Are so-called traditional martial arts dumbed down (even when practised properly in Asia)?

[Midnight-shadow]

yes and no.
sanchin (by any name) is a very popular form from the Fujian provence of China. there are multiple versions of it all different but all the same at the same time. white crane: Bai He Quan is only one style that uses this form. there are many many others. it is well documented that the Okinawan form sanchin: Goju- ryu , Uechi -ryu and Ryuei- ryu all share this form (as well as another from called Seisan) and is known to be passed down from Fujian styles. which styles? we dont actually know. there were many lineages of styles that did not have names. Bai He Quan was A style that was well known. often if someone was asked what style did they do, rather then have to explain it was a no name style they would rattle off the name of a well known style. there was a Tea merchant named Gokenki who was friends with Chogen Miyagi (creator of todays Goju) and Kanbun Uechi (founder of uechi ryu) who was a white crane stylist. some speculate the crane features of these styles come from him. my guess is that this is not the case. All three founders of these styles traveled to China and studied there and this is where sanchin by any name comes from.
beyond these three men and their respective styles is where the white crane influence ends. these three styles are loosely knows as Naha Te. but there was also Shuri Te and Tomari Te styles of karate neither of which have any relationship to any known Chinese styles, especially white crane. as a note modern Shotokan is based on Itosu's Shuri Te. most styles of Okinawan karate do not have a link to white crane kung fu. the Shuri and Tomari Te styles are much older than the Naha Te styles. the Shuri styles while probably did originate from China had a long time to develop and were used by the Pechin aristocratic class who would have regular official business with China. There were also Chinese who settled in Okinawa and it is thought some arts where brought in that way as well.

So, do you think it is more likely that Sanchin was just a single form that was taken from Fujian and incorporated into already established Karate styles? I guess it does make sense now that I think about it more.

 

[hoshin1600]

So, do you think it is more likely that Sanchin was just a single form that was taken from Fujian and incorporated into already established Karate styles? I guess it does make sense now that I think about it more.

not at all.
we are only talking about 3 people here. we know that Kanbun Uechi went to China and trained in a style in Fuzhou, Fujian province in 1897. he trained for 10 years under Shu Shi Wa and attained a teaching licence from his instructor. he then proceeded to teach in China before leaving and relocating in Wakiyama Japan around 1924.

Chojun Miyagi studied under Kanryo Higaonna. Higaonna went to Fuzhou, Fujian province in 1870. and was there for 10 years training under Ryu Ru Ko.

it is said that Norisato Nakaima also went to Fuzhou and trained with Ryu Ru Ko and returned to Okinawa in 1875 and founded Ryuei Ryu.

all of these men studied a decent about of time and brought back multiple forms not just sanchin.
the questions remains did they study only one system or many? it has been said that Higaonna had trained in Lohan Quan on Okinawa from a Chinese named Aragaki before he even went to China.
Kanbun Uechi's teacher was said to know multiple styles.
the other issue is that while all three karate styles are similar, they have Chinese aspects but do not match any known Chinese style exactly. they are more similar to each other than they are similar to a Chinese style.
we also know despite a lot of effort though multiple generations we cannot find any evidence of the history and all attempts to verify these Chinese men have eluded us so far.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

we also know despite a lot of effort though multiple generations we cannot find any evidence of the history and all attempts to verify these Chinese men have eluded us so far.

That's not really surprising, given how much the Chinese love destroying their own culture throughout history.

 

[MA_Student]

Maybe but really does it matter?

 

[donald1]

Maybe not but it's still interesting to learn none the less