At what point should you refuse or stop teaching someone martial arts?

[Gerry Seymour]

- MA expert, most of the time, he will kick back at you (because his leg is longer than your arm).

Just to be clear, I assume you’re taking somewhat figuratively, as not all of us will go for a kick as first response. The probable responses will vary by training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When I invited my SC teacher to live in my house, I had to pay his round trip airline ticket from Taipei, Taiwan to Austin, Texas. During his staying, I took care of his room and board. Every month I had to pay him $1,800.

That seems more than excessive.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is my concern.

If the government policy is the following:

If you can release a slave, the government will reward you $1,000. A rich person releases many slaves. But he doesn't want to accept the reward. This rich guy develops good reputation. Everybody say that he is a great person. What will happen after that?

Some rich people will still release slaves and refuse to accept the reward. But for those who wants to release slaves, but also wants to accept reward, since accepting reward will give them bad reputation, this group of people may stop releasing slave. At the end, the number of people who is willing to release slave will decrease. The slave end up getting less released.

I don’t think any of that is remotely applicable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which scenario do you prefer?

You applied $120,000 student loan to finish your college.

1. You then work for free for the rest of your life. (How will you be able to pay back your student loan?)
2. You require reasonable salary for your work.

I will take 2 over 1.

You make this sound so binary. How about this:

1. You go to college abs while there take some theatre courses which cost you money.
   
2. After you graduate, you volunteer with a local theatre group to help with tech work for free.

This is me. Who is injured by this? Not my brother or sister-in-law, both of whom earn a living in theatre.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That seems more than excessive.

It's Chinese culture for Traditional CMA. I don't know how many still follow it. I don't like it because it becomes an easy way to exploit some one. If I invite someone to my home then they are getting a free room and free meal. I won't pay a guest in my home for being a guest. That means that I treat the teacher better than my own family. That doesn't sit well for me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That seems more than excessive.

My old teacher got mad at us because we didn't pay his hotel.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Here is my concern.

If the government policy is the following:

If you can release a slave, the government will reward you $1,000. A rich person releases many slaves. But he doesn't want to accept the reward. This rich guy develops good reputation. Everybody say that he is a great person. What will happen after that?

Some rich people will still release slaves and refuse to accept the reward. But for those who wants to release slaves, but also wants to accept reward, since accepting reward will give them bad reputation, this group of people may stop releasing slave. At the end, the number of people who is willing to release slave will decrease. The slave end up getting less released.

Wow you might be beating rat's accomplishment of worst logic in this thread.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Forgot the wording i used, i thought you mis interperted it, but its sound logic.(and you didnt mis interpret it) Predoposes you to a certain set of methodologies pending what you have done which can be used to advantage.

I wouldnt use abuse there either, but if you are going to do something might as well do it right.

First, the logic isn't sound. Second, if the logic was sound, it would only work if you trained at the exact same place as the guy you're fighting at the bar. But again that still wouldn't work. I'd much rather fight, say, you then someone who I've trained with for a couple years since there's a much better chance one of them will beat me.

Also, glad to know you think abusers should be better at abusing. And that is the word to use, since that's what you were referring to.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

you have a near gurantee for the second one, you dont the first, and thats one instance anyway. If you start getting into it, you start becoming predeposed to diffrent behaviours, if you both do boxing you know generally what methodologies a boxer uses, if one does and the other doesnt, neither knows what they might do. Just note, thats not they only do one thing in response to that, but closer to a scale of things they might do and might not do. Ehat precisely they might do is (insert shurg here) kind of irrelivent to go to that much detail here.

I just thought of a comparison for your logic. People say that an professional poker player would rather go against professionals then newbies/amateurs, because they can predict what they will do. That's objectively not true, and if you know you're going against someone new, 99 times out of 100 you'll end up stealing all the newbies money.

Similarly look at fencing or TKD. Newer people are awkward to go against, but they're never going to beat someone actually good at it. Basically any skill, someone with training and experience beats someone who doesn't have those.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes! As far as I know, They met once a week for many years until David C. K. Lin passed away.

In NYC, Taiji teacher Cheng Man-Ching used to charge $4,000 to learn his Taiji form. He then charged another $4,000 to polish student's Taiji form. One of Cheng Man-Ching's students told me this.

Wow. Those are people with a lot more disposable income than I have. I paid $25 per session for private lessons for several years, that was about all I could handle.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes! As far as I know, They met once a week for many years until David C. K. Lin passed away.

In NYC, Taiji teacher Cheng Man-Ching used to charge $4,000 to learn his Taiji form. He then charged another $4,000 to polish student's Taiji form. One of Cheng Man-Ching's students told me this.

I think perhaps people could get away with this more readily a few decades ago when Asian martial arts were less prevalent in the US. There was a mystique associated with them and their availability was much much less. Now, schools are common as dirt. If someone tried to charge those prices, people would just walk down the street to the next school. Very few people would decide that this particular instructor is so much better than all the others, that his fee is worth it. The instructor may in truth be much better, but most people would not be able to recognize that, and could never justify the money for him.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It's not the money. It's the principle - There is no free lunch on this planet. Students won't appreciate your knowledge if they don't have to pay you.

My students don't appreciate my knowledge? Bluntly, that's horse crap. Since a large number of them have been from families who couldn't afford the cost of a for-profit school, I would say they appreciated the training even more.

I've paid instructors. I've learned for free from others. The exchange of money had zero impact on the training or respect for the teacher. Zip. Nada. Bupkiss. None.

Teaching for free means:
1 - I don't have to spend time doing book keeping.
2 - I don't have to spend time checking to see who can come to class and who cannot.
3 - I can teach people who would otherwise never be able to study the arts.
4 - I have no financial incentive to promote someone who might be of marginal ability.

It works for me. And for others. For you to sit there and say our students don't appreciate what they're given, when you've never even met one, let alone discussed this issue with them, is sheer buffoonery.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's Chinese culture for Traditional CMA. I don't know how many still follow it. I don't like it because it becomes an easy way to exploit some one. If I invite someone to my home then they are getting a free room and free meal. I won't pay a guest in my home for being a guest. That means that I treat the teacher better than my own family. That doesn't sit well for me.

I could see also paying a bit if they were teaching me (and the room/board wasn't equivalent to their normal fees). But given no rent or food expense, that amount was essentially a living wage.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My old teacher got mad at us because we didn't pay his hotel.

If I have a guest instructor in town, I'd expect to pay something, even if only helping defray some of the travel expense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wow. Those are people with a lot more disposable income than I have. I paid $25 per session for private lessons for several years, that was about all I could handle.

I've paid a bit more than that, and charged a bit more even, but only a bit. For teaching "private" group lessons, I could see the higher fee.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wow you might be beating rat's accomplishment of worst logic in this thread.

The Goodness-Harm Quadrant.

By refusing the reward, you lead others to think accepting the reward money is being greedy.

This logic was formed over 2,500 years ago (551 BC - 479 BC). I just quote the famous ancient Chinese stories.

1. Zi Gong released slave (子贡赎人), and
2. Zi Lu accepted cow (子路受牛).

“In performing good deeds, there is also what seems to be goodness, but is actually not, and what does not appear to be goodness, but actually is.

1. Unintentional Harm - Zi Gong released slave:

For example, in the Spring-Autumn Period, there was a country named Lu. Because there were other countries which took their citizens as slaves or servants, the country of Lu made a law which rewarded those who paid the ransom to regain the freedom of their fellow citizens. At that time, Confucius had a very rich student named Zi Gong. Although Zi Gong paid for the ransom to free his people, he did not accept the reward for doing such a deed. He did it out of good intentions, seeking only to help others and not for the reward money.

But when Confucius heard this, he was very unhappy and scolded him, saying,

‘You acted wrongly in this matter. When saints and sages undertake anything, they strive to improve the social demeanor, teaching the common folk to be good and decent people. One should not do something just because one feels like it. In the country of Lu, the poor outnumber the wealthy. By refusing the reward, you lead others to think accepting the reward money is being greedy. Thus, all the poor people and others who do not wish to appear greedy will hesitate to pay for ransom in the future. Only very rich people will have a chance to practice this deed. If this happens, no one will pay the ransom to free our people again.’

2. Intentional Goodness - Zi Lu accepted cow:

Another student of Confucius, Zi Lu, once saw a man drowning in a river and went forth to rescue him. Later, the man thanked him by giving him a cow as a token of gratitude. Zi Lu accepted the gift. Confucius was happy when he heard this and said,

‘In the future, people will be willing and eager to help those who are drowning in deep waters or lakes.’

If we look from the view of the common people, Zi Gong, who did not accept the reward money, was good. And Zi Lu, who accepted the cow, was not as good. Who would have known that Confucius praised Zi Lu instead and scolded Zi Gong?

From this, we can see that those who practice kind deeds must not only look at the present outcome, but should consider the act’s effect in the long run. One should not only consider one’s own gain and loss, but should look to see the impact made on the public. What we do right now may be good, but with passing years, it may inflict harm upon others. Therefore, what seems like goodness may in fact be the opposite. And what appears to be the opposite of goodness may someday turn out to be goodness done after all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I could see also paying a bit if they were teaching me (and the room/board wasn't equivalent to their normal fees). But given no rent or food expense, that amount was essentially a living wage.

The teacher showed up with little announcement. Had he mentioned ahead of time we could have made adjustments in spending so that the school dues would cover the cost.
The most that we could do was to pay for dinner and everyone pitched in with their own money. We didn't have enough students to cover plane ticket and hotel. My relationship with the building owner was good enough to where he would reduce the rent if needed. But I have to let him know ahead of time and the reason why.

 

[Buka]

I don't understand the logic here. Why do you want to teach for free? If you don't care about the money, you can donate your earning to Salvation Army.

It's not the money. It's the principle - There is no free lunch on this planet. Students won't appreciate your knowledge if they don't have to pay you.

I know you have a deep seated love for Martial Arts. I do, too. All our circumstances are different.

No free lunch? Sure there is, come to my house, I’ll feed you. I’ve had students live at my mothers house for upwards of a year at a time. They all became “ her boys”. It was known to just about everyone as Ma Buka’s House for the Weak and the Wicked. (They made that up, not me) And they were under the same strict rules they had at the dojo.

Why would I do something like that? Because I was in a position to do so at the time.

As far as them not appreciating the knowledge, I beg to differ. They still write me, their kids (now adults) still write me. They have gone on to live, successful, productive, happy lives. One of them is my attorney. He has never charged me a dime, is an absolute gentleman and a savage in the courtroom.

One time, back in the day, a student, twenty years old, came running into the dojo, obviously scared out of his mind. Someone had chased him there. The dojo was next to the district police station and there were a handful of cops training inside at that moment. We went charging out, saw a car speeding away, got a look at the driver. We knew he was a drug dealer because he had the look. Yeah, yeah, I know, it’s wrong to profile. (BS)

Anyway, we all went back in and had a long talk with the student. He owed them 250 bucks. We had it paid off, got word to them that if they ever came back to anywhere even near us, that it would not go well for them. Everything worked out, we got the student in rehab, brought him back the day he got out yada, yada, yada.

I was living here on the islands when 9/11 happened. I went back east shortly after and went back into Law Enforcement. Moved back into what had been my childhood home which I had been renting. I’m outside, on my hands and knees pulling weeds from around the bottom of the fence.

A passing car screeches to a stop and backs up. I’m thinking “what the hell is this?”

A family gets out. A mom, dad and three children, the kids ten to fifteen years old. As they approach they start to cry. That’s when I recognized the dad. He had been the twenty year old who the drug dealers chased into the dojo.

He was now late forties, a successful business man, a good family man. His family started to hug me, crying, thanking me for saving their dad's life when he was young. Wasn’t long till I started to cry, too. Actually felt a little guilty because I hadn’t even thought of him in twenty years. Apparently, he was honest with his family and wanted to make sure none of the kids took the wrong path like he almost had. They knew of me like I was a family member.

I’ll take that over a paycheck any day.

Another time, the Knife Fighting group (we called them “tribes”) I trained with was having a Christmas get together with tribes from all over New England. It was held in a big restaurant/night club. There were twenty five tables of us, a lot of whom never met before. There also were tables of people spread throughout that were not part of our tribes.

I can feel someone staring at my back. The hairs on my neck were standing up. I drop my napkin and pick it up, taking a peek under my arm. It’s a big, serious looking man, and he is staring at me intensely. All I’m thinking is, “Son, you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, staring at the wrong people.” (especially since a lot of us were cops and were all carrying)

I feel him get up and start to approach. So I just stood up and turned. I don’t recognize him. And he is a big, strong, fit, serious looking dude. Then he spoke, asked if I was Mister Buka. I recognized the voice. It was Sean.

Trained him as a kid. His folks split up, couldn’t pay the paltry tuition we charged and he wouldn’t be able to come anymore. I insisted that he did, that his tuition had been taken care of. Just get your butt to the dojo and don’t you dare let your school work suffer or I’ll beat your narrow ***.

He was now a Boston cop, leader of a SWAT team. Told me that what we had done for him at the dojo completely changed his life. And something he learned at the dojo saved his life when he got shot as a cop.
You can’t make that ship up. I’ll take that over a paycheck any day of the week.

Besides, if you go into Martial Arts to make money, man, have a got a bridge I want to sell you.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know you have a deep seated love for Martial Arts. I do, too. All our circumstances are different.

No free lunch? Sure there is, come to my house, I’ll feed you.

I can vouch for this. The last time I was on the Island, Buka fed me as soon as I got off the plane. I hadn’t even left the airport yet. And damn, was it good.

Hoping to get back after Covid is under control.

 

[Flying Crane]

I had a student for a few years. Young guy, was sincere in his training. I never charged him a dime for training. I just enjoyed working with him. He later spent a couple years in China teaching English. I welcomed him to train with anyone he found there. He dabbled a little, but not anything serious. He didn’t find anything better than what I had given him.

When he returned from China he brought a young woman with him who became his wife. They were in a lurch and needed a place to stay. We had an apartment in our house that we were renting to vacationers on AirBnB. He asked if they could stay a while. We said sure, move in, it’s fully furnished. We had to charge them rent because we couldn’t afford the house without the income, but we gave them an excellent rate and never raised it in the two years they were there.

Sometimes you do something because it’s the right thing to do.