Are we heading in the right direction

[terryl965]

I was wondering who here believe the sport side of Tae Kwon Do is heading in the right direction? I mean right now if you are not in the right camps or in the right social group do your players really have a chance? What will happen when certain people get tired of being on the top, do we as a group have a pipeline of coaches and athletes to stay on top in the world?

When are we going to have a real grassroot program that will developed athletes from mid belt, not just 10-12 year old Black Belts, I know that is up to each instructor but if we do not do something to keep those training will we have enough twenty years from now? I know I am guessing and asking and nobody really knows and alot really do not care since TKD is more than a sport, but I am concern that certain groups and people are driving so many talented people out of the sport side of TKD.

 

[StudentCarl]

I was wondering who here believe the sport side of Tae Kwon Do is heading in the right direction?

It's different at the highest levels from the bottom where I am. I suspect there will always be some people who dedicate their lives to becoming Olympians, as there will be dabblers who are happy with local tournaments.

I mean right now if you are not in the right camps or in the right social group do your players really have a chance? What will happen when certain people get tired of being on the top, do we as a group have a pipeline of coaches and athletes to stay on top in the world?

I think some of the athletes on top go on to become coaches. Just like with parenting, those new coaches will try to improve on the training, recruiting, and retention methods. Results? Just like now, some will do better than others. There's no substitute for experience at the highest levels, so those folks have a marketable skill. I think the "clique effect" is present in every elite level sport.

When are we going to have a real grassroot program that will developed athletes from mid belt, not just 10-12 year old Black Belts, I know that is up to each instructor but if we do not do something to keep those training will we have enough twenty years from now?

I'm not confident the grassroots program will grow because we lack the organizational unity to unify and support those individual instructors. I don't see the unity problem changing. However, some of that is because not all instructors aspire to coach internationally or even nationally. We have an issue with instructor culture, but it's made worse by how the organization manages it.

...I am concern that certain groups and people are driving so many talented people out of the sport side of TKD.

In my optimism I hope that those who love the sport will find a path forward rather than out. If USAT hemorrages enough, perhaps USOC will hand the torch to AAU. I think sport TKD fills a niche and is here to stay. Hopefully my optimism isn't blind.

Carl

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was wondering who here believe the sport side of Tae Kwon Do is heading in the right direction? I mean right now if you are not in the right camps or in the right social group do your players really have a chance? What will happen when certain people get tired of being on the top, do we as a group have a pipeline of coaches and athletes to stay on top in the world?

Nobody ever tires of being on top, though there is a limit as to how long they can remain at the top in a given capacity. The training camp/social group issue is hardly limited to taekwondo. From what I gather, it is pretty much the norm in sports. For those who want taekwondo to be a sport, this is one of the things that inevitably goes with it.

When are we going to have a real grassroot program that will developed athletes from mid belt, not just 10-12 year old Black Belts, I know that is up to each instructor but if we do not do something to keep those training will we have enough twenty years from now? I know I am guessing and asking and nobody really knows and alot really do not care since TKD is more than a sport, but I am concern that certain groups and people are driving so many talented people out of the sport side of TKD.

To answer the question, no, sport taekwondo is not heading in the right direction.

The bolded part is really the problem. You have two separate structures and promotion paradigms existing at the same time and the sport being artificially grafted onto the 'art' so to speak.

This would not be a problem if the sport had any relation to the art, but at this point, it does not. By having forms as part of competition, it might seem that the two are connected, but this actually makes matters worse. It is like having NFL football and NFL Football Ballet. Or to put it a different way, there is a reason that figure skating and speed skating are separate sports.

Complete separation from the art is needed.

The use of belts is also another issue. Until the belt and what it represents is defined specifically for the sport and is no longer equated to the traditional usage of belts, the public at large will simply be confused, primarily at the school level.

I hate to say it (and this is not directed at you Terry), but this isn't rocket science. If you want your sport to be successful, don't saddle it with a confused set of events and a cumbersome ranking system. Age, gender, and weight should be the only qualifiers, and fight record should be the only ranking in the sport. In a sport, no other ranking counts.

Ditch the forms, breaking, and belts and establish local age appropriate leagues starting the kids off in the appropriate league when they are in the single digits and have age appropriate leagues for them to graduate to. Just like football and soccor. Involved the local boys and girls clubs.

Also, in most little league/kids league sports, many of the coaches and staff are parent volunteers, thus providing some pool of people who may potentially become referees or coaches.

From there, the most tallented individuals can then go to the necessary training camps (the training camp issue really isn't all that uncommon. If you want to go to the top levels, you pay the money and go to the top camps, just like in every other sport. I don't see why people complain about this).

I have said many times before on this board that adopting the fencing model would be much more effective than the cumbersome jumble of mismatched parts that sport taekwondo currently is made up of.

The major issue is that kids in this country do not see taekwondo as a sport. Neither do their parents. So kids are not enrolled in it for the same reasons that they are in football or other sports. Until taekwondo is perceived as a sport in the US and not as a martial art, you will not see a strong grass roots program. Most kids who take it up drop out after black belt and most parents use it for an afterschool activity. Nothing more. A strong grass roots program needs bodies. No bodies, no program except for the higher levels where the participants have greater investment. At mid-belt, the jury is out as to whether or not the kid will even stick with it to black.

Which is why the sport needs to either ditch the belts or radically alter how they are used (a sliding scale perhaps where your fight record determines your belt color and your belt color fluxuates according ly is one option).

It really isn't all that hard to see the changes that need to be made, but a lot of people have their egos invested in the current structure and will not be willing to change it.

Daniel

 

[rlp271]

I agree that a system of competition where belts had nothing to do with it would be best for Taekwondo as a sport in the United States. That's how boxing, wrestling, Sambo, and MMA all work. Boxing, wrestling, and MMA are all very popular, and Sambo is gaining popularity.

The problem you're running into is that Korea tracks people into Taekwondo that are good at it as children. If you excel at a young age, you're going to end up playing in middle school and high school. If you excel there, you will play in university, and if you do well there, you can start making national teams. They aren't going to change their rank system just for people in the western world. Why would they? There isn't a reason to. The coaches and players in Korea are top notch, they consistently win, and they don't need to change a single thing to make other countries more competitive. It may just be that sport Taekwondo in the US isn't moving in the right direction, but here in Korea, it seems to be doing just fine even if it is mostly a daycare center. It attracts a ton of kids, and they can pick and choose who they really focus on and send out for better coaching.

So from a western perspective, only for TKD in the US, yes, what you're talking about would work, but you're in a sport governed by a country 10,000 miles away. They don't see the same necessity for change you do, because it simply doesn't exist in this part of the world. I'm sure they can't help but look at the huge success Judo has had, and Judo hasn't had to change its rank structure or its curriculum. They still retain kata as one of the grading requirements for black belt, except for in one specific case, batsugun.

Under promotion by batsugun, you are promoted to your level of competition automatically after a shiai. There are rare cases of people going from newly registered member to black belt in a single day in Judo, because they were spectacular wrestlers who swept the black belt division.

Batsugun would change sport Taekwondo a lot. I could get behind using batsugun as a ranking tool in Taekwondo, because it's basically how I got my chodan (long, different story). I don't think they could get rid of everything else, not just for the sake of ruffling feathers, but when does it change from TKD to kickboxing with different rules?

 

[bribrius]

driving talented people out. I see how that could be a problem.

Not sure if separating the sport so much from the art is a good move. That would make the sport, at some point, probably nolonger taekwondo even if you call it that.

Taekwondo taught in all the little schools accross the country will not relate to the sport, as it will have its own following.

But now the following has nothing to do with where many of the future best talented will come from. And that is your local schools that are teaching the kids.

Perhaps one would be better to make them more interconnected, rather than further apart. Promote, or help the local schools.. The grass roots is already there. It is just not for the sport. And many instructors will not even acknowledge the sport to students if it becomes to be looked at as "not real taekwondo". Perhaps the best idea is to follow countrys that dont separate the sport from the art. They would probably have the better candidates and the grass roots program.

interesting problem.....

support your local taekwondo school!!!!

 

[dancingalone]

Not sure if separating the sport so much from the art is a good move. That would make the sport, at some point, probably nolonger taekwondo even if you call it that.

Several people here have expressed that exact opinion, that sport TKD is no longer TKD at all. They would prefer that a new name be used. I think 'Tae Do' has been flung around.

 

[Gorilla]

Sport TKD is not going in the right direction. I have many thoughts and not enough time right now will comment later.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For anyone looking for SD as well as sport, at some point they will wake up and realize training without punching to the head is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Not sure if separating the sport so much from the art is a good move. That would make the sport, at some point, probably nolonger taekwondo even if you call it that.

We've past that point.

It is still called TKD but bears no resemblence to it. Thus it should be separated.

Now, is it a cool sport? Absolutely! But one cannot look at fighting under the WTF rule set side by side with fighting as defined in the art of Kukki taekwondo and consider them the same.

I'm specifying WTF and KKW because from what I understand, the sportive element in the ITF is still very much taekwondo.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The problem you're running into is that Korea tracks people into Taekwondo that are good at it as children. If you excel at a young age, you're going to end up playing in middle school and high school. If you excel there, you will play in university, and if you do well there, you can start making national teams. They aren't going to change their rank system just for people in the western world. Why would they? There isn't a reason to.

This raises a different issue.

In the US, kids are tracked into different sports at an early age; football, basketball, wrestling, etc. Do well in grade school and middle school, you end up on the freshman team in high school. Do well there, you end up on JV. Do well there, you move up to Varsity, and from there, you play in college. And with major US sports, there are professional leagues above the college level for adult athletes to graduate to.

We don't have those mechanisms in place for taekwondo, partly because taekwondo is not our national sport and partly because it does not have a high enough profile in the US to support having such mechanisms.

I agree with you; there's no reason for Korea to change its way of doing things, but seeing as the WTF doesn't rank anybody or track ranks, I don't see that the US, which probably has a much greater quantity of taekwondoist (not percentage but total number) than Korea, rating people in a more westernized way as being a problem.

The idea of using belts to represent one's standing that I had mentioned, combined with age and weight groups, would keep the people competing in the correct divisions for their level of skill.

I don't imagine that the belt system is going anywhere, and as I don't compete in WTF tournaments anymore, I have no personal investment in the directions the WTF should take.

But given that the US has probably the largest quantity of taekwondoists of any country in the world (that is a guess, not an absolute fact, so if the US is not, I'd be curious as to what country does have the largest quantity), it would seem that the US should have some latitude in how competitions are bracketed within the US.

Once you get to the level of international competition, you are at a level where it is unlikely that anyone will be below black belt anyway (someone correct me if I am wrong on that point, please), and that is definitely the case in the Olympics.

Daniel

 

[Gorilla]

From there, the most tallented individuals can then go to the necessary training camps (the training camp issue really isn't all that uncommon. If you want to go to the top levels, you pay the money and go to the top camps, just like in every other sport. I don't see why people complain about this).

Daniel,

The reason that so many complain about this is the conflict of interest that the National Team Coaches have in the selection camp process. Juan Moreno has a very large organization in which he profits greatly by putting fighters on the National Team. He is one of the selectors and he picks people from his team (Peak). The Lopez's select her relatives and teammates same conflict. All the other selectors are affiliated with either Lopez or Peak. The most recent team was selected by fight off(Pan Am Team Trials) and the best fighters made the Team. This fight off demonstrated what is wrong with the selection camps those selected in camps in 2009/2010 got a free trip to the trials the rest had to finish in the top 2 at Nationals. Those who got there by selection camps were by and large defeated with a few exceptions and those who had to fight to get there had much more success. A few that were selected are still Juniors and they could not get out of the First/Second fight at the Junior Nationals. This is a strange juxtaposition selected for the SR National Team and a free ride to the OLYMPIC/PAN AM Team Trials and not good enough to make the JR National Team. The reason they made the SR National Team is because they were selected by the head of the organization in which they belong (Peak) Juan Moreno(National Team Coach). Our NGB/USAT needs to reevaluate and remove all the Crony-ism in order to get us on the right path.