rising knee, and roundhouse ball kick could also work.
Chris
Doc
Senior Master
You cannot strike someone in the solar plexus because it is not physically accessible by punching or human striking.
Nevermind...
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Doc
Senior Master
No you can't.
Because of the position of the solar plexus it is not possible to actually hit it directly because of its location below the diaphragm. It lies mainly on the front of the aorta, where this main artery enters the abdomen by passing down through the diaphragm, and behind the stomach.
However, a penetrating strike to the upper part of the abdomen just below the xiphoid process, will increase abdominal pressure which may put pressure on the solar plexus causing temporary paralysis of the diaphragm or the 'winding' effect. Another effect here is that pressure on the solar plexus can cause a drop in blood pressure similar to a strike to the neck. That would explain why I went straight to the floor when I was hit. Recently I was at a Systema seminar where I was hit by Alex Kostic. That hit was nowhere near as hard but had a similar winding effect that lasted some time but didn't cause me to fall.
An analogy might be, a strike to the jaw does not directly hit the brain. The shock is transmitted to the brain disrupting the nervous system and causing the ko.
The angle and direction of the strike is also critical, which would back up the idea that it is the increase in abdominal pressure that causes the damage.
However, a penetrating strike to the upper part of the abdomen just below the xiphoid process, will increase abdominal pressure which may put pressure on the solar plexus causing temporary paralysis of the diaphragm or the 'winding' effect. Another effect here is that pressure on the solar plexus can cause a drop in blood pressure similar to a strike to the neck. That would explain why I went straight to the floor when I was hit. Recently I was at a Systema seminar where I was hit by Alex Kostic. That hit was nowhere near as hard but had a similar winding effect that lasted some time but didn't cause me to fall.
An analogy might be, a strike to the jaw does not directly hit the brain. The shock is transmitted to the brain disrupting the nervous system and causing the ko.
The angle and direction of the strike is also critical, which would back up the idea that it is the increase in abdominal pressure that causes the damage.
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