Are we reducing or cheapened what it takes to be considered brave or to be a hero?

[dvcochran]

Great questions.

What if the EMT was a member of the Proud Boys?

You are the MT equivalent of a radio shock jock.

 

[Steve]

You are the MT equivalent of a radio shock jock.

Says the guy who started his last post with, "Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book." And the previous post where you say, "I would try to explain but I get the feeling it would be pointless."

So, you're on a roll. Three posts in a row that add zero value to the discussion.

Also, for what it's worth, my post was a tongue in cheek response. If you took a second and were just a little more self aware, I think it would have been obvious to you.

 

[ShortBridge]

Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book. How/where you get the flag or patriotism as 'vague concepts' is offensive and an outright glaring indication of your ignorance. You think either construct is political? Dude. The Faulkland islands war was between Argentina and the United Kingdom.

Who said anything about all hero's dying 'bloody violent deaths'? Jumping to a rather irrational extreme aren't we? It is pretty clear what Kool-Aid you are drinking. Sad.

You know, I'll make one attempt to dialogue with you and then I'm out.

I am aware of the facts of the Falklands conflict. Quite aware, know my history pretty well, spent some time in Argentina. I've even read some books, if you can believe that. I chose that as example because I thought it was least likely to trigger somebody. Clearly I was mistaken.

As for the rest of your outrage...read what I wrote again more carefully or move on. You're twisting it into something that is different in substance and sentiment than what it is.

If that doesn't work for you, I suggest putting me on your ignore list.

 

[JR 137]

Okay. Real quick. First, she may not appreciate it. Not everyone does.

Second, your position is entirely different from hers, which is entirely different from the grocery store employees mentioned in the OP. My point is that you're creating a straw man by articulating your thoughts about your own situation, and that because you don't consider yourself a hero, grocery store employees shouldn't either. Whether it happens to be true or not is incidental. The connection between your situation and a grocery store employees is superficial at best.

Third, whether the grocery store employees believe themselves to be heroes or not is independent of the gesture. I would expect most grocery store employees do not feel like heroes. It's a gesture of support and appreciation by their employer. Sometimes, when they are sincere and perceived as sincere by the employees, they are very helpful. When they are insincere or even perceived as insincere by employees, they can actually make morale worse. But if the question is, does this gesture dilute the word so that we can't distinguish between the risks of a well paid lab employee with minimal risk of exposure vs an underpaid grocery store employee at high risk of exposure vs an ER nurse with very high risk of exposure vs a bystander who runs into a burning house to save two children and a dog from certain death, I think the integrity of the relative language is safe.

I never said anyone has to think like me. Not sure how this is an argument (in the literal sense, not the typically thought of sense). People can consider themselves heros, and I can agree or disagree with their feelings. If the grocery store cashier who cashed me out today or the woman at the bagel shop who served me a dozen bagels to go consider themselves heros is their business. More power to them.

I don’t consider them heros. I just consider them people who are working and putting up with even more BS than usual. Good on them for doing their job and keeping things going. It would really suck if they and everyone else who’s doing similar work refused to. I sincerely mean that. But I don’t consider that heroic. Doing the right thing? Absolutely. If they appreciate being called heros, that’s their call. I won’t do it, but I won’t voice my opinion to them either. I just don’t care to get into that debate. And frankly, I’ve given this debate far more energy than I should’ve.

My interpretation of a hero is different than others’. Everyone’s entitled to their own interpretation. Everyone can acknowledge or renounce their hero status, and it won’t change how I go about my day in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Steve]

I never said anyone has to think like me. Not sure how this is an argument (in the literal sense, not the typically thought of sense). People can consider themselves heros, and I can agree or disagree with their feelings. If the grocery store cashier who cashed me out today or the woman at the bagel shop who served me a dozen bagels to go consider themselves heros is their business. More power to them.

I don’t consider them heros. I just consider them people who are working and putting up with even more BS than usual. Good on them for doing their job and keeping things going. It would really suck if they and everyone else who’s doing similar work refused to. I sincerely mean that. But I don’t consider that heroic. Doing the right thing? Absolutely. If they appreciate being called heros, that’s their call. I won’t do it, but I won’t voice my opinion to them either. I just don’t care to get into that debate. And frankly, I’ve given this debate far more energy than I should’ve.

My interpretation of a hero is different than others’. Everyone’s entitled to their own interpretation. Everyone can acknowledge or renounce their hero status, and it won’t change how I go about my day in any way, shape, or form.

Argument not in the negative sense. But if you have a premise and a conclusion, it's an argument.

I respect your opinion. We don't have to agree, though with that said, if you think I'm trying to convince you that they are heroes, I don't think I was clear because that's not my point.

 

[_Simon_]

They are not heroes....sorry. They are people just doing their jobs during this pandemic.

Years ago, during a shootout with a Aryan brotherhood member in a motel parking lot, a couple EMTs went into the parking lot to render aid to one of the officers down while the gunfight was going on....while rendering aid one of them was shot in the leg......those EMTs are heroes.

NFL running back Joe Delaney jumped in a pond to save three drowning children although he couldn't swim himself....he saved the children but drown doing so....he is a hero.

People should just take pride in doing their job without needing to have smoke blown up their ****. They should be shown appreciation but claiming they are heroes.....come on now. In my opinion, it's silly.

Couldn’t agree more. A hero needs to truly go above and beyond. Risking their life when that’s not in the job description is a good measuring stick IMO.

Showing up to work and routinely doing what’s expected of you in your job description doesn’t make you a hero. General you, of course. Not anyone personally.

I’m showing up every day and making medicine. I was paid to do that before this mess, and I’m still being paid to do the same job during this mess. That doesn’t make me anything other than an employee who’s doing his job. If there was an active shooter on campus and I braved that to get into my work area and kept making medicine, then ok. But would that be hero or just plain stupid and insubordinate?

Hmm.. same job/task, different context though.

They're now putting themselves at much higher risk, and choosing to do so. Especially those who may work in supermarkets, something that everyone needs, and will attract huge numbers of people.

They're exposing themselves to hundreds of people each and every day they're out there. I know I'd be anxious about that at the moment if I worked in supermarkets.

I don't know about it being a hero status, but I would certainly attribute some level of bravery.

In the past, me simply getting out of bed each and every day was incredibly brave. Won't go into details, but for me, it took immense courage to do that, overcoming alot of rather intense stuff to do that and even function. Whereas in 'normal' circumstances for people, it's not even thought of as being anything more than a trivial task.

Just pickles for nickels! Or food for.. thought..

May just be what we see bravery as, as a working definition *shrugs shoulders*. Different circumstances and context in which something is done to me denote what makes something brave.

 

[granfire]

Frankly, that is hilariously over dramatic. You clearly did not 'hear' what CB Jones wrote. I would try to explain but I get the feeling it is pointless.

yikes.
Somebody tinkle in your Wheaties?

I read what he wrote and I don't see it the same way.
It is a matter of opinion.
But thanks for playing.

 

[jobo]

Wow. Did you not have a history class in grade school? Read a book. How/where you get the flag or patriotism as 'vague concepts' is offensive and an outright glaring indication of your ignorance. You think either construct is political? Dude. The Faulkland islands war was between Argentina and the United Kingdom.

Who said anything about all hero's dying 'bloody violent deaths'? Jumping to a rather irrational extreme aren't we? It is pretty clear what Kool-Aid you are drinking. Sad.

patriotism is a vague and somewhat variable concept that has been used for thousands of years to get mostly young and somewhat naive men to give up their life health or mental well being so that other can get richer or more powerful. im not saying dieing in defence of your country isnt an honourable thing, rather its not generally used for that purpose and even then people are sacrificed for expediency

if you want to see the real value of patriotism, you need to look at how these who have suffered harm or the dependent of those that died are treated when its all over ? generally pretty badly to be honest

 

[Steve]

if you want to see the real value of patriotism, you need to look at how these who have suffered harm or the dependent of those that died are treated when its all over ? generally pretty badly to be honest

I don't know how things are at this time in the UK, but we are at a time in our country when our president has yet to address bounties placed on our soldiers heads by a foreign country about 20 days after the news became public (much less when he was briefed about it in February), while simultaneously wrapping themselves in the flag and calling that patriotism, I appreciate your distinction between real patriotism and the lip service it often receives. Another example is the awful language used by Fox news recently toward Tammy Duckworth, having the audacity to question her patriotism. It's awful what's happening now. FWIW, I'd characterize Tammy Duckworth as a hero, not for her purple heart, but for the support and advocacy she has given to vets, and disabled vets in particular. The guy who pulled her out of the helicopter after it was hit is a hero, though.

 

[jobo]

I don't know how things are at this time in the UK, but we are at a time in our country when our president has yet to address bounties placed on our soldiers heads by a foreign country about 20 days after the news became public (much less when he was briefed about it in February), while simultaneously wrapping themselves in the flag and calling that patriotism, I appreciate your distinction between real patriotism and the lip service it often receives. Another example is the awful language used by Fox news recently toward Tammy Duckworth, having the audacity to question her patriotism. It's awful what's happening now.

I don't know how things are at this time in the UK, but we are at a time in our country when our president has yet to address bounties placed on our soldiers heads by a foreign country about 20 days after the news became public (much less when he was briefed about it in February), while simultaneously wrapping themselves in the flag and calling that patriotism, I appreciate your distinction between real patriotism and the lip service it often receives. Another example is the awful language used by Fox news recently toward Tammy Duckworth, having the audacity to question her patriotism. It's awful what's happening now.

im not really aware of tammy, she hasnt made much impression over here, i just read a quick bio on her

i watch american politics as entertainment, much as i watch world title fights, its interesting but doesn't really effect me, though its seem that some very unfortunate elements of it are being imported here

as an interested spectator rather than a participant , i see a society tearing its self apart, with both sides calling the other racists and or traitors or variations on such, having long abandoned any semblance of intellectual honesty

im judging that this is deliberate on both sides, as presenting no middle ground to the electorate is forcing them to choose a polarised position that only one side can address

the next election, no matter which way it goes will still leave a very damaged country

though tammy postion that statutes should be subject to discussion seems to please nobody much, so her long term future seems in doubt,, cant have people who are rational in power, where will that end up ?

 

[Steve]

im not really aware of tammy, she hasnt made much impression over here, i just read a quick bio on her

i watch american politics as entertainment, much as i watch world title fights, its interesting but doesn't really effect me, though its seem that some very unfortunate elements of it are being imported here

as an interested spectator rather than a participant , i see a society tearing its self apart, with both sides calling the other racists and or traitors or variations on such, having long abandoned any semblance of intellectual honesty

im judging that this is deliberate on both sides, as presenting no middle ground to the electorate is forcing them to choose a polarised position that only one side can address

the next election, no matter which way it goes will still leave a very damaged country

though tammy postion that statutes should be subject to discussion seems to please nobody much, so her long term future seems in doubt,, cant have people who are rational in power, where will that end up ?

Getting a little off track, but really the only knock against her within the democratic party is a perceived lack of polish. I haven't heard any rational person voice concerns about her comments regarding the statues of Washington and others. There have been a few pot shots taken to test the Fox news base's appetite for questioning a disabled veteran's patriotism, and it didn't go so well considering Tucker is on a sudden "vacation." Based on what I've read, she's on the short list for possible VP picks for the Biden ticket. Right now, I think it's her along with Kamala Harris, Susan Rice, Elizabeth Warren, Stacy Abrams, and the mayor of Atlanta (can't remember her name). Of course, the process is always very secret, so who knows what will happen?

 

[dvcochran]

yikes.
Somebody tinkle in your Wheaties?

I read what he wrote and I don't see it the same way.
It is a matter of opinion.
But thanks for playing.

Nope. I don't like Wheaties. Why is it okay for protesters/rioters to spit in the faces of people just trying to get something worse started but when someone with a different 'matter of opinion' speaks out it s seen as wrong? C'mon.

There is still WAY, way, way more right in this country than wrong. I do think the the political tension is nearing a tipping point. I have never seen the pre-amble of an election year get so bad. However the virus got here, it is Way out of bounds for either side to use it as a tool for political gain. That is about all one side is doing.

Having the ability of instant information is great, astounding. But when it is used for the wrong purpose (other than to purely inform) it is a tool deadlier than any bomb or missile out there.

On one side you have a strong-willed, out spoken non-political leader who rubs a lot of people the wrong way because he does not really care if he 'hurts your feelings'. Political people just do not know how to deal with him. Put him in a room full of movers and shakers and he facilitates documented positive change over and over in every pertinent category. He is much more focused on the end results than getting there delicately.
On the other side you have a fractured party who is backing an alzheimer compromised lifetime political puppet with little accomplishment to hang his hat on, knowing they can lead him around by his nose ring.
The waters between being a liberal and a leftist have become so muddied (by intention I believe) and they prey on mis-information and weak minded wills.

I wish more/most people would get outside whatever their regular circle is to see life and reality from a fuller perspective.

 

[jobo]

Getting a little off track, but really the only knock against her within the democratic party is a perceived lack of polish. I haven't heard any rational person voice concerns about her comments regarding the statues of Washington and others. There have been a few pot shots taken to test the Fox news base's appetite for questioning a disabled veteran's patriotism, and it didn't go so well considering Tucker is on a sudden "vacation." Based on what I've read, she's on the short list for possible VP picks for the Biden ticket. Right now, I think it's her along with Kamala Harris, Susan Rice, Elizabeth Warren, Stacy Abrams, and the mayor of Atlanta (can't remember her name). Of course, the process is always very secret, so who knows what will happen?

lack of polish is code for off message, if the parties message is,,, that anyone one who disagrees is automatically a racist/traitors, then varying from that position by giving rational judgements is unlikely to play well with those who make such choices

imagine what will happen if she started doing that in the election campaign, truth is the first causality of war and elections

 

[Steve]

lack of polish is code for off message, if the parties message is,,, that anyone one who disagrees is automatically a racist/traitors, then varying from that position by giving rational judgements is unlikely to play well with those who make such choices

imagine what will happen if she started doing that in the election campaign, truth is the first causality of war and elections

In this case, lack of polish means she's not as polished a speaker as some of the other folks in consideration. I don't think the message is what you think the message is. Anyway, we'll move off politics and just see what happens.

 

[Steve]

Nope. I don't like Wheaties. Why is it okay for protesters/rioters to spit in the faces of people just trying to get something worse started but when someone with a different 'matter of opinion' speaks out it s seen as wrong? C'mon.

Tear gas, batons, rubber bullets fired at point blank range into the faces of protesters... come on.

There is still WAY, way, way more right in this country than wrong. I do think the the political tension is nearing a tipping point. I have never seen the pre-amble of an election year get so bad. However the virus got here, it is Way out of bounds for either side to use it as a tool for political gain. That is about all one side is doing.

Totally agree, and if the right wing would just stop politicizing it, we'd be in a completely different situation right now, looking more like Europe or China or New Zealand. But no, we can't have nice things in the USA and as a result, we are literally banned from travelling to Canada.

The rest of your silliness is, as i said in another thread, not surprising at all. Just out of curiosity, are you a veteran?

 

[dvcochran]

You know, I'll make one attempt to dialogue with you and then I'm out.

I am aware of the facts of the Falklands conflict. Quite aware, know my history pretty well, spent some time in Argentina. I've even read some books, if you can believe that. I chose that as example because I thought it was least likely to trigger somebody. Clearly I was mistaken.

As for the rest of your outrage...read what I wrote again more carefully or move on. You're twisting it into something that is different in substance and sentiment than what it is.

If that doesn't work for you, I suggest putting me on your ignore list.

Okay; can you be succinct and clearer in what you are saying for us lesser people? I read no other point in your post other than taking a poke. I countered in order, simple as that.

I will not put you on ignore or move on. Help us get to a middle ground where we understand each other better. I get that this is harder to do when having a conversation on a screen vs. in person.

Here is my input; talking about the flag or patriotism are upper order constructs for me and most other people about their respective country I feel. Most of these people are not outspoken about it; largely because it is/was an implied concept that required no elaborate explanation. But in the las 20 years or so certain factions began a mission to change the perspective of the meaning of such words. The agenda has perpetuated and morphed into something much worse. Sadly, I fully believe the only remedy will come in the form of a large scale conflict. Now explain to me how that makes any sense at all and more so how is that not apparent?

 

[dvcochran]

Tear gas, batons, rubber bullets fired at point blank range into the faces of protesters... come on. Totally agree, and if the right wing would just stop politicizing it, we'd be in a completely different situation right now, looking more like Europe or China or New Zealand. But no, we can't have nice things in the USA and as a result, we are literally banned from travelling to Canada.

The rest of your silliness is, as i said in another thread, not surprising at all. Just out of curiosity, are you a veteran?

You don't have nice things? You agree that the current travel bans have an element of politics to them? Now we are seeing some things eye to eye.

 

[Chrisinmd]

you really cant lock people up and then charge them rent, thats just silly

I actually worked as a corrections officer in a prison for a few years. They actually do charge some of them rent to be in prison. Some of the inmates got to leave the prison everyday and work jobs outside the prison and then come back everyday after work and go to there cells. They had money withheld from their paycheck for "rent".

 

[jobo]

Nope. I don't like Wheaties. Why is it okay for protesters/rioters to spit in the faces of people just trying to get something worse started but when someone with a different 'matter of opinion' speaks out it s seen as wrong? C'mon.

There is still WAY, way, way more right in this country than wrong. I do think the the political tension is nearing a tipping point. I have never seen the pre-amble of an election year get so bad. However the virus got here, it is Way out of bounds for either side to use it as a tool for political gain. That is about all one side is doing.

Having the ability of instant information is great, astounding. But when it is used for the wrong purpose (other than to purely inform) it is a tool deadlier than any bomb or missile out there.

On one side you have a strong-willed, out spoken non-political leader who rubs a lot of people the wrong way because he does not really care if he 'hurts your feelings'. Political people just do not know how to deal with him. Put him in a room full of movers and shakers and he facilitates documented positive change over and over in every pertinent category. He is much more focused on the end results than getting there delicately.
On the other side you have a fractured party who is backing an alzheimer compromised lifetime political puppet with little accomplishment to hang his hat on, knowing they can lead him around by his nose ring.
The waters between being a liberal and a leftist have become so muddied (by intention I believe) and they prey on mis-information and weak minded wills.

I wish more/most people would get outside whatever their regular circle is to see life and reality from a fuller perspective.

for once i totally agree with you, both sides are playing to the most extreme of their supporters, leaving people who have more nuanced views nowhere to go, but to the extremes of opinion

and bothsides are being deliberate and calculated in this as they believe it gives them the best chance of winning, but it come at significant social cost, as its sowing significant division and violence and hatred, that will take generations to recover from, if it happens at all

 

[jobo]

I actually worked as a corrections officer in a prison for a few years. They actually do charge some of them rent to be in prison. Some of the inmates got to leave the prison everyday and work jobs outside the prison and then come back everyday after work and go to there cells. They had money withheld from their paycheck for "rent".

well thats just awful