At what point should you refuse or stop teaching someone martial arts?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yep which is why I'm not a politician lol. Come to think of it, I'm not popular either. But I'm happy. lol

In one meeting, one of my team members said, "I agree with you today. But I reserve my right to disagree with you later on if I can find a good reason."

I can not learn that kind of talking no matter how hard that I may try.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Many won't be interested, because ego and insecurity. I know my primary instructor would never welcome such an arrangement. There are three dojos in my area in the same style (all from the same "parent" instructor). Two were welcoming (one had no space, so sent me to the other, where I now teach, and the third never responded. I later learned that the third scoffed at the very idea of another instructor (of any style, including his own) in his school.

That's a shame. His loss

 

[JowGaWolf]

In one meeting, one of my team members said, "I agree with you today. But I reserve my right to disagree with you later on if I can find a good reason."

I can not learn that kind of talking no matter how hard that I may try.

lol that's the worse.. To agree but to actively search for something to disagree about lol. Man says he has 2 eyes. He agrees, but the next day he pokes out his right eye, just so he can argue that he doesn't have 2 eyes. The argument was more important than having 2 working eyes. Nothing is ever solved because the answer is to always be the opposite of the other no matter what.

 

[Buka]

I’m not an eggplant guy, but that last one was wonderful, tuna salad sandwich must have been made with fresh tuna? What a difference! Best I’ve ever had. And the chicken soup, excellent. We need to get there when it’s safe to travel again. Would love to visit with you a bit.

Yes, the sanggie was made with Ahi caught the pervious evening by my landlord who lives next door. A farmer by trade, he lives to fish.

Cube up the Ahi (tuna), put it in boiling water for about three minutes, blanch it immediately in ice water, let it cool. Flake it, add mayo. The celery was grown by my landlord as well.

Yeah, that would be much fun. How about Chicken Piccata or home made Bolognese sauce cooked in the slow cooker for eight hours, over the pasta of your choice, garlic bread on the side. Bottle of wine and well slung bullship like it's going out of style?

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes, the sanggie was made with Ahi caught the pervious evening by my landlord who lives next door. A farmer by trade, he lives to fish.

Cube up the Ahi (tuna), put it in boiling water for about three minutes, blanch it immediately in ice water, let it cool. Flake it, add mayo. The celery was grown by my landlord as well.

Yeah, that would be much fun. How about Chicken Piccata or home made Bolognese sauce cooked in the slow cooker for eight hours, over the pasta of your choice, garlic bread on the side. Bottle of wine and well slung bullship like it's going out of style?

Sounds like paradise!

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Meng Zi (孟子) said, "Sometime one argues because he has no option". The funny thing is when he said that, he was arguing right at that moment.

When you comment my post as the "worst logic in this thread". I have to argue that particular logic was created 2,500 years ago.


The Goodness-Harm Quadrant.

By refusing the reward, you lead others to think accepting the reward money is being greedy.

This logic was formed over 2,500 years ago (551 BC - 479 BC). I just quote the famous ancient Chinese stories.

1. Zi Gong released slave (子贡赎人), and
2. Zi Lu accepted cow (子路受牛).

“In performing good deeds, there is also what seems to be goodness, but is actually not, and what does not appear to be goodness, but actually is.

1. Unintentional Harm - Zi Gong released slave:

For example, in the Spring-Autumn Period, there was a country named Lu. Because there were other countries which took their citizens as slaves or servants, the country of Lu made a law which rewarded those who paid the ransom to regain the freedom of their fellow citizens. At that time, Confucius had a very rich student named Zi Gong. Although Zi Gong paid for the ransom to free his people, he did not accept the reward for doing such a deed. He did it out of good intentions, seeking only to help others and not for the reward money.

But when Confucius heard this, he was very unhappy and scolded him, saying,

‘You acted wrongly in this matter. When saints and sages undertake anything, they strive to improve the social demeanor, teaching the common folk to be good and decent people. One should not do something just because one feels like it. In the country of Lu, the poor outnumber the wealthy. By refusing the reward, you lead others to think accepting the reward money is being greedy. Thus, all the poor people and others who do not wish to appear greedy will hesitate to pay for ransom in the future. Only very rich people will have a chance to practice this deed. If this happens, no one will pay the ransom to free our people again.’

2. Intentional Goodness - Zi Lu accepted cow:

Another student of Confucius, Zi Lu, once saw a man drowning in a river and went forth to rescue him. Later, the man thanked him by giving him a cow as a token of gratitude. Zi Lu accepted the gift. Confucius was happy when he heard this and said,

‘In the future, people will be willing and eager to help those who are drowning in deep waters or lakes.’

If we look from the view of the common people, Zi Gong, who did not accept the reward money, was good. And Zi Lu, who accepted the cow, was not as good. Who would have known that Confucius praised Zi Lu instead and scolded Zi Gong?

From this, we can see that those who practice kind deeds must not only look at the present outcome, but should consider the act’s effect in the long run. One should not only consider one’s own gain and loss, but should look to see the impact made on the public. What we do right now may be good, but with passing years, it may inflict harm upon others. Therefore, what seems like goodness may in fact be the opposite. And what appears to be the opposite of goodness may someday turn out to be goodness done after all.

Yes, I saw that. Just because the logic is 2.5k years old, doesn't mean it's good.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

In one meeting, one of my team members said, "I agree with you today. But I reserve my right to disagree with you later on if I can find a good reason."

I can not learn that kind of talking no matter how hard that I may try.

You have never disagreed with someone, to later end up agreeing with them, or vice versa?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is an example.

A: Sport is my path and combat is my goal.
B: Sport is my path and sport is also my goal.
C: To some people, sport is their path and combat is their goal. To others people, sport is their path and also their goal.

Both A and B are extreme and may offend others. C is in the middle. C's opinion will never offend anybody.

If all our forum members have opinion like C has, there won't be anything worthwhile for discussion.

There’s a LOOOOOT of room for discussion and debate without either of those points having to be absolute.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most discussion come from extreme point of view.

A: What's the relationship between sport and combat?
B: To some people, sport is their path and combat is their goal. To others people, sport is their path and also their goal.
C: Agree!
D: Agree!
... No more posts after that.

A: What's the relationship between sport and combat?
B: Sport is the path and combat is the goal.
C: Disagree! To some people, sport is their path and also their goal.
B: ...
C: ...
... More discussion after this ...

Disagreement isn’t always extremes.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Should a MA teacher get involve with his student's personal life?

There can be 2 different kind of teacher-student relationship.

1. You treat your student as your own son. Your student treats you as his own father. You take responsibility for everything your student does. Your student will come to you for all his problem that he will have (borrow money, bail out of jail, ask for advise, ...).
2. A student pays you. You teach whatever he wants to learn. After that, you don't know him, and he doesn't know you.

Which one do you prefer?

You have presented two extremes. Your choice #1 sounds like adoption! If we can agree to roll this position back a little, discussion will become more relevant.

Some of the Okinawan masters (especially pre WWII) followed both paths. They taught "school" karate to the masses as you refer to in #2. But taught what they wanted to teach (while keeping their uninformed students happy and satisfied) for the money, or at least as considering teaching as simply their job. Similar to what you laid out, but not quite so extreme. No student will tell me what to teach, but no doubt there are some sensei completely mercenary.

And then they taught "home" karate (as back then, the masters often taught out of their home) to select students. To these lucky individuals they taught the deeper concepts of karate and took them under their personal wing, often for little or no pay. Here, loyalty, mutual respect and personal relationships were forged.

This dual path still exists today, though perhaps in a diluted modified form, among some sensei.

To address the root question of this thread, I refuse to teach anyone I don't want to. What's in my mind and heart is mine to give or not give as I chose, like a gift. This statement may sound egotistical, but it's really not. It's just that after so many decades, my karate is personal to me. I consider the teaching I received from my first sensei, and am receiving from my current one as such a gift, freely given. As such, I prize it highly.

 

[PhilE]

You actually don't know who's abusing who. What you do know, is that they are using what you teach to inflict pain on the other. I'd stop teaching both, and consider informing the police. Not only on integrity, but to legally cover your ***.

 

[dvcochran]

You have never disagreed with someone, to later end up agreeing with them, or vice versa?

I agree.... or I disagree. I am really not sure.

 

[Buka]

To address the root question of this thread, I refuse to teach anyone I don't want to.

Wrap that up and put a bow on it. I SO second that.

 

[Directional Harmony]

I believe a sensei has an obligation to share their art only with people who have honorable intentions. No one should intentionally share knowledge with someone who intends to use it for evil.

 

[mrt2]

There are specific situations where I would make an exception. And the only reason for this is because of a parolee in one of my anger management classes, who completely turned me on my head in terms of violent crime/felonies. It was a class that was mandated (or a similar class) in order to be on parole if you were sentenced for a violent felony.

This particular guy was one of the most relaxed guys that I knew, and definitively the least threatening violent felon that I've met, and had just gotten out of jail after 15 years. Over the course of some individual sessions I learned his story, checked with his parole officer, the documents that we receive, etc. to make sure he wasn't bullshitting me (something I did with most of them). 15 years earlier, he had been drinking at a bar, per him he had 2 drinks, drove home, and another lady who was using other substances blew a red light, hit him, and both the lady and her baby that was in the car died. He called 911, stuck around to tell them what happened/try to help the two until they got there, and informed the police that he had two drinks-from what I recall they didn't do a BAC on him but that parts a bit fuzzy memory-wise. Per the individual, he had a very bad lawyer, and the judge wanted to set an example, plus a kid died so he got 15 years, and I don't know exactly how it went down, but got listed as a violent crime. So now anywhere that does a background check on him, he will come up as a violent criminal. But I'd have no issue whatsoever teaching him martial arts in a group, or individually.

Your student's recitation of the facts gives me a little bit of pause, because as someone who represents criminals, and drunk drivers, I have heard this kind of thing before. It is a rare convicted felon who tells me he accepts full responsibility for what he did, is sorry for the harm he did to the victim, and thankful for the quality of legal representation, and the fairness of the judge or court. Sadly, a lot of people are looking for someone to blame. This is almost textbook. He only had 2 drinks (btw, almost every person pulled over by the cops had 2 drinks. Not 1, not 3, not 4. Always 2.) And even if he had a bit too much to drink, the other person was at fault for blowing a red light. Then to make things worse, he had a bad lawyer who f-cked him over, and a judge looking to make an example of him. Sounds like the only thing this guy did wrong was have those 2 drinks, and stick around after the accident, if indeed that is what he actually did.

That said, if teaching this guy martial arts helps, I am all for it.

 

[dvcochran]

Your student's recitation of the facts gives me a little bit of pause, because as someone who represents criminals, and drunk drivers, I have heard this kind of thing before. It is a rare convicted felon who tells me he accepts full responsibility for what he did, is sorry for the harm he did to the victim, and thankful for the quality of legal representation, and the fairness of the judge or court. Sadly, a lot of people are looking for someone to blame. This is almost textbook. He only had 2 drinks (btw, almost every person pulled over by the cops had 2 drinks. Not 1, not 3, not 4. Always 2.) And even if he had a bit too much to drink, the other person was at fault for blowing a red light. Then to make things worse, he had a bad lawyer who f-cked him over, and a judge looking to make an example of him. Sounds like the only thing this guy did wrong was have those 2 drinks, and stick around after the accident, if indeed that is what he actually did.

That said, if teaching this guy martial arts helps, I am all for it.

Sir, good to see you back on the forum.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Your student's recitation of the facts gives me a little bit of pause, because as someone who represents criminals, and drunk drivers, I have heard this kind of thing before. It is a rare convicted felon who tells me he accepts full responsibility for what he did, is sorry for the harm he did to the victim, and thankful for the quality of legal representation, and the fairness of the judge or court. Sadly, a lot of people are looking for someone to blame. This is almost textbook. He only had 2 drinks (btw, almost every person pulled over by the cops had 2 drinks. Not 1, not 3, not 4. Always 2.) And even if he had a bit too much to drink, the other person was at fault for blowing a red light. Then to make things worse, he had a bad lawyer who f-cked him over, and a judge looking to make an example of him. Sounds like the only thing this guy did wrong was have those 2 drinks, and stick around after the accident, if indeed that is what he actually did.

That said, if teaching this guy martial arts helps, I am all for it.

I understand the doubt. I've dealt with many similar drunk drivers and have heard very similar stories. Less so from the ones that actually finished their sentence/were on parole, and more from the ones still on probation, but either way heard many similar stories. I also had the ability to talk with their parole officers, lawyers, probation officers, etc. see any court records that exist, and check the story. Because of the way he said it, and it didn't feel like he was trying to negate any responsibility on his end just from our conversations (I won't go into more of that here since that part I haven't been given permission to share), I actually went ahead and investigated it a bit. The ability of the lawyer and attitude of the judge I've no idea of, obviously. But everything else he told me about the situation checked out.

It also doesn't matter too much if you believe it or not. And I fully get why you might not. My point was just to share an example of a guy that I'd have no moral issues whatsoever teaching MA too.

 

[Buka]

It's a strange two way street at times.....

A guy walked into the dojo a real long time ago. I was the only one there, training after class. Bug eyed looking guy, kind of crazy looking. He says to me “I just got out of jail in Maine for breaking into a drug store to steal drugs. I want to turn my life around. Can I join? I'll understand if you say no.”

We talked for a minute and I told him to come the next day ready to train. He did. And turned his life around.

Became a good point fighter, then a really good PKA fighter and boxer. Married, two kids, just retired as a welder. One of my very best friends in the world. And crazy as a ship house rat to this day.

I could have said no, he gave me that out. I’m so glad I didn’t. Not for his sake, but for mine.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At what point should you refuse or stop teaching someone martial arts?

Old CMA saying said, "If you teach someone, you don't fight him. If you fight someone, you don't teach him." So the moment that your student starts to challenge you, you stop teaching him.

 

[Flying Crane]

At what point should you refuse or stop teaching someone martial arts?

Old CMA saying said, "If you teach someone, you don't fight him. If you fight someone, you don't teach him." So the moment that your student starts to challenge you, you stop teaching him.

Ok but realistically, how often does a teacher find himself actually engaged in combat with his student? The kind where they are actually trying to put the other in the hospital or the morgue? Exceedingly rare, if ever, I’ll wager.

By challenge, do you mean an intellectual challenge of what is being taught or how it is being taught? Or business decisions about running the school? Sometimes a separation is appropriate, but I would like to think that reasonable adults can make room for disagreement in their relationships, without it becoming an irreparable rift.

I think that sometimes teachers think they ought to be able to hold long term control over their students and what they do. This is a mistake. This approach can ultimately lead to an irreparable rift. Teachers need to be able to let go of that control. You teach your students, and eventually you need to trust that they have learned it well and they can be trusted to do what they will with it. And if not, well you don’t get to control everything. People will do what they do, with you or without you if you drive them away. A teacher needs to give students room to breathe and develop their own place within the martial arts community.