Any good advice to a non ground fighter??

[Star Dragon]

Like in the other thread about striking from below, in some defensive situation, if I am on my back mounted by an attacker, whatis the simplest / most effective advice for me I am a non-ground fighter???

I want up!! can you tell me how you would suggest? Like I mean keep it simple because I do not really know about nothing.. I do not want to specifically gain a ground advantage nor take years learning ground skills.. I am too lazy and short on time for that.. Just for this one situation how, mechanically, am I to go about getting back to upright most expediently? What, beyond the obvious, getting him off of me, am I aiming to do and how to do it?? I have little to no advantage against half decent ground fighters or larger opponents who have managed a takedown and mount until I am up.. or.. at the very least suwari or seiza like seated or knees where I regain some mechanical advantage or have some thing to work with.. thank you for your advice Jx

Hello Jenna,

I suggest you build on your existing skill set rather than learning a new one from the ground up. Your profile tells me that you have been studying Aikido for a couple of decades. Now, Aikido techniques can be readily adapted to ground fighting. I have a pretty interesting book on that, Aikido Ground Fighting: Grappling and Submission Techniques by Walther G. Von Krenner.

http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-Ground...944222&sr=8-1&keywords=aikido+ground+fighting

This would surely give you some ideas. Among general principles and some specific Aikido techniques, it also goes into some variations of the sleeper hold (carotid choke), a very basic and effective grappling technique that you want to familiarize yourself with in any case. Provided you can get it on, you can neutralize even the baddest dude within mere seconds.

I really don't recommend biting a mugger. If you survive an attack just to succumb to the attacker's Hepatitis B or C or what not later, he got you after all. Yes, there may be situations when you have to use whatever there is at your disposal, but other than what I already outlined, it's best to train some simple knee and elbow techniques, head butts and various strikes to the neck, groin and eyes - not least to avoid being taken to the ground in the first place!

Hope this helps.

 

[Hanzou]

That was kind of the main point of my post. Biting, scratching, pinching, tickling, gouging, etc. all only work if three things are true:
1. You do them well and in time.
2. The other guys notices in time.
3. He decides to stop whatever he's doing instead of just do it more.

It's not exactly the best plan.

A better plan is to spend a little time learning how to physically move him off of you. If pain-compliance is then an add-on that you train to possibly assist with your already functional technique, then sure. Just don't expect that pinching a little skin on a guy's waist is going to get him off you. And yes, I've seen that taught as amount escape!

So yes, I think it depends entirely on people's various pain thresholds, which is why I advocate against pain compliance as a general strategy.

As do I.

Frankly, if your goal is to counter the mount without paying for a Bjj class (why you wouldn't want to go and experience Bjj, I have no idea...), I would just go to Youtube and look up Bjj mount escapes. Find one that you think is simple, get a partner, and practice it until you feel confident. Make sure in the latter stages, your partner is giving you as much resistance as possible.

Obviously the best case scenario is actually going to a Bjj gym and learning it from a qualified instructor, but I personally feel that that knowledge of getting someone off of you is too important to ignore.

Especially for women.

 

[GiYu - Todd]

So that is why I would prefer the simplest mechanical means as I had asked in OP in order to get him off of me so I can get up, Jx

I just stumbled upon this posting. For the most part, I would write exactly what Tony did in his first response to you. Control distance, then use legs/hips to thrust them forward off-balance and roll so you come up in their guard.

A couple other important points would be energy management and structure.
Energy management: Often when someone gets on top mount, they can play "wet blanket" and wear you down. If the attacker is larger/heavier, it doesn't take much effort for them to control your arms and just lay weight on your torso to pin you. Unless you're in great cardio shape, most people have about a 60 second energy reserve in a panic and flail defensive situation. So try to control your breathing and wasted moves. Easier said than done in that situation, but if you can maintain presense of mind, try to preserve some of your energy.
Structure: As the attacker is attempting to top mount, you can frustrate their efforts by maintaining structure between you and them. Keep putting elbows/knees in the way. Your bone structure will sustain their weight easier and cause them to burn their energy reserves in the effort. No... this won't work against a trained fighter, but for someone untrained it might buy you some extra time, wear them down some, or cause them to attempt a less advantageous position allowing you to break free.

A last option is to feign a surrender. This is one of the concepts Gracie Women Empowered uses. If you simply can't move a much larger attacker from on top of you, then feign surrender BEFORE you have expended all your energy. If their goal is sexual assault, they can't do that from top mount and will have to move to your guard. Once you've feigned surrender (actually say "I give up. Do what you want, just please don't hurt me."), they may briefly let their defenses down. During their transition to your guard, you attack explosively with punches, elbows, kicks as you move backward to gain distance and get up. The kicks must be strong enough to push them backward away from you.

 

[Koshiki]

As do I.

Frankly, if your goal is to counter the mount without paying for a Bjj class (why you wouldn't want to go and experience Bjj, I have no idea...), I would just go to Youtube and look up Bjj mount escapes. Find one that you think is simple, get a partner, and practice it until you feel confident. Make sure in the latter stages, your partner is giving you as much resistance as possible.

Obviously the best case scenario is actually going to a Bjj gym and learning it from a qualified instructor, but I personally feel that that knowledge of getting someone off of you is too important to ignore.

Especially for women.

Gotta be careful with the Youtube thing though. It doesn't have to be BJJ, but it does have to be someone who understands competent ground work. No matter what the system, make sure that the escape both works, and places you where you want to be. For example, escapes that place you in guard are going to be less useful to a stand up guy than they will be to a BJJ player.

Watch out for stuff like this:

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Watch out for stuff like this:

Not the worst I've seen, but pretty bad.

 

[Hanzou]

Gotta be careful with the Youtube thing though. It doesn't have to be BJJ, but it does have to be someone who understands competent ground work. No matter what the system, make sure that the escape both works, and places you where you want to be. For example, escapes that place you in guard are going to be less useful to a stand up guy than they will be to a BJJ player.

Watch out for stuff like this:

Stuff like that is why I said stick to the Bjj videos. I recommend anything from Grapplearts.com, Connection Rio, Submissions 101, Greg Jackson's vids, anything from the various Gracie schools, etc. There's some really good instructional stuff on the web that's free.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The ground skill used in competition can be more realistic (at 0.30).

[/QUOTE]

 

[Jenna]

@Star Dragon, book looks interesting thank you. Thing is, in all of my time I had never trained for fighting on my back and worse, my own hubris told me I would not need to. Fingers crossed I have not and will not though came a little close for comfort a time back hence my original question to which I have had some v helpful ideas, Jxx

@GiYu - Todd, I like these ideas.. from here I can discern your experience so it is appreciated what you wrote, thank you! Conservation of energy, I think that is an excellent point, I rely so much on technique as strength can be limited for me, and but your feign surrender, I like a lot at least to provide some kind of opening to use what has been listed above. Is good! thank you again, Jxxx

 

[Old Judoka]

Well the days of getting away with a few basic techniques is slowly coming to an end. At least here in the states. I'm starting to see more grappling and MMA schools than any other form of martial art in many U.S. cities, and more meatheads opening grappling garages where they're learning Bjj and CACC from videos.

That just means that there's an ever increasing chance of running into someone with solid grappling skills. Unless you're drilling on a consistent basis, basic techniques might not be enough.

Agree with you TOTALLY. Just in my town of about 90,000, there are about 7 or 8 places where you can go that claim they'll teach you MMA and BJJ. Four of them are in kinda bad area's of town. A lot of wannabes hanging around some of these places. Only two of them are run by stand up, known, credentialed guys. I'm worried enough about it that after decades away from Judo, I'm back at a club. I'm bringing my daughters with me, so that I can work with them there and away from the Dojo. Jenna, the days where you can avoid ground fighting have been over for a while and it's only going to get more so. I think you should consider at least a year of Judo, BJJ, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Shuai Chiao or some other grappling system.

 

[Jenna]

Jenna, the days where you can avoid ground fighting have been over for a while and it's only going to get more so. I think you should consider at least a year of Judo, BJJ, Japanese Ju Jitsu, Shuai Chiao or some other grappling system.

Understand your points there friend, thank you wonder why you say this above: days of avoiding ground fighting have been over a while?? I find I am doing not so bad without.. just looking to close off my weaker areas as a stand-up fighter.. would not have it in me to retrain a whole other art thank you Jx

 

[Old Judoka]

The main thrust of my point is I'm agreeing with Hanzou. I think that since everyone nowadays is trying to fight like an MMA fighter, statistically, one is going to run into the chance of facing ground work if they fight very much. In my own case, I'm not trying turn my daughters into mini-Rousey's, I just want them to have a small arsenal of throws they can use in combinations, in case the first throw attempt fails, they still can probably get someone on the ground and run like hell. I want them also to be able to do some ground work if they have to. Judo isn't just all arm bars, it has a nifty array of chokes as well. We are fortunate enough that my girls are friends with a girl (yes, a girl) who is on the wrestling team. They can already shoot and defend against shoots. I also want them to learn a striking art, partially using striking as a way to setup for throws. I'm leaning toward Wing Chun or JKD, since there are schools for both with a reasonable distance of me. Jenna, I'd appreciate your input with regard to that. Anyhow, I hope you have a great day!

 

[Hanzou]

Understand your points there friend, thank you wonder why you say this above: days of avoiding ground fighting have been over a while?? I find I am doing not so bad without.. just looking to close off my weaker areas as a stand-up fighter.. would not have it in me to retrain a whole other art thank you Jx

Honestly, if you're looking to "close off a weaker area", then you really should just take Bjj for 6-12 months. Learning that range of fighting is really worth your time.

I've seen plenty of examples of "expert" stand up fighters ending up on the ground, and looking like complete buffoons. Even someone with a few months training would be better off than they were.

 

[drop bear]

I still think mma would be a bit more applicable for strikers to integrate ground work. Plus the whole getting back up emphasis.

 

[Jenna]

The main thrust of my point is I'm agreeing with Hanzou. I think that since everyone nowadays is trying to fight like an MMA fighter, statistically, one is going to run into the chance of facing ground work if they fight very much. In my own case, I'm not trying turn my daughters into mini-Rousey's, I just want them to have a small arsenal of throws they can use in combinations, in case the first throw attempt fails, they still can probably get someone on the ground and run like hell. I want them also to be able to do some ground work if they have to. Judo isn't just all arm bars, it has a nifty array of chokes as well. We are fortunate enough that my girls are friends with a girl (yes, a girl) who is on the wrestling team. They can already shoot and defend against shoots. I also want them to learn a striking art, partially using striking as a way to setup for throws. I'm leaning toward Wing Chun or JKD, since there are schools for both with a reasonable distance of me. Jenna, I'd appreciate your input with regard to that. Anyhow, I hope you have a great day!

It is best parenting that you are teaching your daughters a thing or two about this x.. and but why WC or JKD and not your Judo? you find Judo is not sufficient? Do you also train multiple arts? I am Aikido and so probably not best to dispense advice.. it has held me up ok over the time though I had concerns over inadvertently getting caught and ending up like a beetle wriggling upside down on my back so hence the earlier questions about mechanical righting.. good answers, I experiment with what was explained here and have a way that functions for emergencies let us know how your girls get along if you take them to either wing chun or jeet kune do, I would be interested. Thank you

 

[Old Judoka]

It is best parenting that you are teaching your daughters a thing or two about this x.. and but why WC or JKD and not your Judo? you find Judo is not sufficient? Do you also train multiple arts? I am Aikido and so probably not best to dispense advice.. it has held me up ok over the time though I had concerns over inadvertently getting caught and ending up like a beetle wriggling upside down on my back so hence the earlier questions about mechanical righting.. good answers, I experiment with what was explained here and have a way that functions for emergencies let us know how your girls get along if you take them to either wing chun or jeet kune do, I would be interested. Thank you

I am working with them on judo, but being older and out of touch with it so long, I'm experiencing my own sort of learning curve. Some of the muscle memory is there, but I have to stretch a lot longer. I'm basically putting together about 7 or 8 throws for them that they can use in combinations if the first throw attempt fails. I'm looking at striking as a means of entry for throws. In the old old judo days (older than me even), I understand that they used to use atemi-waza with some throws for entry. A nice concept for using Judo for self defense. It almost makes me wish I had been exposed to Judo even earlier than I was. When I was taking it, there were only 40 throws.

 

[Langenschwert]

Judo is a great base for SD, but if your girls are smaller it could get them in trouble. The last thing a smaller female wants is to tie up with a larger aggressor. The could just get pancaked. The striking doesn't need to be sophisticated pugilism, it needs to get them into a position where they can run away. Attempting to throw someone who may outweigh you by 100 lbs is seldom a good idea. In the unlikely event the throw is successful, you'll go down in a heap with the opponent, so you'll be outweighed AND on the ground. Risky on so many levels. Sure, I incorporate takedowns in my SD training, but I'm just shy of 200 lbs, train Judo twice a week, combatives once a week, and medieval wrestling once a week. Even then I'd be reluctant to tie up with someone if I could just feed them strikes instead and run away.

 

[Old Judoka]

Judo is a great base for SD, but if your girls are smaller it could get them in trouble. The last thing a smaller female wants is to tie up with a larger aggressor. The could just get pancaked. The striking doesn't need to be sophisticated pugilism, it needs to get them into a position where they can run away. Attempting to throw someone who may outweigh you by 100 lbs is seldom a good idea. In the unlikely event the throw is successful, you'll go down in a heap with the opponent, so you'll be outweighed AND on the ground. Risky on so many levels. Sure, I incorporate takedowns in my SD training, but I'm just shy of 200 lbs, train Judo twice a week, combatives once a week, and medieval wrestling once a week. Even then I'd be reluctant to tie up with someone if I could just feed them strikes instead and run away.

This is why I'd like to get them into a striking art as well. As far as throwing, we are staying away from hand and hip techniques, unless they want to learn them later. Two techniques we drill heavily on are kouchi and ouchi-gari and they perform them on me (200 lbs.). I'm being pretty selective with what I'm teaching them. I want strikes if they are on the outside, but if the aggressor has closed the gap or gotten hands on them, then strikes as a means for entry of a take down. I'm not looking for them to be Olympic Judoists, or to go toe-to-toe with anyone. Strike and run, or strike, take down and run. They are going to go to the mat with me as well. Since a lot of altercations go to the ground. I feel like they should know how to handle the ground, get loose and get away.

 

[Skullpunch]

If you don't know how to fight on the ground and your attacker does you're not getting out from underneath that person unless you manage to weasel a knife out of your pocket and into his/her ribs. That's not a knock against striking arts or aikido, it's just how physics and leverage work. Larpy idealism vs. physics is a battle that physics always wins. Also, if I gain full mount on someone in the first place it means I'm probably better than that person (unless he fell on a banana peel) and will be very difficult to escape from even if he knows what he's doing. And this is if I'm talking about male vs. male. You specified "him" in your post so male vs. female...let's put it this way, Hillary Williams is a bjj world champion in the female division and even she isn't fully confident that she could handle herself with an especially strong male on top of her. At her best she still got tapped by male purple belts, and she was the world's highest level black belt at one point in time.

Even biting and eye gouging is far from a sure thing. If I take someone down, I'm a grappler and my opponent is not, and he tries to bite and eye gouge me, I'm doing it right back and since I have 100% of the control and 100% of the leverage and he has 0% of both, I can put myself in a position to rip his eyes out at will while the best he can do is flail at vulnerable areas and hope to get lucky. Anyone who says "I'd just bite/eye gouge my way out of mount if a bjj guy/wrestler/judoka took me down" has a woefully false sense of security. I mean, if it's all they got then yeah it makes sense to use it but the assumption that it's going to be some silver bullet self-defense tactic that eliminates grappling from being a factor in a real fight is dangerously misguided.

If you want practical advice that doesn't fill your head with ******** that will get you killed, raped, maimed, robbed, etc. then get a concealable weapon and learn how to use it.

 

[Old Judoka]

If you don't know how to fight on the ground and your attacker does you're not getting out from underneath that person unless you manage to weasel a knife out of your pocket and into his/her ribs. That's not a knock against striking arts or aikido, it's just how physics and leverage work. Larpy idealism vs. physics is a battle that physics always wins. Also, if I gain full mount on someone in the first place it means I'm probably better than that person (unless he fell on a banana peel) and will be very difficult to escape from even if he knows what he's doing. And this is if I'm talking about male vs. male. You specified "him" in your post so male vs. female...let's put it this way, Hillary Williams is a bjj world champion in the female division and even she isn't fully confident that she could handle herself with an especially strong male on top of her. At her best she still got tapped by male purple belts, and she was the world's highest level black belt at one point in time.

Even biting and eye gouging is far from a sure thing. If I take someone down, I'm a grappler and my opponent is not, and he tries to bite and eye gouge me, I'm doing it right back and since I have 100% of the control and 100% of the leverage and he has 0% of both, I can put myself in a position to rip his eyes out at will while the best he can do is flail at vulnerable areas and hope to get lucky. Anyone who says "I'd just bite/eye gouge my way out of mount if a bjj guy/wrestler/judoka took me down" has a woefully false sense of security. I mean, if it's all they got then yeah it makes sense to use it but the assumption that it's going to be some silver bullet self-defense tactic that eliminates grappling from being a factor in a real fight is dangerously misguided.

If you want practical advice that doesn't fill your head with ******** that will get you killed, raped, maimed, robbed, etc. then get a concealable weapon and learn how to use it.

Hey Skullpunch, cool name. I like this thread because everyone makes good points. There's always someone bigger, faster, stronger, leaner and meaner. That being said, I'd no doubt feel the most reassured if I could send my girls to the high school with concealed weapons, but we know how that would turn out. Since I can't do that, all I can give them is some guidance, caution them about situational awareness, give them some techniques that may get them out of a life threatening jam, Which is better than saying; "well, if some stronger guy gets them in a full mount, there's nothing they can do anyway, so we better not waste our time.....". I want them to have a fighting chance, with emphasis on the fighting. I've never seen a full mount that occurs in one second or less. There's a time window, as for myself if someone is within seconds of having me in a full mount and I have my arms around their waist and my head between their navel and their nips, and it's either chew my way to their back bone or die, guess what I'm going to do....if I do die, then a whole bunch of their skin is going to have my salivary DNA all over it when they have to go to the hospital. Just sayin'.

 

[Jenna]

@Skullpunch, hello to you I understand your advice and you have my gratitude that you took time to give it.. It is sound advice I would not present any arguments against it. Though for me personally and that is not to speak for every one at all.. for me personally I want some thing very specific is why I asked.. I want to get back up, that is all, I will not require advice from that point.. just to get up or even to seiza, is that possible from there and how.. I have tried what was suggested and have found it adequate to achievce this which I would not have known prior Personally I do not wish to inflict injury upon the person at this point if it is possible I can get out and get up.. you are saying this is not possible with a trained fighter already I am mounted or in his guard, I would not argue, just specifically in my situation they are not trained like that here, I am quite certain of this.. there is just a different attitude towards women that I am one or two times uncomfortably aware of is all.. Still, your advice is good, just to get up though not weapons.. for me personally speaking that is all thank you x