Are competitive Sport Martial Artists superior?

[EdwardA]

I don't know guys. This conversation seems to always go back to the ring. A sport has rules....lots of them.

Combat has no rules. I can't see them as very relative. All those rules take away, easily half of what I'm good at.

I know that these guys are tough and have skill, but it's not like having a couple guys with lock-blades in front of you, and a guy sneaking up behind you...trying to rap a belt buckle around your head. They were seasoned gang-bangers. I did well in that situation, but wouldn't get very far in MMA.

 

[EdwardA]

Most of what I trained at, breaks all sporting rules.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Most of what I trained at, breaks all sporting rules.

Like what?

 

[EdwardA]

Like what?

Oh like sending a crushing blow to the throat, first punch... breaking a knee on the way in... putting a full power elbow at the bottom of the ear to break their neck...more? Breaking an elbow with a kick... stomping a knee as they go down. Kicking under the shoulder to dislocate it. I weigh 140 and most of my fights have been with guys 2-4 inces taller and 180-200 lbs. Or guys with knives. I had to train that way. I've even clinbed right up big guys and put the ball of my foot right into their throat. Does that break the rules?

 

[KOKarate]

Oh like sending a crushing blow to the throat, first punch... breaking a knee on the way in... putting a full power elbow at the bottom of the ear to break their neck...more? Breaking an elbow with a kick... stomping a knee as they go down. Kicking under the shoulder to dislocate it. I weigh 140 and most of my fights have been with guys 2-4 inces taller and 180-200 lbs. Or guys with knives. I had to train that way.

Sounds like a segal movie

 

[EdwardA]

Sounds like a segal movie

....don't know what that means, but I was trained to be highly destructive from the beginning. I've tried not to be, but you get that way fast when somebody's trying to put a butcher knife in you....or pulls a pistol out of their belt. Admittedly I've been fortunate. The 4 times I've had pistols pulled on me, they were no more than 3 to 4 feet from me.

Oh you mean S.Segal. Never trained Akido, but looked at some of their techniques. I combined WC, Kenpo, JKDs intercepting fist and Taiji.... mostly.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Oh like sending a crushing blow to the throat, first punch... breaking a knee on the way in... putting a full power elbow at the bottom of the ear to break their neck...more? Breaking an elbow with a kick... stomping a knee as they go down. Kicking under the shoulder to dislocate it. I weigh 140 and most of my fights have been with guys 2-4 inces taller and 180-200 lbs. Or guys with knives. I had to train that way. I've even clinbed right up big guys and put the ball of my foot right into their throat. Does that break the rules?

Are those things you train?

So with sending a crushing blow to the throat...how do you know that would work? Is that something you've done against pressure with people actively not wanting their throat crushed? And if you train to punch a guys nose and use that in competition, do you think it would take a lot of effort changing it to the throat?

With braking a knee on the way in...technically I guess that might be illegal in MMA...but the move for it (I'm assuming a front low kick with your foot slightly to an outside angle as that's what I've learned) is seen in MMA. And it doesn't always work like that. But there's nothing illegal about that move. Or whichever one you have to destroy the knee.

The full power elbow at the bottom of the ear I believe is not illegal as well.

How do you break an elbow with a kick? Based on the styles I've trained, an elbow is a move you do after you've already transitioned to being in close. And not enough time for a kick to interfere...a punch or a backup-push away possibly, but not a kick. The only way I could see that being effective is if the person charges in with an elbow which wouldn't really make sense. If I'm missing something I would really appreciate either an explanation via text or a video explaining it.

Stomping a knee while they're going down-Yeah I think that's illegal in most bouts. And yeah I agree that's a flaw in MMA/kickboxing. Personally I wouldn't do that while they're going down-the better option in a self defense situation would be once I have them going down either dealing with the next person or running away, rather than staying around to deal more damage. It makes my case worse in a legal situation, and if I miss it gives them/their friends more time to recover and/or attack me.

Regarding kicking under the shoulder to dislocate it-does that work? I've never heard of that, but it sounds awesome! My most deadly shoulder height-kick would be kicking the bicep to essentially charlie horse them so they can't punch. How do you dislocate their shoulder with a kick? Does it rely on you kicking them while they're punching, or is it something you're able to do while they have their guard? It would be super helpful if you could show me how, I'd love to know.

Regarding the weight. I generally weigh less than you, and I'm 5'7 so most people are taller than me. Knives are also my main focus the last 3ish years. But I don't believe throwing a front ball kick or a side kick with the ball of your foot on someone's throat breaks the rules for most MMA bouts. It's just something that's tough to do when the person knows how to fight.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know guys. This conversation seems to always go back to the ring. A sport has rules....lots of them.

Combat has no rules. I can't see them as very relative. All those rules take away, easily half of what I'm good at.

I know that these guys are tough and have skill, but it's not like having a couple guys with lock-blades in front of you, and a guy sneaking up behind you...trying to rap a belt buckle around your head. They were seasoned gang-bangers. I did well in that situation, but wouldn't get very far in MMA.

Why wouldn't you get far in MMA?

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know guys. This conversation seems to always go back to the ring. A sport has rules....lots of them.

Combat has no rules. I can't see them as very relative. All those rules take away, easily half of what I'm good at.

I know that these guys are tough and have skill, but it's not like having a couple guys with lock-blades in front of you, and a guy sneaking up behind you...trying to rap a belt buckle around your head. They were seasoned gang-bangers. I did well in that situation, but wouldn't get very far in MMA.

They did take the rules away, in the original UFC the only rules were no eye gouging or biting.

We still got pretty much the same result.

Yes, we realize that there are tons of variables that can take place on "the street", but the simple reality is if exponents from your system have problems taking down one guy, why should we believe that those same exponents can take down multiple opponents, or some psycho wielding a knife?

Why is MMA and Bjj exploding around the world while traditional styles are starting to wither and die off? Simple, because they keep winning, and people like winners, and they like results. We're almost 30 years into this and we're getting the same results over and over again, so for the majority of people, the verdict has already been reached. People just don't buy the belief that there's some ancient grandmaster hiding in a temple anymore. Now people rightly say if your art is so amazing, show it to us in a public venue. When no one shows, the reputation of the arts outside of the MMA/BJJ sphere simply get worse and worse.

 

[EdwardA]

I didn't say I haven't fought on the ground, I said I'd prefer not to. Have any of you guys had a fight on a cement sidewalk, in the roadway or parking lot? Rolling around on the pavement is not preferred by by anybody. Is it? And if you are facing 2-3 guys with weapons it's really a bad place to be.

As far as rules go, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing to many people come out of the ring maimed for life. A a few by accident, but not on purpose. That is an element of the street. Dier concequences. Ask a Seal or Ranger if they want to use their ground game. Yeah, they can, but they'll tell you they intend not to.

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't say I haven't fought on the ground, I said I'd prefer not to. Have any of you guys had a fight on a cement sidewalk, in the roadway or parking lot? Rolling around on the pavement is not preferred by by anybody. Is it? And if you are facing 2-3 guys with weapons it's really a bad place to be.

I have, and it isn't about preference, it's about getting out of an inferior position and into a superior position. Yes, facing 2-3 guys sucks, now imagine facing 2-3 guys on the bottom of someone's mount with them raining punches down on your head. The misconception is that people who know how to fight on the ground would pull guard and roll around on their backs. That isn't the case. If you look at any street fight involving a trained grappler, they secure the dominant position (typically the mount) and fight from that position.

Would I want to be rolling around on the concrete with some sociopath? No. Would I want to be able to escape some sociopath trying to dominate me on the ground? Yes. Would I want to be able to control the sociopath so that the sociopath can't do harm to me? Yes.

As far as rules go, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not seeing to many people come out of the ring maimed for life. A a few by accident, but not on purpose. That is an element of the street. Dier concequences. Ask a Seal or Ranger if they want to use their ground game. Yeah, they can, but they'll tell you they intend not to.

A seal or ranger still know the ground game because they are trained in the ground game. And those that leave the service still pursue learning Bjj and other grappling arts for their own personal protection. That should tell you something.

 

[EdwardA]

I have, and it isn't about preference, it's about getting out of an inferior position and into a superior position. Yes, facing 2-3 guys sucks, now imagine facing 2-3 guys on the bottom of someone's mount with them raining punches down on your head. The misconception is that people who know how to fight on the ground would pull guard and roll around on their backs. That isn't the case. If you look at any street fight involving a trained grappler, they secure the dominant position (typically the mount) and fight from that position.

Would I want to be rolling around on the concrete with some sociopath? No. Would I want to be able to escape some sociopath trying to dominate me on the ground? Yes. Would I want to be able to control the sociopath so that the sociopath can't do harm to me? Yes.



A seal or ranger still know the ground game because they are trained in the ground game. And those that leave the service still pursue learning Bjj and other grappling arts for their own personal protection. That should tell you something.

I think you miss my point...go downtown or into the wrong neighborhood, and get into it with 2-3 bangers. If you get tied up with one of them for 1 second or so, likely you'll get stuck in the back. High movement is critical. They actually practice and formulate this as a team. It's how they train as a group tactic. No accident....and they are not the only ones that train that way. What you have to do is make contact with one and move him into the others in the first 2 seconds or your screwed. They come at you in a triangle formation and one might hold back a couple seconds so you don't see him coming in from behind. Even if you only see one, the other two are near by. You have to have high movement.

This is not rare. It happens in cities all over, every day. I've seen if several times and had to deal with it twice.

 

[Hanzou]

I think you miss my point...go downtown or into the wrong neighborhood, and get into it with 2-3 bangers. If you get tied up with one of them for 1 second or so, likely you'll get stuck in the back. High movement is critical. They actually practice and formulate this as a team. It's how they train as a group tactic. No accident....and they are not the only ones that train that way.

Two things;

1.You’d be an idiot for doing something like that. That isn’t a self defense scenario, that’s a moron with a death wish.

2. I don’t care what martial art you practice, you’re likely to wind up on the losing end of that situation (possibly dead). So, I think it’s rather dumb to use that as some sort of counter to what I said.

What you have to do is make contact with one and move him into the others in the first 2 seconds or your screwed. They come at you in a triangle formation and one might hold back a couple seconds so you don't see him coming in from behind. Even if you only see one, the other two are near by. You have to have high movement.

This is not rare. It happens in cities all over, every day. I've seen if several times and had to deal with it twice.

Ive lived in the largest cities in the world and that has never happened to me, or anyone I know. Maybe the best self defense isn’t pretending to be Batman and going into places looking for trouble?

 

[Graywalker]

This is a silly question, in sports yes, in any other scenerio...it's a crap shoot.

 

[Steve]

This is a silly question, in sports yes, in any other scenerio...it's a crap shoot.

Well, you’re half right.

 

[Hanzou]

This is a silly question, in sports yes, in any other scenerio...it's a crap shoot.

Except....

Which group do you think will be better able to handle themselves if something were to go down?

 

[Graywalker]

Except....

Which group do you think will be better able to handle themselves if something were to go down?

The person who has actually fought outside of sports.

 

[dvcochran]

Except....

Which group do you think will be better able to handle themselves if something were to go down?

Not entirely sure of your point. Each have their merits and in this context a picture is work a 1,000 words. That said, it is just a couple of pictures. Nothing to verify the substance behind them.
I get it. The first picture does look rather...sad in the MA context. The second picture looks totally staged and A-type centric. I would have definitely been in the latter picture in my 20's but, so what?
I think you are leaning really had on the A-type fraternity. And this comes from an alumni. What really matters is what you do when it is just a picture of yourself.

 

[Hanzou]

The person who has actually fought outside of sports.

Not really, since the situation of fighting are going to be different each time. I may have experience fighting a fat guy trying to smash my head in with a hammer, but that doesn't mean that I have experience dealing with a muscle head punching me in the face. The true question is which gives you a better base to deal with a situation, and that's going to be a martial art where you're dealing with pressure. Competitive arts give you that pressure.

 

[Hanzou]

Not entirely sure of your point. Each have their merits and in this context a picture is work a 1,000 words. That said, it is just a couple of pictures. Nothing to verify the substance behind them.
I get it. The first picture does look rather...sad in the MA context. The second picture looks totally staged and A-type centric. I would have definitely been in the latter picture in my 20's but, so what?
I think you are leaning really had on the A-type fraternity. And this comes from an alumni. What really matters is what you do when it is just a picture of yourself.

To be fair, the majority of people in the bottom pic aren't in their 20s. The majority of them are in their 30s and 40s.