Article: The TKD Billion Dollar Smokescreen

[zDom]

First off, you are dead wrong about Exile.

Secondly, re:

Did you know TKD doesn't allow you to punch to the head. so someone with 10 years TKD will be instantly distroyed. Same factor with any sport.

You are sadly mistaken if you think all taekwondo is sport taekwondo.

Training TKD for 10+ years didn't inhibit MY ability to punch to the head; it enhanced my ability to do so. And in a self defense situation, I was not "instantly destroyed." My attacker was rendered unconcious with a single punch to the head.

I guess you have never heard of, for example, Pu Gil Gwon, what his job was, and how taekwondo enabled him to be very effective in his job, either, eh?

I agree that there have been misrepresentations about the origins of TKD. But maybe you should do some in-depth research into taekwondo before you support a Website that gives such a narrow, uniformed view of a this art.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

From Wiki: ""Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, internet blogging and the like, then it is considered libel."

MartialTalk has a posted copyright policy which we enforce (as a number of people will attest to.)

Posting a link to a website is not illegal. If it were, Google would be in big trouble. Websites regularly link to other websites. No permission is needed, and no laws are broken. Court cases have established the legality of "deep linking" into any page of a website. Take away the ability to link and you take away the basic glue that makes the Web work. You'd have no Yahoo, no Google , no blogs, etc.

Posting a link, referencing the content contained there, and commenting is not illegal. It may however be defamatory, which can place the poster in jeopardy, if the subject can prove damages as a result. If contacted we will comply with court orders. But we don't just hand over records or censor content because someone demanded it. We have told several lawyers and at least 2 law enforcement agencies no due to lack of properly executed paperwork over the years. We've also had several idiots claim to be lawyers contact us. That tends to be bad for them.

 

[shesulsa]

One would have to wonder that if someone doesn't want their page linked to ... why they would have the page up in the first place?

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I don't feel Mr. Whitney is being fully forthcoming about his involvement with this website. He claims he "was involved" and "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" as well as "if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved". This conveys that he's but a small part of this site but it's domain is registered in his name.

Registrar Name....: BlueHost.Com
Registrar Whois...: whois.bluehost.com
Registrar Homepage: http://www.bluehost.com/

Domain Name: TAEKWONDOTIMES.NET

Created on..............: 2007-06-11 15:47:50 GMT
Expires on..............: 2008-06-11 09:47:51 GMT
Last modified on........: 2007-07-13 08:57:38 GMT

Registrant Info: (FAST-12854990)

Christian Whitney
selling on godaddy dot com auction
cape may, New Jersey 08212
United States
Phone:
Fax..:
Email: **************@yahoo.com
Last modified: 2007-06-15 04:45:34 GMT

My question for Mr. Whitney is: Why are you not being straight forward about this? Why won't you stand behind your actions? Why won't you debate the content of the site?

Master Whitney, after looking a little more thoroughly at your prices I do see that all you offer is private and semi-private instruction and the rates are not outlandish for this part of the country. I appologize as I was under the impression that you charged a minimum of $200 per month for group classes but now I see those classes are limited to 4 students.

I will also say that your behavior towards Exile on this thread has been unbecoming of a Martial Arts Student much less a Master.

_Don Flatt

 

[terryl965]

Exile,

you have been waiting for someone from that website to come out for awhile.

How am I refusing to answer? You are a funny man. I answered your question many times already.

Yes, I said to you numerous times TKD guy - I was involved by writing the story - did you not get it the first time? or second or thrid?

Look over my posts sir and tell me the patience I have had with your disrespect.

Can you not read sir? or do you selectively choose what you want to see.

You think you know facts on TKD history. Why don't you call Jhoon Rhee? hmnn.. do you think he knows more or less then you?

Are you a TKD pioneer? no.. it's something you practice or teach and got your feathers ruffled by the website.

live with it Exile.. if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved.

tell me this. if you are 60 years old, why wouldn't you email or call me?

does it make you feel big and mighty having people all over the world look at you on this discussion board. I don't like TKD because it's a lying and deceptive sport.

am I not allowed to feel this way?

If you are a so called professor at whatever university sir, then stop your games and TKD behavour.

Your really not interested in talking about anything and act like a 15 year old child hiding behind the computer.

look at your arrogant and belligerent attitude thoughout all our online conversations.

please respect my wishes and leave me alone - you wish to debate with me online. I don't play games exile. So stop your nonsense with this!

you have a question email. If not live with it. At 60 years old you obviously have no manners. that I find hard to believe!

Your a rude and persistant guy. You truely need the Martial arts.

First lessons are patience and courtesy.

Mr. Whitney Sir,

I will try to ask you a few question if you do not mind, if you have never ever trained in TKD how cah you make the assumption that TKD is only about the sport? Secondly I have meet and had decussion with Exile, he has a lot of info. about TKD combat application and yes I have trained over there in the sixties and seventies so I know first hand what I'm talking about. If you take the time to investigate what TKD was before the sport then you would know, as far as asking Joon Rhee, I have personnally meet him and he can tell you about the combat application as well.

You come on here talking about things you have never experience in my Art and yes I said my Art not sport, I have been training in TKD one way or another for over thirty years and your comments and so call experience lack in the field of my Art. So may I suggest you go back and learn what you think you know and actually find the truth you are seeking.

May I also ask why is this so important to you if the Art or sport of TKD is not in your training diary, are you looking for a grat teacher, are you trying to become better rounded as a person in whole? or the last which you have said to exile are you a troll looking just to cause problems?

My guess it is the latter rather the first.

I wish you peace and harmony in your life.
Train hard and often.
Master Stoker

 

[Carol]

One would have to wonder that if someone doesn't want their page linked to ... why they would have the page up in the first place?

Yup. Sukerkin posed the question about copyrights and public domain...just because something is copyrighted material doesn't mean that it's not public knowledge. The web is a form of "broadcasting", and unlike major media presentations, its a form that the individual user has complete control over the content.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

I don't feel Mr. Whitney is being fully forthcoming about his involvement with this website. He claims he "was involved" and "yes.. I wrote the Candy Store owner story" as well as "if I didn't agree 100% with the info on the website, I wouldn't have been involved". This conveys that he's but a small part of this site but it's domain is registered in his name.

My question for Mr. Whitney is: Why are you not being straight forward about this? Why won't you stand behind your actions? Why won't you debate the content of the site?

Master Whitney, after looking a little more thoroughly at your prices I do see that all you offer is private and semi-private instruction and the rates are not outlandish for this part of the country. I appologize as I was under the impression that you charged a minimum of $200 per month for group classes but now I see those classes are limited to 4 students.

I will also say that your behavior towards Exile on this thread has been unbecoming of a Martial Arts Student much less a Master.

_Don Flatt

Mr. Flatt,

you can preach what you like to anyone. I am not here in this world to convince anyone of anything. I will however continue to speak and debate the lies that this sickening sport has caused the world.

good luck to you sir

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Yup. Sukerkin posed the question about copyrights and public domain...just because something is copyrighted material doesn't mean that it's not public knowledge. The web is a form of "broadcasting", and unlike major media presentations, its a form that the individual user has complete control over the content.

Konee cheee wa Ms.

I have edited this.

anyone want to talk email me.

 

[Sukerkin]

Are you actually serious?

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

Mr. Whitney Sir,

I will try to ask you a few question if you do not mind, if you have never ever trained in TKD how cah you make the assumption that TKD is only about the sport? Secondly I have meet and had decussion with Exile, he has a lot of info. about TKD combat application and yes I have trained over there in the sixties and seventies so I know first hand what I'm talking about. If you take the time to investigate what TKD was before the sport then you would know, as far as asking Joon Rhee, I have personnally meet him and he can tell you about the combat application as well.

You come on here talking about things you have never experience in my Art and yes I said my Art not sport, I have been training in TKD one way or another for over thirty years and your comments and so call experience lack in the field of my Art. So may I suggest you go back and learn what you think you know and actually find the truth you are seeking.

May I also ask why is this so important to you if the Art or sport of TKD is not in your training diary, are you looking for a grat teacher, are you trying to become better rounded as a person in whole? or the last which you have said to exile are you a troll looking just to cause problems?

My guess it is the latter rather the first.

I wish you peace and harmony in your life.
Train hard and often.
Master Stoker

For the love of God,

With all due respect - you are a senior moderator on this board are you not?

The website www.TaeKwonDoTimes.Net is 100% fact.

if TaeKwondoist don't like it.. I'm sorry! I'm not the one who has lied to the world - ask Jhoon Rhee and any founders that.

people who are brainwashed can believe what they want. Don't harass me about it, I am not a TKD founder that lied and needs to answer for my actions.

I don't wish to argue with TKD people..

do what you like, call it whatever you like - Yoga, Kung Fu anything. I will only protect the public by telling them the truth.

am I a troll?

No that would be mr. Exile and possibly you as well.

Your fellow Taekwondoist are the ones that illegally brought me here. Typical of the lack of discipline the "SPORT" has.

I see it's legal in your eyes to slander a business because your a Taekwondoist right? maybe you should also do some research my friend on business law.
Good luck to you and your studies

if you ever wish to be a civil person and talk like an adult email me and we can have peaceful discussions.

 

[crushing]

like I said. I have yet for one TKD person to email me and talk. It's the EGO that needs to be seen on this board.

With email does your ego get out of the way? Do you suddenly become courteous, patient and discplined? Do you become more like that which you demand of others, but lack in yourself?

Given your insults and poor behavior in this thread, I don't blame anyone for not emailing you and giving up their own email address. If you do this in a public forum, what should they expect in return in their inbox or on a telephone?

 

[terryl965]

Konee cheee wa Ms.

post what you like. This is a perfect example of Tae kwon Do personality and why the world is actually worse off with this sickening sport.

Look at your own ego. For the love of God.

How about since this thread was closed last night by the Tae kwon Do Owner Mr. Hubbard. that we leave it alone and closed.

Anyone wish to continue to be childish and insult me and my business because you can't handle someone else in the world having a dif. perspective or telling the truth about TKD - email me anytime. I'd be thrilled as I always am.

I can't believe you have the temerity to say anything with your qoute (Peace through strength)
are you serious Ms?

First off the thread is not close it is open for people to make comments so we are and as for TKD people being childesh you never even answered any of my question. Ask me about TKD or our to embrasses to ask someone with experience and has trained over sea's.

No need to e-mail you when we have a forum to discuss all thing in the open my friend.

So lets talk.

 

[Kacey]

Konee cheee wa Ms.

post what you like. This is a perfect example of Tae kwon Do personality and why the world is actually worse off with this sickening sport.

You are welcome to your opinion, as we are welcome to ours. Apparently, however, you feel that only you are entitled to an opinion.

Look at your own ego. For the love of God.

An interesting statement, given the egotism necessary to state that you - and only you - could possibly be correct.

How about since this thread was closed last night by the Tae kwon Do Owner Mr. Hubbard. that we leave it alone and closed.

Hmm... who keeps responding to this thread? People are responding to your statements - perhaps if you could stop your insistence on the last word, the thread could have died a quiet death.

Anyone wish to continue to be childish and insult me and my business because you can't handle someone else in the world having a dif. perspective or telling the truth about TKD - email me anytime. I'd be thrilled as I always am.

Again... you are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome to mine. Your experience with TKD has been poor; mine has been quite good - because of the people I have had the privilege to encounter. There are good and bad people everywhere - so what? I have met bad people in TKD, and good people. I choose to emphasize the positive rather than the negative; you choose to emphasize the negative rather than the positive. Those who interact with you and are the target of such an opinion on a regular and personal basis have my condolences.

I can't believe you have the temerity to say anything with your qoute (Peace through strength)
are you serious Ms?

Yes, I believe she is.

Tae Kwon do lied to the world for 40 years - anyone want a debate?

meet me in person and lets debate the facts and video it.

but.. get Jhoon Rhee and bring him as well.

this baby game of blog talk with children and everyone bashing me is rediculas.

Hmm... again, people are welcome to their own interpretation of events, a concept that everyone but you seems to be willing to accept.

excuse me - but childish acts are what got me to this board discussion.

lying and slandering my business that is typical of any Tae Kwon Doist is why I am here.

You posted a website that was totally outside of and counter to my 20 years of experience in Taekwon-Do, and I (as the original poster) requested commentary. How is that lying or slandering?

If you are going to create a website with the type of information on it that you do, you should expect that people will question it... and in the same medium as that in which it was presented. I see no reason why anyone should go out of their way to accommodate you by contacting you personally; you are sufficiently vitriolic here, on a moderated board, that I see no reason why anyone would want to inflict you on themselves in any other venue.

If you want people to treat you as a rational, reasonable, intelligent adult, then perhaps you should rewrite your posts so that you sound like a rational, reasonable, intelligent adult... right now, you make the 7th grade students I teach look mature, patient, and logical.

 

[Carol]

Konee cheee wa Ms.

post what you like. This is a perfect example of Tae kwon Do personality and why the world is actually worse off with this sickening sport.

Look at your own ego. For the love of God.

How about since this thread was closed last night by the Tae kwon Do Owner Mr. Hubbard. that we leave it alone and closed.

Anyone wish to continue to be childish and insult me and my business because you can't handle someone else in the world having a dif. perspective or telling the truth about TKD - email me anytime. I'd be thrilled as I always am.

I can't believe you have the temerity to say anything with your qoute (Peace through strength)
are you serious Ms?

Kon'Nichi Wa sir.

There are a few 10th Degree Black Belts out there, like yourself, that have expressed their displeasure with my opinions from time to time...as is there/your right (providing it does not violate MartialTalk's rules).

If you would like to debate, you have the floor sir. :asian:

 

[terryl965]

For the love of God,

With all due respect - you are a senior moderator on this board are you not?

Respectfully I will not go into any detail. Email if you wish to talk.

I'm sorry to tell you that you are mistaken sir. Tae kwon Do was founded as a "sport" only. Then over the last 40 years, people add what they like in regards to self defense.

Military? yes.. reverse punches and kicks like any other Karate back in the 50's..

The website www.TaeKwonDoTimes.Net is 100% fact.

if TaeKwondoist don't like it.. sorry!

I agree with it 100%

people who are brainwashed can believe what they want. Don't harass me about it, I am not a TKD founder that lied and needs to answer for my actions.

Sir with all do respect and yes I'm a senior Mod. but that does not mean I cannot have my opions, I was there in Soul training while my father trained with the ROK military TKD is a form of self defense whether you like it or not. Have you been there? have you trained with some of the old ROK? Have you ever trained in TKD, so all your assumption are just that assumption.

Please have a nice day.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

From Wiki: ""Defamation" is the general term used internationally, and is used in this article where it is not necessary to distinguish between "slander" and "libel". Libel and slander both require publication. The fundamental distinction between libel and slander lies solely in the form in which the defamatory matter is published. If the offending material is published in some fleeting form, as by spoken words or sounds, sign language, gestures and the like, then this is slander. If it is published in more durable form, for example in written words, film, compact disc (CD), DVD, internet blogging and the like, then it is considered libel."

MartialTalk has a posted copyright policy which we enforce (as a number of people will attest to.)

Posting a link to a website is not illegal. If it were, Google would be in big trouble. Websites regularly link to other websites. No permission is needed, and no laws are broken. Court cases have established the legality of "deep linking" into any page of a website. Take away the ability to link and you take away the basic glue that makes the Web work. You'd have no Yahoo, no Google , no blogs, etc.

Posting a link, referencing the content contained there, and commenting is not illegal. It may however be defamatory, which can place the poster in jeopardy, if the subject can prove damages as a result. If contacted we will comply with court orders. But we don't just hand over records or censor content because someone demanded it. We have told several lawyers and at least 2 law enforcement agencies no due to lack of properly executed paperwork over the years. We've also had several idiots claim to be lawyers contact us. That tends to be bad for them.

Mr. Hubbard,

I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. after all it is your website here.

Can you be the adult of all the TKD people here and if you have anything to say to me contact me instead of being a child like the rest here.

you want discussion on this website about the smokescreen. what is driving you?

in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?

Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.

the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.

The other facts sir? look at

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net

 

[Kacey]

Mr. Hubbard,

I guess I really shouldn't be surprised. after all it is your website here.

Indeed, it is Bob's site - and Bob runs the best MA bulletin board on the 'net... any other board, and you'd be getting rude, nasty comments full of profanity, instead of polite inquiries that you refuse to answer.

Can you be the adult of all the TKD people here and if you have anything to say to me contact me instead of being a child like the rest here.

Did you bother to look at Bob's personal profile? He's studied quite a few arts - but TKD is not one of them. Apparently that minimal amount of research - to discover that TKD is not in the list of the arts Bob has studied - is beyond you. To avoid you having to strain your fingers looking, here's the list: Arnis, Balintawak, Bando, Escrima, Iaido / Kendo / Kenjutsu, J.K.D., Kali, Kempo / Kenpo, Ninjutsu, Taijiquan

you want discussion on this website about the smokescreen. what is driving you?

Not that I want to speak for Bob... but my guess would be that he wants a balanced, open forum where people are free to discuss their different ideas and perspectives... oh, wait, that's what he has. That means that we are all able to discuss claims rationally... most of us, anyway!

in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?

No one is attacking you personally. Quite a few people are attacking your opinions and methods - a subtle, but distinct difference.

Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.

As I said previously, you are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome to mine. I have met Taekwon-Do practitioners who lie - but I have met practitioners of quite a few other arts who lie as well.

the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.

The other facts sir? look at

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net

So you keep saying. If that's all you have to say - well, you've seen the opinions of others about your site... thankfully, we are welcome to our own opinions, as you are to yours - which means we can disagree with you, privately, publicly, on the web, however we like.

Now let me ask you some questions: Why do you care? What has TKD done to you that you are so set in your negative opinion? And is your problem with the art, some of the people, what?

No matter how much problem you have with a style - and it's obvious that you have quite a chip on your shoulder where TKD is concerned - no matter how much you dislike it for whatever reason you feel that you have - that does not outweigh my experience with the many wonderful people I have met while practicing TKD. The foundation of TKD could be smoke and mirrors, and that would not change my opinion of the people I have met and been influenced by through TKD, nor could it change my opinion of TKD itself.

Do have a nice day.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

You are welcome to your opinion, as we are welcome to ours. Apparently, however, you feel that only you are entitled to an opinion.



An interesting statement, given the egotism necessary to state that you - and only you - could possibly be correct.



Hmm... who keeps responding to this thread? People are responding to your statements - perhaps if you could stop your insistence on the last word, the thread could have died a quiet death.



Again... you are welcome to your opinion, and I am welcome to mine. Your experience with TKD has been poor; mine has been quite good - because of the people I have had the privilege to encounter. There are good and bad people everywhere - so what? I have met bad people in TKD, and good people. I choose to emphasize the positive rather than the negative; you choose to emphasize the negative rather than the positive. Those who interact with you and are the target of such an opinion on a regular and personal basis have my condolences.



Yes, I believe she is.



Hmm... again, people are welcome to their own interpretation of events, a concept that everyone but you seems to be willing to accept.



You posted a website that was totally outside of and counter to my 20 years of experience in Taekwon-Do, and I (as the original poster) requested commentary. How is that lying or slandering?

If you are going to create a website with the type of information on it that you do, you should expect that people will question it... and in the same medium as that in which it was presented. I see no reason why anyone should go out of their way to accommodate you by contacting you personally; you are sufficiently vitriolic here, on a moderated board, that I see no reason why anyone would want to inflict you on themselves in any other venue.

If you want people to treat you as a rational, reasonable, intelligent adult, then perhaps you should rewrite your posts so that you sound like a rational, reasonable, intelligent adult... right now, you make the 7th grade students I teach look mature, patient, and logical.

ahh.. here is my debate sir.

your denile and badmouthing me degrades this "sport" you hold so highly.

why do you care? I'm sorry but it doesn't matter if you have 40 years in this sport. your the one with the bad attitude.

lol.. my God are you serious? I have a bad attitude.

this discussion board is perfect. your all right and I should thank Mr Hubbard and his years in the sport as well.

with his permission I will ask to link this Martial talk TKD board to the www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net website

perfect!

then you can all bicker amongst yourselfs and leave me alone.

your disgusting competitive nature is what drives you all. So you attack me and force me here to do what?

talk about TKD. lol

no thanks everyone already knows how I feel about it.

The facts are what backs up it being 100% sport sir.

not the fact that is was created in the 60's it doesn't matter.

lies, deceit and more marketing lies. That is the true TKD way.

www.Taekwondograndmasters.net

and

www.Taekwondochildren.com

are two other great websites

feel free to continue bad mouthing me and bashing me as I will not return to this site.

yes.. a quite death? as you say above.

that would not even be needed I wasn't illegally brought here by badmouthing my business. Is that what you call tae kwon Do discipline? The nerve anyone has to badmouth me?

you BROUGHT me here by slander.

 

[Andrew Green]

in addition WHY? are you attacking me personally?

you made a website dedicated to attacking millions of peoples hobby and are asking why people are attacking you?

Tae kwon Doist all lie - that is my perspective.

Well not everyone can sleep standing up can they?

the facts? Tae Kwon Do was NEVER a Martial art. thats the fact.

No, that's your opinion, which is not a very common one.

The other facts sir? look at

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net

I see no facts, just assertions and opinions. So in the spirit of wikipedia which you mention in there "[citation needed]"

Tae kwon do is a martial art, one of the most practised ones in the world. Just because you define "martial art" in your own way to exclude everyone that doesn't do what you do does not make it so.

In fact, I would bet that under many peoples understanding of the term your attitude towards other systems and unwillingness to stand by your opinions in public view would go very much against the spirit of martial arts training.

 

[GenshinKiDojo]

First off, you are dead wrong about Exile.

Secondly, re:



You are sadly mistaken if you think all taekwondo is sport taekwondo.

Training TKD for 10+ years didn't inhibit MY ability to punch to the head; it enhanced my ability to do so. And in a self defense situation, I was not "instantly destroyed." My attacker was rendered unconcious with a single punch to the head.

I guess you have never heard of, for example, Pu Gil Gwon, what his job was, and how taekwondo enabled him to be very effective in his job, either, eh?

I agree that there have been misrepresentations about the origins of TKD. But maybe you should do some in-depth research into taekwondo before you support a Website that gives such a narrow, uniformed view of a this art.

www.TaeKwonDoTimes.net