A clinch is much more useful in a sporting competition, where you know you will not get head butted than in self defense.
Anti-grappling.
- Thread starter K-man
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A clinch is much more useful in a sporting competition, where you know you will not get head butted than in self defense.
Now there's a point. Well said that man!
We've heard constantly over several threads now how this doesn't work, that doesn't work yet not one video from the person accusing these styles and stylists. 'Post and prove it' has been the cry a few times, perhaps it's time we shouted it back. Post a video of yourself 'pressure testing' what you say works.
I and others have asked them to post videos of themselves before.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Posting videos of poor technique and baseless claims is not "stepping up".
Hanzou
Grandmaster
That's quite a false equivalence you got there.
The difference is that my claims don't go against common held beliefs. Anti-grappling claims that you can defeat any grappler with Wing Chun strikes. That claim flies against common held beliefs, so you need to prove the claim.
I've given critiques of numerous videos of anti-grappling, showcasing my knowledge of grappling in general. If you have an issue with those critiques, feel free to correct me.
You are not going to get a good downward elbow with any decent amount of power from that position (with both feet side by side and the opponents body that high up on yours). You would need to step one leg back and push his head down, and then do the elbow.
:lfao: that's just bollocks, post up a video of yourself showing where WC's 'anti grappling' is going wrong. Then find a new catch phrase that one is worn thin. :lfao:
It is still more than you have provided. Let's see how your technique is and how much base your claims have before you judge others.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
How are you going to have enough force to push his head down when he has your shoulder elevated passed your neck?
Not to mention that as soon as he senses your shift in weight, he's taking you down.
The one-step self defense stuff doesn't work. Let it go and learn to sprawl.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Do I really need to post a video of why a groin grab from the bottom of mount is a stupid idea, or why this;
Isn't a good takedown defense?
It's like saying I need to post a video to prove that the Earth is round.
Howabout you tell us some good things about anti-grappling that we're somehow missing.
I've been sitting back watching the sparks fly on this thread but have finally decided to weigh in.
I'm a Wing Tsun guy...have been for 20 years now. I trained with Emin Boztepe for 10 of those years and have seen his anti grappling taught first hand. I've seen him personally demonstrate it on countless people...yes even BJJ people (*GASP).
Let's leave him aside though, he's a big boy and can stand up for himself. Let's talk about my hands on experience.
I have tried anti grappling concepts numerous times against all types of grapplers, ranging from high school wrestlers, to catch wrestlers to judoka to BJJ people. I've also applied it to good old corn fed country boys who have no real grappling experience other than being strong as a freakin ox and willing to get down and dirty and plant your face in the dirt.
And guess what?... it works. Is it a magic bullet that gets you out without any effort? No. It is taking the form of MA that I chose to train in and putting in long hard hours of developing my skills then applying these skills against non compliant training partners.
Grapplers love what they do, I get it. So do I. I don't bash what they do, in fact I appreciate their skill and am always thankful when one of them drops by to allow me the privilege to train with them. We don't thump our chests and call what the other does BS...we learn from each other and move on.
It's easy to be a forum/keyboard warrior. If the anti grappling you see is bogus in your mind, find your local "anti grappler" and put it to the test....the 2 of you just may learn something together.
I'm a Wing Tsun guy...have been for 20 years now. I trained with Emin Boztepe for 10 of those years and have seen his anti grappling taught first hand. I've seen him personally demonstrate it on countless people...yes even BJJ people (*GASP).
Let's leave him aside though, he's a big boy and can stand up for himself. Let's talk about my hands on experience.
I have tried anti grappling concepts numerous times against all types of grapplers, ranging from high school wrestlers, to catch wrestlers to judoka to BJJ people. I've also applied it to good old corn fed country boys who have no real grappling experience other than being strong as a freakin ox and willing to get down and dirty and plant your face in the dirt.
And guess what?... it works. Is it a magic bullet that gets you out without any effort? No. It is taking the form of MA that I chose to train in and putting in long hard hours of developing my skills then applying these skills against non compliant training partners.
Grapplers love what they do, I get it. So do I. I don't bash what they do, in fact I appreciate their skill and am always thankful when one of them drops by to allow me the privilege to train with them. We don't thump our chests and call what the other does BS...we learn from each other and move on.
It's easy to be a forum/keyboard warrior. If the anti grappling you see is bogus in your mind, find your local "anti grappler" and put it to the test....the 2 of you just may learn something together.
Hanzou
Grandmaster
So Yak, would you say that the videos provided in this thread, and the thread in the WC forum are a good and fair representation of Wing Tsun anti-grappling?
Oh and one other thing....the "anti-grappling" term.
"Anti" means to fight against. to oppose. to offer a resistance.
Nowhere in that term is it implied that WC is immune to grappling. It instead tells you our approach to dealing with said grappler. We oppose them. We use our WC skills to fight against what they are trying to accomplish.
The term could have been "counter grappling" or "grappling defense", but the term anti grappling fits more with a WC fighter's mindset, which is one of always going forward, taking the fight to our opponent. Not hanging back and waiting to see what they do so we can respond.
"Anti" means to fight against. to oppose. to offer a resistance.
Nowhere in that term is it implied that WC is immune to grappling. It instead tells you our approach to dealing with said grappler. We oppose them. We use our WC skills to fight against what they are trying to accomplish.
The term could have been "counter grappling" or "grappling defense", but the term anti grappling fits more with a WC fighter's mindset, which is one of always going forward, taking the fight to our opponent. Not hanging back and waiting to see what they do so we can respond.
Do you actually read my words or do they somehow float across your eyes and turn into something else. I haven't mentioned anti grappling, I haven't said anything about any beliefs common or not, I have made no claim at all about anything on this thread but what I have done is ask you to post up videos of you demonstrating why anti grappling doesn't work. what you have posted up is others not you, not too much to ask is it that you, personally show us what you mean?
I'm not claiming that anti grappling works as you seem to think so I have no need to prove any claim at all, I'm asking for a video of you. You ask for people to post up videos of themselves, why shouldn't we ask for one at least of you?
You seem to think I have a dog in this argument, I don't, I don't know whether anti grappling works or not, I haven't said it does or doesn't which if you had actually read my posts you would understand. I'm quite happy to be convinced either way but rather than posting silly gifs why not post a video of you? Go on convince me :lfao:
Yak sao, very good, considered thoughtful post, it was good reading.
The one of EB that you have playing in a loop vs. the shoot in is not what I would chose to do against someone coming in on me. We are taught, in fact Emin taught me this, to not give the knee to someone who is moving forward because you are giving them a handle.
I think this particular video was simply a demo...not the best choice in my opinion, but then you have never been kicked by Emin and felt the power in his technique, or tried to uproot him as he stands effortlessly on one leg and fends you off like you're a little kid...I have.
It has become apparent to me in the short time I have been here that he/she does not.
You use your hips and drop your body weight and you do it before he gets in that far.
Not if you drop him first.
And you know that from your vast knowledge of one step self defense do you?
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well not the gif, but the numerous videos that have been posted. Here's a repost;
Nope, can't say that I have. However, I do have my doubts that you can stop a single leg takedown in that fashion.
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And some good old fashioned skepticism is fine. What I think people are perceiving from you though is cynicism.
What's the saying? "A cynic knows that price of everything and the value of nothing".
I'm not a student of those guys so I can't speak for them. I have had the opportunity to train some with sifu Yannis about 16 years ago at one of Emin's fighter camps, him I can speak for. He's one tough SOB, as is Emin. Their stuff works.
I will give you this. WC does not demo well. it comes across rather weak and even kind of silly looking. And with anything, there is both good and bad and everything in between. Don't rely on what you see on youtube to make an informed decision about WC.
You really need to find someone who is decent at their craft and give it a go.
You may be quite surprised at what you find.
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