A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[chrispillertkd]

I don't know if I am the most senior here. I don't think so. I do "believe" that I am more senior that you though, right?

Your rank isn't anything to me I do believe you like being senior to people, though, even if your repeatedly say rank isn't important

Also, what you describe as "testy", others, such as the people who run MT, describe it as "passionate". They want me here, they like me here, MT Taekwondo section is very different since my arrival. But I don't really "know", that's just what they tell me.

:lol: I'm sure they do.

As for your judgment of me as being disrespectful to General Choi, I asked my senior about that and their response was that I was not disrespecting General Choi, General Choi disrespected himself with his lies, and that I was showing respect to my seniors by calling him on his lies.

So, it's OK to be disrespectful to your seniors if someone else tells you it's OK? Got it! :lol: That's odd since last I knew you yourself said a junior has no say in the matter :lol: Like I said, Glenn, you like to hold yourself to a different standard than the rest of us. Whatever let's you sleep easy at night, brother :lol:

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Your rank isn't anything to me I do believe you like being senior to people, though, even if your repeatedly say rank isn't important



:lol: I'm sure they do.



So, it's OK to be disrespectful to your seniors if someone else tells you it's OK? Got it! :lol: That's odd since last I knew you yourself said a junior has no say in the matter :lol: Like I said, Glenn, you like to hold yourself to a different standard than the rest of us. Whatever let's you sleep easy at night, brother :lol:

Pax,

Chris

no problem kid. Read it anyway you want. It's all your "belief" anyway, right?

 

[chrispillertkd]

I love the fact that you still call me "kid" because "people" told you I was 29 :lol: Do you know my age, too, even though I'm not 29? :lol:

Belief vs. knowledge, Glenn. I figured someone who likes to talk about how smart they are would get that elementary distinction

Now, I believe you don't like double standards so is it OK if a junior insults and disrepests you since you're doing that to your senior? Or would that be wrong for some reason even though it's OK for you?

Pax brother,

Chris

 

[puunui]

I love the fact that you still call me "kid" because "people" told you I was 29 :lol: Do you know my age, too, even though I'm not 29? :lol:

Belief vs. knowledge, Glenn. I figured someone who likes to talk about how smart they are would get that elementary distinction

Now, I believe you don't like double standards so is it OK if a junior insults and disrepests you since you're doing that to your senior? Or would that be wrong for some reason even though it's OK for you?

Pax brother,

Chris

Do whatever you want kid. You will anyway.

 

[terryl965]

Do whatever you want kid. You will anyway.

Come on Glen please stop calling him a kid, it is dis-respectful. Just for the record who here on MT said that you have brought TKD to the section like it was never here? It was here long before me and will probaly be here long after me, you assume so much that people think of you that highly. What happen to intregrity,rspect, humble or any of those tenets that we should be living by.

Now I have no problem with you except for the fact you are always right and everybody else is wrong, but wait that is not totally correct since the WTF and KKW are going in different diection and seperating the sport and the technical side of TKD but than again I know they are not because you say so even though it is on the wall. Finally you said it ddoes not brother you because it does not pretain to you but once again if unification is so important and that is what the senior wanted why is the seperation being made?

But wait that cannot be right because once again you and your seniors say so, please so me where this unification is coming from since everything else point in another direction?

The last thing everytime someone corners you you say but that is not true or give us names or we are reading wrong or the seniors do not care and so on. It would be nice if you could provide proof that the KKW and the WTF are on the same page beside somebody is telling you, please give me names and addresses so I can reach them for a converstation but I know I am not worthly because I am a lonely person with little knowledge of anything. One day I will grow up and be a real TKD person and who knows the Easter Bunny will stop by with some candy as well.

I will apologies to the members and people of MT but I simply am tired of all this I am holly than all of you attitude that some have around here.:asian:

 

[chrispillertkd]

Do whatever you want kid. You will anyway.

But I didn't say anything about what I was going to do or not do. You should know that since you obviously read my post. There was no mention of anything about what I would do or not do in it. To wit:

I love the fact that you still call me "kid" because "people" told you I was 29 :lol: Do you know my age, too, even though I'm not 29? :lol:

Belief vs. knowledge, Glenn. I figured someone who likes to talk about how smart they are would get that elementary distinction

Now, I believe you don't like double standards so is it OK if a junior insults and disrepests you since you're doing that to your senior? Or would that be wrong for some reason even though it's OK for you?

Pax brother,

Chris

As you can plainly see, Glenn, I was asking you about what you thought if people who are junior to you do the same thing to you that you do to your seniors. It's a simple question to answer, don't you think? (Or was I wrong in my belief that you dislike double standards?)

Oh, and how about answering that question of mine about whether or not you know I'm 29 because that's what people "told" you. Even though I'm not 29 Gee it's almost as if people can say something that isn't true and you think you have knowledge when all you have is belief :lol:

Pax brother,

Chris

 

[KarateMomUSA]

If you have any facts to support your position, then I would like to hear them. But if all you are doing is voicing your "opinion", without supporting facts.... There is a difference between discussing facts and voicing opinion without facts. Please don't get upset with me because I support my position with facts, and the other side does not.

Part of the problem as I see it, is that TKD, while it came from common roots, its subsequent development took place on more than 1 path & also under more than 1 name, initially. So a more full telling of the history, should I think include info on how the other than Kukki TKD developed, that's all.
Now either TKD is one or it is not.
If it is one, than all the TKD groups can have their respective paths of development recorded & shared for all to see their both roots & those people responsible for giving them what they have today.
If TKD is not one, then still all groups deserve to have their respective paths of development recorded for all to see their both roots & those people responsible for giving them what they have today. If other than their TKD group wants to share in reading that development, fine, as there is nothing wrong with reading about recorded history.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

...seven koreans, six kwans, giving credit to General Choi, nasty korean politics, etc...

Yes there were 7 Koreans that lived abroad during the occupation period for various reasons often related to trying to get access to a better life & future. While outside of Korea, they were also exposed to the martial arts. These 7 men played a role in either opening or teaching at the 5 original kwans & the ODK or what I call the early kwans.
(I am sure that there were more Koreans, but they were not really involved in TKD, they were Hapkido, etc, so no need to add confusion by listing them)
While Gen choi deserves some credit, as do many others, for his involvement in the early days of the formative years, he also was someone who fought the Kukki TKD & Olympic movement, so he not only does not deserve any credit for that, it should be recorded in history how he was a negative influence & was hated by some for it. This is history, as well as what he did, along with his team that gave the world Chang Hon TKD, which of course was already being developed, recorded & spread around the world before the KtkdA (1965), KKW (1972) & WTF (1973) were even formed. This is history & it should be recorded & those that made it happen & spread it around the world should be credited & thanked in some fashion, as it happened. To deny it is beyond silly & implies some sort of partisanship. Let me restate yet again, the credit is not limited to Gen Choi, there are many, maybe even countless, that deserve credit & thanks. I for one am more interested in raising the count, not limiting it or ignoring it. TKD history has all too often done that, with self serving versions & myths about 2,000 years ago. TKD is a 20th century creation, that of course has influences from aspects of Korean culture which can go back some centuries.
While many TKD students may not be interested in history, even the history of their TKD, maybe even less are interested in Korean politics or the larger geo-political arena that TKD developed in. Please just look at Eygpt & Tunisia today. They give us prime examples of how nasty politics effect almost all aspects of how the people live under their govts. All one has to do is read about how Korea evolved into its 21st century version to see how lives, events & aspects of their lives & lives were affected. To not see how this shaped both TKD & its leaders in both positive & negative ways, is simply not looking at a more larger scope & more of the picture.
Few things that I am aware of develop or take place in a vacuum.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I gave you a simple example, GM Son's stance. If you wish to characterize that as belief vs. knowledge, go ahead. But it doesn't change the fact that GM Son's stances are much wider than what was going on at the Chung Do Kwan during the 1940's.

While that certainly is a difference, is it a big difference or the only difference?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

...a bit testy whenever someone disagrees with you...
...juniors should respect their seniors...

There should be little reason for anyone getting testy & respect should be a 2 way street.
Exchange of info on a public discussion forum can have benefits, but we always have to carefully evaluate info obtained in such a fashion.

I know I am stating the obvious, but felt a need to state it, for obvious reasons)

 

[KarateMomUSA]

As for your judgment of me as being disrespectful to General Choi, I asked my senior about that and their response was that I was not disrespecting General Choi, General Choi disrespected himself with his lies, and that I was showing respect to my seniors by calling him on his lies.

I find little problem with highlighting any info that is not factual in basis.
However you also seem to not want to credit anything positive Gen Choi did, along with his team, in spreading their TKD around the world, which resulted in many wonderful benefits from those that participated in their system of TKD or shared parts of it.
We are all TKD or we are not.
The battles of foes in the past, do not have to be wage now or in the future, especially if we are all TKD.
I find much less bickering between members of other martial arts with each other & their exchanges, than those doing the same martial art of TKD. That to me is sad.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Come on Glen please stop calling him a kid, it is dis-respectful. Just for the record who here on MT said that you have brought TKD to the section like it was never here? It was here long before me and will probaly be here long after me, you assume so much that people think of you that highly. What happen to intregrity,rspect, humble or any of those tenets that we should be living by.
Now I have no problem with you except for the fact you are always right and everybody else is wrong, but wait that is not totally correct since the WTF and KKW are going in different diection and seperating the sport and the technical side of TKD but than again I know they are not because you say so even though it is on the wall. Finally you said it ddoes not brother you because it does not pretain to you but once again if unification is so important and that is what the senior wanted why is the seperation being made?
But wait that cannot be right because once again you and your seniors say so, please so me where this unification is coming from since everything else point in another direction?
The last thing everytime someone corners you you say but that is not true or give us names or we are reading wrong or the seniors do not care and so on. It would be nice if you could provide proof that the KKW and the WTF are on the same page beside somebody is telling you, please give me names and addresses so I can reach them for a converstation but I know I am not worthly because I am a lonely person with little knowledge of anything. One day I will grow up and be a real TKD person and who knows the Easter Bunny will stop by with some candy as well.
I will apologies to the members and people of MT but I simply am tired of all this I am holly than all of you attitude that some have around here.:asian:

There were several events that took place in south Korea with TKD. These events resulted in people being arrested, convicted & serving prison time & or other forms of punishment. Since TKD is so valuable to Korea & the Korean people, the Korean National Assembly put in reforms to help "reform" TKD. There are new presidents of the KTA, KKW & WTF. While this may help reform movements, it can also hamper in some ways organizational efficiency, the cooperation between the groups & can also create divisions & pulling in different directions with various priorities that may or may not be shared totally by all. So south Korean TKD is in some sort of transition phase & how they sort things out will have long reaching effect for many & for some time. So I for one wish them well.

I think that these various movements may not only be "moving" in different directions, but both participants & observers may vary in what they think is important or what they thing should happen & who should make it happen. At times these feelings can be very strong, because to many, these issues are so very important. So it is understandable that tensions can led to hard feelings & the like.

I wish that all can work to make TKD better. The hard part is deciding how that is best done.

 

[puunui]

As you can plainly see, Glenn, I was asking you about what you thought if people who are junior to you do the same thing to you that you do to your seniors.

I think it's good. My direct seniors all say that I am a very good junior. If I wasn't a good junior, then I wouldn't gain access to the type of information that I have access to. As for disrespecting General Choi, I understand that is your belief. However, I think Harry Truman said it best: "http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/3255.htmlI never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth, and they thought it was hell." Similarly, I never did disrespect General Choi. I just told the truth, and you thought it was disrespect.

 

[puunui]

I wish that all can work to make TKD better. The hard part is deciding how that is best done.

Mr. Vitale, are you angling for Kukkiwon certification? Is that what this is all about for you?

 

[puunui]

Exchange of info on a public discussion forum can have benefits, but we always have to carefully evaluate info obtained in such a fashion.

Again, there has been no exchange of information; rather it's me giving you facts and then you twisting it with your commentary, so that General Choi can get some credit, along with the seven Koreans, six kwans, etc.

 

[puunui]

Pax brother, Chris

No problem kid.

 

[puunui]

Come on Glen please stop calling him a kid, it is dis-respectful.

If you read carefully, you will notice that I only call him kid when he calls me brother. I am not his brother. If he doesn't want me to call him kid, then he needs to stop referring to me as his brother. If he doesn't mind me calling him kid, then he should continue to refer to me as brother.

Just for the record who here on MT said that you have brought TKD to the section like it was never here? It was here long before me and will probaly be here long after me, you assume so much that people think of you that highly. What happen to intregrity,rspect, humble or any of those tenets that we should be living by.

That's not what I said, but I have no doubt in my mind that is what you think I said.

This is what I said: "I don't know if I am the most senior here. I don't think so. I do "believe" that I am more senior that you though, right? Also, what you describe as "testy", others, such as the people who run MT, describe it as "passionate". They want me here, they like me here, MT Taekwondo section is very different since my arrival. But I don't really "know", that's just what they tell me. "

Finally you said it ddoes not brother you because it does not pretain to you but once again if unification is so important and that is what the senior wanted why is the seperation being made?

I am not active either as a coach, referee or competitor at WTF International Events, so I don't need a license or membership card. I explained this before, WTF and Kukkiwon have different functions, but that doesn't mean they are separated.

It would be nice if you could provide proof that the KKW and the WTF are on the same page beside somebody is telling you, please give me names and addresses so I can reach them for a converstation

It is very hard to follow your train of thought. But, the answer to your question is I already did. You probably missed it. But for you, again, the President of the Kukkiwon is an alumni of Kyung Hee University, the school in which the WTF President's father founded and the Choue family owns. President Choue's base of support is through the Kyung Hee alumni network. His strongest supporters at the WTF are Kyung Hee alumni, to the point where some people complain about the fact that you almost have to be a Kyung Hee alumni in order to work at the WTF offices. The WTF Secretary General is a Kyung Hee alumni. So the Kukkiwon president, who is also a Kyung Hee alumni, has been making an effort to show up at WTF events and they take pictures of the two presidents together which they publish on the WTF and Kukkiwon webpage, something that none of the previous Kukkiwon presidents have done with President Choue. If you want, you can call up either President Choue at the WTF or President Kang at the Kukkiwon and have a conversation with them to confirm. Or you can go look on the WTF and Kukkiwon webpages in the news sections and see everyone smiling for the camera together for yourself.

 

[terryl965]

This is what I said: "I don't know if I am the most senior here. I don't think so. I do "believe" that I am more senior that you though, right? Also, what you describe as "testy", others, such as the people who run MT, describe it as "passionate". They want me here, they like me here, MT Taekwondo section is very different since my arrival. But I don't really "know", that's just what they tell me. "


Which people that run MT, would that be Bob Hubbard? So Bob has told you he likes you here and he wants you here? Sure it is different with all the decussion but it has been the top place here on MT for years, it has always been the busies place on MT. Once again who is they?

Please give names or screen names, you require people to give names so why do you not follow what you ask?


am not active either as a coach, referee or competitor at WTF International Events, so I don't need a license or membership card. I explained this before, WTF and Kukkiwon have different functions, but that doesn't mean they are separated.

So I beg to defer on this they are two seperate parts of TKD, one process certificates and has a limited curriculum, while the other governs the sport side of TKD. I do not see them as one or working together, when it comes down to money they will fight and argue over who should get what. The one thing that TKD has a croos the board is greed and plenty of it.

Me and you will never see eye to eye on alot of things but the one thing we have in common is the love for our brand of TKD even though it maybe so different but yet it remains so much the same. Keep telling and explaining your version of TKD and what your future may bring because I am keeping notes from you and George(karatemom) and other to keep for my sons to look at twenty to thirty years from now. It is always good to look into the past to see where the future would go.

I have some paperwork from the seventies that predicted that when General Choi died the ITF would split and it did, so greed was a factor in that as well. I have learned so much over the months of what people would believe versus what they have been told and what is written and I am looking forward to some more great pieces to add to the journal.:asian:

 

[puunui]

Which people that run MT, would that be Bob Hubbard? So Bob has told you he likes you here and he wants you here?

Yes, it was Mr. Hubbard. Go ask him if you don't "believe" me.

So I beg to defer on this they are two seperate parts of TKD, one process certificates and has a limited curriculum, while the other governs the sport side of TKD. I do not see them as one or working together, when it comes down to money they will fight and argue over who should get what. The one thing that TKD has a croos the board is greed and plenty of it.

Believe what you want. I really don't care if you agree with me or not at this point. Frankly, if that is how you wish to see it, as some sort of divided thing, then more power to you. You might just get your wish, because presently, we have maniacs at the wheel, at USAT, WTF and Kukkiwon. We get to see what happens when individualistic free agents think they can and should run with the ball.

Keep telling and explaining your version of TKD and what your future may bring because I am keeping notes from you and George(karatemom) and other to keep for my sons to look at twenty to thirty years from now. It is always good to look into the past to see where the future would go.

What good is keeping notes from me if you misconstrue and misunderstand what I write? I can say one thing about conversing or interacting with my seniors, is that we never have this kind of issue. It's a waste of time having to go over it and over it and over it. Sometimes I feel like a special education teacher. Why can't we be a gifted and talented group instead, where the highest bar is out goal, instead of constantly arguing for the lowest common denominator? It really makes me cynical about the future, because if we have to go over and over, if we make simple stuff overly complicated, how can we possibly tackle the larger issues that are facing us? Think about your position for a minute and then project it out. Do you see a positive outcome for Taekwondo? Is your "Wall Street greed" outlook going to take us where we need to go?

Put another way, I'm trying to improve Taekwondo and Taekwondoin by reaching out and giving them hope for a better future, a future where our children, or students and our juniors have it better than we did. What are you trying to do, stop me?

 

[terryl965]

I keep notes just for records for my family since they will be apart of TKD for a longtime like me. I am glad Bob thinks you are good for hear, you help bring in numbers to the site that is good on any chat line.

One thing we agree on is the USAT, WTF and KKW are in turmoil, so that is a starting point for me atleast.

You have it wrong not trying to stop anybody just trying to make people see other views and not be like a race horse and have blinders on for the entire race.