Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[Steve]

But then that should be what's used to illustrate the point. When you can easily find a picture of BJJ competitors and BJJ hobbyists (or TKD or kickboxing), there's no reason to complicate the point by adding in cross-style to the picture.

I don't know about should. I hate that word, personally.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't know about should. I hate that word, personally.

Well the should there is in reference to illustrating the point. If you are going to illustrate a point, there are certain things that are objectively better to do that, and therefore should be done when possible. One example (and this example) is limiting variables. If he just wanted to show a picture to compare, there's no need for any sort of should. But if he wishes to make a valid point, to ensure that he does so he should be making it clear and limiting the variables.

The same way that, if you want to learn how to swim, you should get into the water. Or if you want to befriend someone, you should make some sort of contact with that person.

 

[Steve]

Well the should there is in reference to illustrating the point. If you are going to illustrate a point, there are certain things that are objectively better to do that, and therefore should be done when possible. One example (and this example) is limiting variables. If he just wanted to show a picture to compare, there's no need for any sort of should. But if he wishes to make a valid point, to ensure that he does so he should be making it clear and limiting the variables.

The same way that, if you want to learn how to swim, you should get into the water. Or if you want to befriend someone, you should make some sort of contact with that person.

I get it.. don't get me wrong. I just don't care for the word "should." I understand your point though. It's hard to learn to swim without water just as it's hard to learn self defense without fighting. And yet, here we are.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't know about should. I hate that word, personally.

Interesting; can you elaborate on 'should'? I agree that it often is a cop out word. "I should loose weight." etc...

 

[punisher73]

Here is the thing that seems to be overlooked in many discussions in TMA versus combat sports and that is the training methods in the vast majority of TMA schools. We can all point to TMA's that can and do work well. We can all point to TMA schools that train hard and realistic.

BUT, if we are talking in generalizations, combat sports and its methods will produce a better fighter. Why? Because of the nature of it. There is so much mental toughness that goes in to being a good fighter. We can all think about people (even in combat sports) that looked great on the pads or shadow boxing and had the physical makings of a good fighter, but hit them once and they crumbled. It weeds out the weak, they either get mentally tougher or they quit.

There are a lot of TMA schools that guarantee a blackbelt if you keep showing up. A person can obtain a blackbelt without ever having to really challenge themselves, there really isn't a process of weeding out the weak like there is in combat sports gyms.

I know I have been guilty of this when discussing this topic. I make the assumption of properly taught and applied TMA's versus combat sports and approach it from that aspect, which I don't agree that combat sports always produces superior fighters.

On the other hand, I have been to a BJJ school that no one competed (I think at the time one person did a couple tournaments) and it was only taught from the knees (no standup/takedown defense, no grip fighting, no takedowns, no breakfall skills). How would they fair against a TMA that trained realistically and with hard contact? BUT, that would be an exception and not the norm.

I think that realistic TMA schools are usually the exception and not the norm. So, in general, I think combat sports do produce a better fighter.

 

[drop bear]

Here is the thing that seems to be overlooked in many discussions in TMA versus combat sports and that is the training methods in the vast majority of TMA schools. We can all point to TMA's that can and do work well. We can all point to TMA schools that train hard and realistic.

BUT, if we are talking in generalizations, combat sports and its methods will produce a better fighter. Why? Because of the nature of it. There is so much mental toughness that goes in to being a good fighter. We can all think about people (even in combat sports) that looked great on the pads or shadow boxing and had the physical makings of a good fighter, but hit them once and they crumbled. It weeds out the weak, they either get mentally tougher or they quit.

There are a lot of TMA schools that guarantee a blackbelt if you keep showing up. A person can obtain a blackbelt without ever having to really challenge themselves, there really isn't a process of weeding out the weak like there is in combat sports gyms.

I know I have been guilty of this when discussing this topic. I make the assumption of properly taught and applied TMA's versus combat sports and approach it from that aspect, which I don't agree that combat sports always produces superior fighters.

On the other hand, I have been to a BJJ school that no one competed (I think at the time one person did a couple tournaments) and it was only taught from the knees (no standup/takedown defense, no grip fighting, no takedowns, no breakfall skills). How would they fair against a TMA that trained realistically and with hard contact? BUT, that would be an exception and not the norm.

I think that realistic TMA schools are usually the exception and not the norm. So, in general, I think combat sports do produce a better fighter.

Even the process i think is better.

So as an example if someone trained for a grading in the same way they did a 12 week fight camp. They would come out after that grading a ton better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Even the process i think is better.

So as an example if someone trained for a grading in the same way they did a 12 week fight camp. They would come out after that grading a ton better.

Good point. I generally didn't do that, but I was generally over-trained (from a fitness perspective) for the demands of the grading. Maybe the point should be that grading should be highly demanding, from a fitness perspective.

I'm not sure where that leaves most hobbyists, who want to get as much as they can in a few hours a week (which precludes the fight camp approach). In a style like BJJ where curriculum isn't tied to rank, it's probably not an issue once people get over the ego bruising of being stuck at a lower belt.

 

[drop bear]

Good point. I generally didn't do that, but I was generally over-trained (from a fitness perspective) for the demands of the grading. Maybe the point should be that grading should be highly demanding, from a fitness perspective.

I'm not sure where that leaves most hobbyists, who want to get as much as they can in a few hours a week (which precludes the fight camp approach). In a style like BJJ where curriculum isn't tied to rank, it's probably not an issue once people get over the ego bruising of being stuck at a lower belt.

Most hobbyists could fight camp. It would just be hard.

 

[dunc]

I see a lot of people really increasing their training amount and intensity in the lead up to a competition, but quite often injuring themselves as a result. Over time this takes its toll and I know many high level competitors getting into their 30s with a lot of pretty deliberating injuries

So as a middle aged hobbyist I take a different approach where I train 6-7 times a week, sometimes going light and focusing on technique, sometimes pushing myself hard, but keeping that consistent pace over the years

I've found that my body is in a much better place as a result

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Most hobbyists could fight camp. It would just be hard.

They could, but most wouldn't. It's just not something they allocate that much time to. The ones who stick around after a few years, most of those would. So doing that somewhere near BB in most arts (which is usually something in the 2-10 year range) would work. But then it's a single time, and doesn't have the same effect as doing that once or twice a year.

And I don't think most programs, being run by folks who only do this part-time, don't really have capacity to offer that kind of time intensity to a larger group.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see a lot of people really increasing their training amount and intensity in the lead up to a competition, but quite often injuring themselves as a result. Over time this takes its toll and I know many high level competitors getting into their 30s with a lot of pretty deliberating injuries

So as a middle aged hobbyist I take a different approach where I train 6-7 times a week, sometimes going light and focusing on technique, sometimes pushing myself hard, but keeping that consistent pace over the years

I've found that my body is in a much better place as a result

If you can get in enough to do that, that works well. In my late 20's and early 30's, it wasn't unusual for me to make it to 10 classes in a week, and then teach a couple of kids' classses. That was my fitness. We'd do some basic exercises to start the class (and I'd do them for every class) and some of those classes I'd get to work out really hard. I was definitely in "fighting shape" back then. But most of the folks I trained with had kids and families and jobs where they worked 50 hours, so they made it in 2-3 classes a week (some fewer, like the pilots). Those folks did tend to take a bit of a "fight camp" approach to their brown and black belt tests, but that was a very small group.

 

[punisher73]

Even the process i think is better.

So as an example if someone trained for a grading in the same way they did a 12 week fight camp. They would come out after that grading a ton better.

I agree, that goes back to what I said about TMA's being taught and trained properly. That is how TMA's used to be originally trained and trained when it first came to this country. It was very heavily focused on being very in shape and physical fitness in addition to the hard martial training.

If you look at the "72 Consumate Arts of Shaolin", many of the exercises correspond to modern weightlifts like the deadlift, squad, overhead press etc. The other exercises are for developing body weapons.

Much of this hard training has been dropped in most TMA schools.

 

[dvcochran]

They could, but most wouldn't. It's just not something they allocate that much time to. The ones who stick around after a few years, most of those would. So doing that somewhere near BB in most arts (which is usually something in the 2-10 year range) would work. But then it's a single time, and doesn't have the same effect as doing that once or twice a year.

And I don't think most programs, being run by folks who only do this part-time, don't really have capacity to offer that kind of time intensity to a larger group.

Your above post says much of what I was thinking. It speaks to the broader base of practitioners and offerings.
I would need the strict definition of a fight camp but we have people who get ready for regional/national tournaments every year. We have 2 6-week primer courses every year. One to two hours after a regular class, which is required, so a total of 3 1/2 - 4 hours/day 5 days/week. Some conditioning but mostly sparring technique and strategy, all done during live sparring. There is a peak in the middle weeks of straight sparring for endurance; longer rounds and heavily padded.
Maybe a new definition for martial need to be created. We have traditional and sport but there are more and more traditional schools that cross over into sport. I have not head of a specific name for these. Hybrid MA?

Like it or not the definition of Martial Arts is very, very wide spread. Even breaking it down into component parts gets involved and cumbersome. MMA? Just what falls under that umbrella? Same for TMA. And there are 'styles' that do not fit under either banner.

So, to the OP; sure competitive sport MA are superior at their given competition and Yes, that can/will a have positive effect for self defense. But it has a lot of gaps that seem to be overlooked. Like longevity, aggression control, variety, inclusivity, on and on. I doubt this is where the OP was going but they should not be overlooked.

You cannot hide the fact that there are not many 40-50 year old competitive sport people still active. Compare that in contrast to the broad TMA age range and it explains a lot.
A high percentage of our late teens to 30's age range get into the sport side, mostly locally but some go farther. It is an option we always have available.

Fun fact; one of our BB's moved to the Fresno area many years ago. At 69 she competed at the Pan American level this year. Yes, it was in sparring. No, there were no submission moves but she is one gritty old bird

 

[Hanzou]

I agree, that goes back to what I said about TMA's being taught and trained properly. That is how TMA's used to be originally trained and trained when it first came to this country. It was very heavily focused on being very in shape and physical fitness in addition to the hard martial training.

If you look at the "72 Consumate Arts of Shaolin", many of the exercises correspond to modern weightlifts like the deadlift, squad, overhead press etc. The other exercises are for developing body weapons.

Much of this hard training has been dropped in most TMA schools.

At the end of the day, people are running a business, and unfortunately the kiddies today can't be worked too hard or mommy and daddy will take their money elsewhere.

 

[dvcochran]

At the end of the day, people are running a business, and unfortunately the kiddies today can't be worked too hard or mommy and daddy will take their money elsewhere.

We all get it. You think you style/system is far superior to anything else. Many of us have been there. You have beat your horse to death touting it however. Very tiring.

To add to my previous post regarding longevity in TMA, how many 4-6 year old's do you have in your MMA program? A dynamic you cannot enter in to.
Yes, some, not all TMA schools survive financially on their younger population. Implying that this is all a school has or has to offer is misleading.
Historically, we average 64% adults (16 and older). This year has been quite different. Doesn't look like we will even break even this year. Through May we were still running more adults than kids. Then the tide dramatically changed. I fully believe a lot of the at home parents were looking for an outlet. The numbers have gradually tilted back to normal.

 

[Hanzou]

We all get it. You think you style/system is far superior to anything else. Many of us have been there. You have beat your horse to death touting it however. Very tiring.

To add to my previous post regarding longevity in TMA, how many 4-6 year old's do you have in your MMA program? A dynamic you cannot enter in to.
Yes, some, not all TMA schools survive financially on their younger population. Implying that this is all a school has or has to offer is misleading.
Historically, we average 64% adults (16 and older). This year has been quite different. Doesn't look like we will even break even this year. Through May we were still running more adults than kids. Then the tide dramatically changed. I fully believe a lot of the at home parents were looking for an outlet. The numbers have gradually tilted back to normal.

Actually, the watering down element Punisher is talking about effects BJJ as well. I was talking about ALL martial arts in that posts, not just TMAs.

Also plenty of BJJ schools have kid/children classes. My old gym's kid class was actually very well attended and full of kids. That requires owners of those schools to reduce the level of training intensity in order to retain those students. If Mikey or Susie come home crying from BJJ practice, that's money that the school potentially loses.

 

[Steve]

Actually, the watering down element Punisher is talking about effects BJJ as well. I was talking about ALL martial arts in that posts, not just TMAs.

Also plenty of BJJ schools have kid/children classes. My old gym's kid class was actually very well attended and full of kids. That requires owners of those schools to reduce the level of training intensity in order to retain those students. If Mikey or Susie come home crying from BJJ practice, that's money that the school potentially loses.

Kids pay the bills, I hear. And truly, most of the kids who train are having a good time doing something physically strenuous and mentally challenging. A very small percentage will stick with it for long enough to get their blue belt and join the adult classes. But by the time they do, they are well prepared for it.

I think the same is true for all competitive martial artists. Look at Judo or TKD. I mean, the kids in a TKD class where they really emphasize competition are pretty fierce, and they're good at what they're being taught to do. Same with XMA kids. Folks get caught up in whether it's practical for street fighting. I don't really know or care about that one way or the other. If we're just answering the question, are competitive sport martial artists superior, then the answer is certainly yes. Because at every level, and at every age bracket, you can see folks being taught do things, and then doing that thing based on a clear and objective standard.

The alternative is the echo chamber that I and others have mentioned. Punisher mentions a BJJ school that doesn't compete, among other red flags. The point being that a lack of competition immediately results in a loss of reliable skill development. He didn't mention the instructor's qualification. I don't know why, but it didn't seem odd to me, because frankly, the instructor's skill level is irrelevant to the outcome. Competition is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually, the watering down element Punisher is talking about effects BJJ as well. I was talking about ALL martial arts in that posts, not just TMAs.

Also plenty of BJJ schools have kid/children classes. My old gym's kid class was actually very well attended and full of kids. That requires owners of those schools to reduce the level of training intensity in order to retain those students. If Mikey or Susie come home crying from BJJ practice, that's money that the school potentially loses.

I've only seen kids classes in a couple of BJJ places, though I think all the BJJ places I visited (not a huge number) had kids classes. If nothing else, they seemed more physically demanding than most of the kids' classes I'd seen and more focused on application. Like with other styles, the quality of the kids' classes seems to depend almost entirely upon how good the instructor is with kids (both relating to them and getting them to cooperate).

 

[Buka]

The advantage of competition is fighting against very real resistance. And even more resistance as the level of competition increases.

And most enlightening, is resistance against people you've never seen before. Really can't get that in your own club. At least not as much.

 

[drop bear]

They could, but most wouldn't. It's just not something they allocate that much time to. The ones who stick around after a few years, most of those would. So doing that somewhere near BB in most arts (which is usually something in the 2-10 year range) would work. But then it's a single time, and doesn't have the same effect as doing that once or twice a year.

And I don't think most programs, being run by folks who only do this part-time, don't really have capacity to offer that kind of time intensity to a larger group.

Which is fine. But then the bar is lowered.

If the question is, are competitive martial artists better? And they are fundamentally training harder. Because other martial artists don't want to.

Seem a pretty simple answer.