Any good advice to a non ground fighter??

[Paul_D]

At her best she still got tapped by male purple belts, and she was the world's highest level black belt at one point in time.

I am not sure how this is relevant to women being attacked by men? Do many rapists train BJJ to purple belt in order to be able to rape women who may be trained to fight on the ground?

If you want practical advice ......then get a concealable weapon and learn how to use it.

Not everyone lives in a country where the carrying of concealed weapons is legal. It is therefore not "practical" advice, instead it is illegal, dangerous,and highly irresponsible advice. By all means present it as your "opinion", which is what it is, but please don't present it is "practical".

 

[Skullpunch]

Hey Skullpunch, cool name. I like this thread because everyone makes good points. There's always someone bigger, faster, stronger, leaner and meaner. That being said, I'd no doubt feel the most reassured if I could send my girls to the high school with concealed weapons, but we know how that would turn out. Since I can't do that, all I can give them is some guidance, caution them about situational awareness, give them some techniques that may get them out of a life threatening jam, Which is better than saying; "well, if some stronger guy gets them in a full mount, there's nothing they can do anyway, so we better not waste our time.....". I want them to have a fighting chance, with emphasis on the fighting. I've never seen a full mount that occurs in one second or less. There's a time window, as for myself if someone is within seconds of having me in a full mount and I have my arms around their waist and my head between their navel and their nips, and it's either chew my way to their back bone or die, guess what I'm going to do....if I do die, then a whole bunch of their skin is going to have my salivary DNA all over it when they have to go to the hospital. Just sayin'.

Just to clarify, I am not by any means denouncing hand to hand self defense training for women - or anyone for that matter. I think it's awesome and a highly valuable skill to have. But there's an element of realism that needs to be injected into these discussions that a lot of people aren't comfortable with. This doesn't mean you just accept that there is nothing you can do against a grappler, but keep your expectations realistic. Train as much as you can and be prepared to do what you can but understand that brute strength and various forms of wrestling/grappling have been two of the most dominant forces in hand to hand combat since the beginning of humanity. How could that be if either one of them were so insanely easy to overcome that all you need is an escape someone told you about on the internet that you drill from time to time and a thought to yourself that you can just bite your way out of whatever?

As for your daughters, and this goes for pretty much anyone who's in a situation where weapons are not allowed, the next best thing (or perhaps the best thing up there with having a weapon) is strength in numbers. A lone woman walking home alone at night - or hanging out by herself after class or wherever - appears to be an easy target. A group of 4 or 5 (or more), where 2 (or more) of them know how to handle themselves and carry themselves accordingly, is far less likely to even be looked at with predatory eyes. During my high school years I was a loner who trained a lot and thought I was a badass, and maybe compared to a lone untrained teenager I was, but compared to a group I was weak as fukk even if I was delusional enough to tell myself otherwise at the time.

I am not sure how this is relevant to women being attacked by men? Do many rapists train BJJ to purple belt in order to be able to rape women who may be trained to fight on the ground?

No but most women also aren't Hilary Williams. The difference between an average purple belt and a world champion black belt is like the difference between an average 3 stripe white belt and an average black belt. The relevance is by spelling out just how massive of a technical advantage a woman - on average - is going to need to overcome a male attacker with her bare hands. This is underestimated by many people in these discussions because it's a reality that many people are not comfortable with accepting.

On your point about weapons, obviously I wouldn't suggest this to someone who lives in a country where it's going to get them beheaded or imprisoned lmao. Regarding this, refer to my discussion with old judoka.

 

[Skullpunch]

Edit: Double Post

 

[Paul_D]

No but most women also aren't Hilary Williams. The difference between an average purple belt and a world champion black belt is like the difference between an average 3 stripe white belt and an average black belt. The relevance is by spelling out just how massive of a technical advantage a woman - on average - is going to need to overcome a male attacker with her bare hands.

I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.

You state women, on average, need a massive technical advantage to fight off a male attacker. Yet point out that Hillary Williams, who is a World Champion Black Belt, and has a huge technical advantage over male purple belts, doesn't have enough skill to fight them off.

 

[Old Judoka]

Just to clarify, I am not by any means denouncing hand to hand self defense training for women - or anyone for that matter. I think it's awesome and a highly valuable skill to have. But there's an element of realism that needs to be injected into these discussions that a lot of people aren't comfortable with. This doesn't mean you just accept that there is nothing you can do against a grappler, but keep your expectations realistic. Train as much as you can and be prepared to do what you can but understand that brute strength and various forms of wrestling/grappling have been two of the most dominant forces in hand to hand combat since the beginning of humanity. How could that be if either one of them were so insanely easy to overcome that all you need is an escape someone told you about on the internet that you drill from time to time and a thought to yourself that you can just bite your way out of whatever?

As for your daughters, and this goes for pretty much anyone who's in a situation where weapons are not allowed, the next best thing (or perhaps the best thing up there with having a weapon) is strength in numbers. A lone woman walking home alone at night - or hanging out by herself after class or wherever - appears to be an easy target. A group of 4 or 5 (or more), where 2 (or more) of them know how to handle themselves and carry themselves accordingly, is far less likely to even be looked at with predatory eyes. During my high school years I was a loner who trained a lot and thought I was a badass, and maybe compared to a lone untrained teenager I was, but compared to a group I was weak as fukk even if I was delusional enough to tell myself otherwise at the time.



No but most women also aren't Hilary Williams. The difference between an average purple belt and a world champion black belt is like the difference between an average 3 stripe white belt and an average black belt. The relevance is by spelling out just how massive of a technical advantage a woman - on average - is going to need to overcome a male attacker with her bare hands. This is underestimated by many people in these discussions because it's a reality that many people are not comfortable with accepting.

On your point about weapons, obviously I wouldn't suggest this to someone who lives in a country where it's going to get them beheaded or imprisoned lmao. Regarding this, refer to my discussion with old judoka.

I like this discussion, because this definitely needs addressed. Realistically, my daughters are only 15 months apart in age, they both are in the same extra curricular activities, so they are together nearly all the time. If I can get them to some decent competency, I believe I won't have to be quite so concerned as I am at this point. They are going to get plenty of practice throwing my big old a$$ around, learn a few submissions, a few chokes, and hopefully a bit of atemi, or some kind of striking. Will they be like Ronda Rousey during her Olympic heyday or Tammy Hostetler from back in my day? No, but they won't be sitting ducks either.

 

[Skullpunch]

I am not sure I am understanding you correctly.

You state women, on average, need a massive technical advantage to fight off a male attacker. Yet point out that Hillary Williams, who is a World Champion Black Belt, and has a huge technical advantage over male purple belts, doesn't have enough skill to fight them off.

When her technical advantage > a male's strength advantage, she has a >50% chance of winning. When her technical advantage < a male's strength advantage, she has a <50% chance of winning. Make sense?

 

[Paul_D]

When her technical advantage > a male's strength advantage, she has a >50% chance of winning. When her technical advantage < a male's strength advantage, she has a <50% chance of winning. Make sense?

That's much clearer thanks.

What data are you using to base your percentages on, can you post a link?

 

[Skullpunch]

That's much clearer thanks.

What data are you using to base your percentages on, can you post a link?

The percentages are an educated guess based on discussions with her over at the sherdog f12 forum. It's also the conclusion I've drawn in general terms through training with a range of partners who are weaker/stronger/more technical/less technical than myself. I can usually beat a guy who's better than me if he/she is a LOT weaker, and vice versa. The more the gap in technique closes, the more of a difference strength makes.

 

[Paul_D]

The percentages are an educated guess based on discussions with her over at the sherdog f12 forum. It's also the conclusion I've drawn in general terms through training with a range of partners who are weaker/stronger/more technical/less technical than myself. I can usually beat a guy who's better than me if he/she is a LOT weaker, and vice versa. The more the gap in technique closes, the more of a difference strength makes.

Ok, thanks.

 

[lklawson]

I am not sure how this is relevant to women being attacked by men? Do many rapists train BJJ to purple belt in order to be able to rape women who may be trained to fight on the ground?

No. But it has happened. Made a HUGE stink in the BJJ community too. To say that the BJJ community was "outraged" would be an understatement.

To be honest, ground-fighting/grappling skills are more popular than ever in living memory and, therefore, more trained than ever. The likelihood of an attacker having some training in newaza keeps going up and up. Statistically speaking, I'd guess that the percentage of attackers trained in any martial art at all would be small, but of those, the fraction which trains in some form of ground-grappling is increasing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Old Judoka]

One thing does surprise me though, with the Rousey Phenomenon, I'm surprised that Judo Dojo's didn't explode with new membership.

 

[drop bear]

One thing does surprise me though, with the Rousey Phenomenon, I'm surprised that Judo Dojo's didn't explode with new membership.

There is this awkward issue with judo trying to separate itself from mma.

What is judo's problem with mixed martial arts?

 

[Old Judoka]

So...if a boxer goes to a boxing match or a Taekwondo guy goes to a Taekwondo tournament, or a Judoka goes to a Judo tournament that's not ok? They all are still separate sports with separate regulating bodies. Judo is still its own Olympic sport. If you go into the Olympic Games slinging MMA in a Judo championship, you're going to get shown the door. Everything didn't just become all MMA. What's MMA's problem with all the other sports?

 

[drop bear]

So...if a boxer goes to a boxing match or a Taekwondo guy goes to a Taekwondo tournament, or a Judoka goes to a Judo tournament that's not ok? They all are still separate sports with separate regulating bodies. Judo is still its own Olympic sport. If you go into the Olympic Games slinging MMA in a Judo championship, you're going to get shown the door. Everything didn't just become all MMA. What's MMA's problem with all the other sports?

You can't compete in mma and still judo. You get kicked out. It is the only time I have heard of any organisation doing that.

 

[Steve]

What's MMA's problem with all the other sports?

I think that's backwards.

 

[Langenschwert]

the days where you can avoid ground fighting have been over for a while and it's only going to get more so. I think you should consider at least a year of Judo, BJJ, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Shuai Chiao or some other grappling system.

They've been over for well, forever. It was only for what, the 19th and 20th century that people who expected to have to fight didn't have grappling as a core part of their training. HS 3227a (circa 1389) states "all fencing comes from wrestling".

The only way to beat a grappler is to be able to grapple well enough yourself. By which I mean well enough that it's not worth it to your opponent to continue the engagement. If a non-grappler gets taken down and the wrestler decides to pursue the engagement on the ground, then that's where it's going to end, barring outside intervention.

Besides all that, wrasslin' is fun! Why wouldn't you take a year and have a bucketload of fun at a BJJ/Judo/Catch school? You'll become much tougher and way less scared of ending up on the ground.

 

[lklawson]

They've been over for well, forever. It was only for what, the 19th and 20th century that people who expected to have to fight didn't have grappling as a core part of their training.

Actual real professional and amateur wresting was popular in the 19th and early 20th Centuries. Used to be a common part of the early equivalent of gymnastics and health clubs. Everybody did Catch wrestling, even amateur boxers and regular old health nuts. Wrestling manuals were nearly as common as boxing manuals.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Old Judoka]

Wouldn't know about getting kicked out of anything. I'm 56 years old, I'm not going to start doing MMA at this junction of my life. I'm doing good to be able to do randori with college kids which is my current situation. As I've said in many posts now, I'm looking for enough striking for my daughters for Selfdefence. So in the end they will have a bit of MMA background. If they decide they want to be Holly Holm, I'm sure they will move in that direction.

 

[FriedRice]

I do not want to specifically gain a ground advantage nor take years learning ground skills.. I am too lazy and short on time for that.. Just for this one situation how, mechanically, am I to go about getting back to upright most expediently?

Many to a hell of a lot of BJJ-only guys, all the way up to Black Belts, wouldn't be able to escape or submit a trained striker while they're throwing full punches at them, because they don't train full MMA....and their face have never really been tested with full fists, knees, etc. There's a reason why many people train only BJJ or train only Muay Thai.....they're _USUALLY_ not comfortable with the other major aspect, of fighting. It's quite optimistic to think that you can figure this out from merely reading text postings. It takes a lot to be able to escape or sweep someone who has you in full mount. Much worse if it's a much stronger man while he's raining punches to your face. There are no shortcuts to this.

 

[Hanzou]

Many to a hell of a lot of BJJ-only guys, all the way up to Black Belts, wouldn't be able to escape or submit a trained striker while they're throwing full punches at them, because they don't train full MMA....and their face have never really been tested with full fists, knees, etc. There's a reason why many people train only BJJ or train only Muay Thai.....they're _USUALLY_ not comfortable with the other major aspect, of fighting. It's quite optimistic to think that you can figure this out from merely reading text postings. It takes a lot to be able to escape or sweep someone who has you in full mount. Much worse if it's a much stronger man while he's raining punches to your face. There are no shortcuts to this.

Right on the money. You can watch MMA bouts and see just how hard it is to counter someone in full mount raining blows down on you. This is why Guard retention and learning escapes are so important. You really need to do everything in your power to prevent the full mount (or side mount) from happening.