At what point should you refuse or stop teaching someone martial arts?

[Flying Crane]

I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, at any time.

I’ve thought about this as I’ve considered getting a training group going in the park. I’m not sure where the boundaries should lie, but Ive decided that if I get a group going once Covid is in the clear, I will make it clear that I have the right to discontinue teaching anyone, if I feel the arrangement is not good, for any reason. This is essentially the mirror image of the student’s right to quit at any time. They have the right to not be my student. I have the right to not be their teacher.

 

[Buka]

I booted a handful of students, and one larger family from my old dojo. Fortunate circumstances allowed me to do so - big place, huge enrollment going in, experienced and respected black belt assistants when we opened. (Old dojo building purchased, given our walking papers, took a year and a half to find what was the perfect place. Fist day of class there were over sixty people in the dojo)

I'm not sure what I would have done if it were a struggling dojo, we weren't in that position.

We also had the support of the resident community, the business community, the Law Enforcement community (LE, firefighters and EMTS trained for free) the Martial community, and the political community.

It was an exciting and fun place to train, yet had the strictest rules anyone had seen.

As I said, a handful were booted. But children were routinely suspended. Dojo rules required that students in high school and below had to bring report cards to the dojo after their parents saw them first. If a student went down in more than one subject in school since last term, they were suspended until the next report card. BUT they were allowed to still come and do homework there in the dojo if they wanted. The older students would help them.

I had access to city and state programs that helped people afford training costs. But nobody was ever turned away because they couldn't afford it. Especially single parent households. Again, fortunate circumstances allowed this. I just took advantage of the circumstances. It was a perfect storm.

I never got any pleasure from booting someone, but sometimes the situation warranted it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

As I said, a handful were booted. But children were routinely suspended. Dojo rules required that students in high school and below had to bring report cards to the dojo after their parents saw them first. If a student went down in more than one subject in school since last term, they were suspended until the next report card. BUT they were allowed to still come and do homework there in the dojo if they wanted. The older students would help them.

We've long done something similar. We allowed them to continue training, but would not allow them to promote.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I remember that policy as a kid too. We wouldn't necessarily be unable to promote, but we had to bring in our report cards before a (MA) test, and if there was anything off about it, we'd get asked. I had a semester where my earth science grade dropped from 100 to like 75..instead of just preventing the promotion, I was asked why. It was a result of me being forced into a higher 'tier' class, and they had a big test a couple days afterwards that I was expected to take...despite not learning the same information as them in my other class, so I failed it. Was still allowed to test, no suspension, but they wanted to see my next report card to, just to make sure my grade actually went back up. If not, I'm not sure what the plan was.

 

[Ivan]

Or do you not have a point where you'd stop? In a different thread, @Kung Fu Wang brought up an instance where he taught a girl who was being abused MA, then she stopped coming, he found out that the husband was now being attacked by her, and ended up teaching him MA.

So I had some hypothetical questions from that, that I didn't want to derail the thread with.
Assume for all the below that there's some sort of verifiable evidence for you about the person's intentions (either them telling you directly, multiple other people you trust have informed you, you've witnessed it, etc.), excluding option 4.

1. If he was still teaching the girl, and found out that she was now attacking (past defending herself) the husband, would you continue to teach her? What if you learned that she was the abuser from the beginning?

2. In the actual situation mentioned, would you teach the husband, knowing that the two were likely going to continue getting physical/violent with each other in the future, and now one of the two is trained because of you?

3. What about other situations, would you teach someone that you knew gets into bar fights a lot, or is ultimately planning to get into fist fights with the training? If so, is there a line that you'd draw?

4. What if you have no evidence, but for whatever reason, the individual seems like a slimeball to you, and you suspect their reasons for learning martial arts are malicious? Does this change if the person in question is 13 vs. if they're in their 40s and giving you that vibe?

5. What about someone who can't control themselves? I've seen teens/young adults with developmental disabilities or similar, where they get a lot of strength, and end up hurting their caretakers. There's often nothing malicious here, but impulse control issues combined with lack of comprehension about what they're doing and the impact it has. Would you teach someone like this, knowing that you could potentially be enabling them to hurt their caretakers further?

Depends on your relationship with the student. We've all seen the movies in which students are treated like second sons. I've always craved to have that type of relationship with a teacher of mine since I started my journey in the studies of martial arts.

But the reality is, that teachers need to get by - they need the money, and I honestly don't think there are many martial arts instructors who can say they thrive from their job whilst being picky about the people they train. Regardless of the student's personal life, if he pays, he's good to go.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Depends on your relationship with the student. We've all seen the movies in which students are treated like second sons. I've always craved to have that type of relationship with a teacher of mine since I started my journey in the studies of martial arts.

But the reality is, that teachers need to get by - they need the money, and I honestly don't think there are many martial arts instructors who can say they thrive from their job whilst being picky about the people they train. Regardless of the student's personal life, if he pays, he's good to go.

Over the years, I have been paid exactly $0.00 by students.
My own teacher? Same. Well, technically he got paid by the Y, but he gave it back as a charitable contribution.

 

[dvcochran]

Or do you not have a point where you'd stop? In a different thread, @Kung Fu Wang brought up an instance where he taught a girl who was being abused MA, then she stopped coming, he found out that the husband was now being attacked by her, and ended up teaching him MA.

So I had some hypothetical questions from that, that I didn't want to derail the thread with.
Assume for all the below that there's some sort of verifiable evidence for you about the person's intentions (either them telling you directly, multiple other people you trust have informed you, you've witnessed it, etc.), excluding option 4.

1. If he was still teaching the girl, and found out that she was now attacking (past defending herself) the husband, would you continue to teach her? What if you learned that she was the abuser from the beginning?

2. In the actual situation mentioned, would you teach the husband, knowing that the two were likely going to continue getting physical/violent with each other in the future, and now one of the two is trained because of you?

3. What about other situations, would you teach someone that you knew gets into bar fights a lot, or is ultimately planning to get into fist fights with the training? If so, is there a line that you'd draw?

4. What if you have no evidence, but for whatever reason, the individual seems like a slimeball to you, and you suspect their reasons for learning martial arts are malicious? Does this change if the person in question is 13 vs. if they're in their 40s and giving you that vibe?

5. What about someone who can't control themselves? I've seen teens/young adults with developmental disabilities or similar, where they get a lot of strength, and end up hurting their caretakers. There's often nothing malicious here, but impulse control issues combined with lack of comprehension about what they're doing and the impact it has. Would you teach someone like this, knowing that you could potentially be enabling them to hurt their caretakers further?

This must be covered and mapped in your business plan. If you were making widgets would you tolerate the same actions from an employee? More importantly would they be an employee based on their past or current actions?
Now, especially being a service industry that truly can be life changing it is imperative for the owner/instructor to decide what their model includes, and what the implications are.
I have mentioned before the programs we had with DHS and the county and city departments.
This can get tough and be a huge demand on leadership (aka you) screening and dealing with troubled people. It can work for your business but if not tightly managed can work against you. The most common example is when ‘regular’ folks in class do not want to train with someone who has a bad past. So the managing is necessary on both sides of the equation.
My advice to you based on the OP is I would not train either until there was documented and positive counseling. There are liability implications (think LLC).
That said, it can be hugely rewarding to help someone turn their life around.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Depends on your relationship with the student. We've all seen the movies in which students are treated like second sons. I've always craved to have that type of relationship with a teacher of mine since I started my journey in the studies of martial arts.

But the reality is, that teachers need to get by - they need the money, and I honestly don't think there are many martial arts instructors who can say they thrive from their job whilst being picky about the people they train. Regardless of the student's personal life, if he pays, he's good to go.

I've had a teacher that charged me nothing, back in college. In fact, I helped him with some of the kids classes, and he started paying me against my wishes, since I was already receiving free classes at that time. He also was a huge influence on me, taught me a lot outside martial arts, helped my confidence and my anger. While I was still there (no longer since I live back home), if I was ever arrested or in trouble, for anything, he'd be the guy that I called.

 

[Ivan]

I've had a teacher that charged me nothing, back in college. In fact, I helped him with some of the kids classes, and he started paying me against my wishes, since I was already receiving free classes at that time. He also was a huge influence on me, taught me a lot outside martial arts, helped my confidence and my anger. While I was still there (no longer since I live back home), if I was ever arrested or in trouble, for anything, he'd be the guy that I called.

Man I wish I had a teacher like that

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've had a teacher that charged me nothing,...

If a MA teacher has a 6 months old baby to feed, For him to teach for free is a bad idea. To encourage a person to work for free is to discourage others to work for payment.

A: My teacher teaches me for free.
B: You have a good teacher.
C: My teacher won't teach me for free.
B: You have a bad teacher.

If 1 MA teacher teaches for free, but 1000 MA teachers teach for money, that 1 good MA teacher will make all other 1000 MA teachers to look bad.

I can afford to teach for free. But I have to protect the principle - there is no free lunch on this planet.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If a MA teacher has a 6 months old baby to feed, For him to teach for free is a bad idea. To encourage a person to work for free is to discourage others to work for payment.

A: My teacher teaches me for free.
B: You have a good teacher.
C: My teacher won't teach me for free.
B: You have a bad teacher.

If 1 MA teacher teaches for free, but 1000 MA teachers teach for money, that 1 good MA teacher will make all other 1000 MA teachers to look bad.

Keep in mind that I didn't request him to teach me for free, and actually actively tried to get him to charge me.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If a MA teacher has a 6 months old baby to feed, For him to teach for free is a bad idea. To encourage a person to work for free is to discourage others to work for proper payment.

Nonsense. Not all of us expect to make a living from teaching.

A: My teacher teaches me for free.
B: You have a good teacher.
C: My teacher won't teach me for free.
B: You have a bad teacher.

That doesn't follow. At all. The price charged (or not) has little or nothing to do with the skill of the teacher or their ability to pass that skill on to students.
I think I'm a good teacher. Not because I teach for free, but because my students understand the material, do well in competitions, and do well in life. One of my students is a 4th year veterinary medicine student. One is a Sophomore at Princeton on a full ride academic scholarship. Her sister will be will be starting at Dartmouth in the fall, also on a full ride academic scholarship.
Is this a result of their training? Certainly not entirely, no. But they all feel it helped; they've all listed their Dan ranks as an accomplishment on scholarship applications and on their entry applications, and they've all asked me to right letters of recommendation for them.
What impact did my charging (or not) for that training have? None.

If 1 MA teacher teaches for free, but 1000 MA teachers teach for money, that 1 good MA teacher will make all other 1000 MA teachers to look bad.

Ludicrous.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I would rpobbly only call it if A it bring up legal issues (if the law exists and applies to me) or B they start interfering with my intrests, eg if they end up wreking some economic asset i own. and maybe if i adopt some relgion or something like that if they violate said tenents.(pending how much i belive in them and expect people i affilate to follow them) Oh and if they routienly scare off or bully other members would probbly fall under B. i would expect anyone to follow posted rules as posted. and stated rules upon statement.

Damage is all ready done if they have learnt enough of it so you might as well at least try to contain or make some profit off of it. viewpoints could change but currently thatsmy general framework.

Addendum: also if they know how to fight they are at least predictable so people who know how to fight can defend against them easier, as oppsoed to them randomly flipping out and doing something that you think would be stupid and it ends up KO'ing you in suprise.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would rpobbly only call it if A it bring up legal issues (if the law exists and applies to me) or B they start interfering with my intrests, eg if they end up wreking some economic asset i own. and maybe if i adopt some relgion or something like that if they violate said tenents.(pending how much i belive in them and expect people i affilate to follow them) Oh and if they routienly scare off or bully other members would probbly fall under B. i would expect anyone to follow posted rules as posted. and stated rules upon statement.

Damage is all ready done if they have learnt enough of it so you might as well at least try to contain or make some profit off of it. viewpoints could change but currently thatsmy general framework.

Since you've never had any actual training, I don't suppose we have to worry about you training someone who would misuse it...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or do you not have a point where you'd stop? In a different thread, @Kung Fu Wang brought up an instance where he taught a girl who was being abused MA, then she stopped coming, he found out that the husband was now being attacked by her, and ended up teaching him MA.

So I had some hypothetical questions from that, that I didn't want to derail the thread with.
Assume for all the below that there's some sort of verifiable evidence for you about the person's intentions (either them telling you directly, multiple other people you trust have informed you, you've witnessed it, etc.), excluding option 4.

1. If he was still teaching the girl, and found out that she was now attacking (past defending herself) the husband, would you continue to teach her? What if you learned that she was the abuser from the beginning?

2. In the actual situation mentioned, would you teach the husband, knowing that the two were likely going to continue getting physical/violent with each other in the future, and now one of the two is trained because of you?

3. What about other situations, would you teach someone that you knew gets into bar fights a lot, or is ultimately planning to get into fist fights with the training? If so, is there a line that you'd draw?

4. What if you have no evidence, but for whatever reason, the individual seems like a slimeball to you, and you suspect their reasons for learning martial arts are malicious? Does this change if the person in question is 13 vs. if they're in their 40s and giving you that vibe?

5. What about someone who can't control themselves? I've seen teens/young adults with developmental disabilities or similar, where they get a lot of strength, and end up hurting their caretakers. There's often nothing malicious here, but impulse control issues combined with lack of comprehension about what they're doing and the impact it has. Would you teach someone like this, knowing that you could potentially be enabling them to hurt their caretakers further?

1. No, I wouldn’t want to enable that behavior. Finding out I’d been duped wouldn’t change that, except that I’d feel bad for having facilitated.
   
2. No. He was an abuser, and I know it. Not giving him more ability to abuse in the future.
   
3. No. My intention is to help folks avoid violence, not to facilitate them creating more. (Obviously I’m not talking about competitive bouts here.)
4. If they are a jerk, I’m not interested. As for age, people are still growing (their brains, more or less literally) at 13, so I’d set boundaries and they could train so long as they respect those rules. At 40, probably no.
   
5. With this person, I think the aiki arts make a good fit for development. Teach them the flow and control, and don’t get into the more dangerous (to joints, etc.) techniques.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Since you've never had any actual training, I don't suppose we have to worry about you training someone who would misuse it...

I have and that seems largley off topic anyway. And there are people with "training" that cant fight there way out of a paperbag. (i dont think there is a shrug emoji so just put that here)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Addendum: also if they know how to fight they are at least predictable so people who know how to fight can defend against them easier, as oppsoed to them randomly flipping out and doing something that you think would be stupid and it ends up KO'ing you in suprise.

This might be the worst logic I've seen here. "Let's teach more people to fight well because it will make them fight worse."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Over the years, I have been paid exactly $0.00 by students.
My own teacher? Same. Well, technically he got paid by the Y, but he gave it back as a charitable contribution.

Wow. I’ve made so much more than you. I’ll bet I’ve made nearly $1,000 over the years.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

With this person, I think the aiki arts make a good fit for development. Teach them the flow and control, and don’t get into the more dangerous (to joints, etc.) techniques.

This is a really good point I hadn't thought about. Some arts are definitely better suited to teach people with anger issues/impulse control issues, not because they're better/worse but because it's built into them. I probably wouldn't want to teach someone with those issues boxing, for instance, but some internal-esque arts may help them out.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is a really good point I hadn't thought about. Some arts are definitely better suited to teach people with anger issues/impulse control issues, not because they're better/worse but because it's built into them. I probably wouldn't want to teach someone with those issues boxing, for instance, but some internal-esque arts may help them out.

That was my thinking. I’d have to adjust focus and what I teach in the early parts of the curriculum, but there are definitely parts that I could work with.