Anti-Grappling Demos

[Si-Je]

Originally Posted by Odin
I think you are mixing stuff between what is useful for a real fight, and what is useful for a competition

that one line is something I have heard a lot on this forum and to be honest really winds me up, my only assumption of the people that make this statement would be that them themselves have not actually had any fights nor have an idea of what real fights are like.....(im not talking the demo's you do in your class)
Why would MMA just be about ground work???why would grapperling only be about submissions???You ever heard the saying position before submission?
The more you know about grapperling the more you can defend against a grapple..any kind of grapple..whether it be a grappler from Rich Franklin or a grappler from a fat guy outside a club you will always be able to to come off on top if you know what your doing, grabbing your opponent is the second most commonly used tactic used in a street fight!....and unlike most other arts when you defend these thing you do so with someone who really wants to take you down not someone that is going to ask you ''are you ready?'' four times before attempting the move only to then wait for you to do the correct response,you will have someone that will twist and turn and move they're hands all over your face and funny enough try to take you down as if his life depended on it...
-- that's well and good, but when you are grabbed by somone. Do you grab them back? Yes, if your a grappler, No if you use anti-grappling. When a grappler grabbs me, well, then I know where his hands are and what their doing. This leaves me free to strike and kick, etc. It's a different way of thinking as well as fighting. You realize you have more options than you previously thought before.
I notices aswel in those videos that there wasn't any 'plan b'? this is another thing that confuses me, these TMA techniques don't seem to have any back up plans you know just in case the move you just did didn't work out how you thought it would, ask any good fight in the world no matter what the sport and they'll have a plan a b c d and e for every move they do.....actual fighting leaves far to many variables for only one technique to work.
--haveing plan B will not always help you. Their's too many factors in a fight. "never anticipate the outcome of the engagement."--bruce lee.
In the guiterrez videos on anti-grappling these students study and train european wrestling and grappling. These guys aren't able to execute "plan B" because he's really HITTING them. Their rougher in Europe, it seems. We don't train like that, we use gear, but he's getting the point accross that while you try to set up to get "position" before "submission" he's pounding your face.
Like I said, theirs not alot of people in the states that know the anti-grappling techniques. Their Emin's creation, and it's only been around for 6-8 years, so it is still evolving. WT doesn't train this WC doesn't train anti-grappling, no one does except EBMAS, (I think Systema does too, it looks like they do the same stuff).
Plus, the anti-grappling is NOT just ONE technique. It's basically chi sau with your whole body, you flow, keep moving so they can't submit, re-direct the opponents strength and force. The more they try to hurt you, the easier it is to roll them off, strike, and get off the ground faster.

 

[Ram]

I don't see how grabbing someone and falling on your butt to the ground to get them in an armbar is an advantage for me.

Let me explain again. You use grappling to try not to be taken down but if you do get taken down it will do you a 100% more good than anti-grappling.

whole body, you flow, keep moving so they can't submit, re-direct the opponents strength and force. The more they try to hurt you, the easier it is to roll them off, strike, and get off the ground faster.

Sounds like grappling to me. You either Strike or grapple a good martial artist knows both standing up ,mid range , and on the ground. But Anti-grappling????? That is like saying I have a anti-gun knife LoL.

We don't train like that, we use gear, but he's getting the point accross that while you try to set up to get "position" before "submission" he's pounding your face.

Yes, it is a classic grapplers move with strikes called ground and pound. Again you can be a striker and learn some grappling and a grappler that learns striking. Either way you have admited that grappling works in combat. You should learn some to make yourself a complete martial artist.

 

[Andrew Green]

I'll be honest, I like to punch my way into better positions

 

[Si-Je]

the difference with anti-grappling is that you do NOT grab and wrestle the opponent back. If you say as an example, grab my "gi" or shirt with both hands, I don't concentrate on making you release your grip from me. I simply use my two free hands to strike.
or, if you use both your arms to get me into an armbar to submit. I don't try to muscle out of the armbar, or use my free hand to grab you back, I strike you while using forward force with the trapped arm to get free of the armbar.

It's hard to explain in writing.

Tan sau will more often than not get you out of joint locks whether standing or on the ground. It really blew my mind when he started teaching me this. From my training in Ju-Jitsu I was trained that when your put in a joint lock you are at the opponents mercy (there's a few counters but generally when someone locks out on you your done.)
This is not so with Wing Chun.
You use Tan Sau, Dai Sau and Bong Sau to negate the joint lock in a fluid motion while stepping into, or moving into the grappler trying to break. See, the joint locks work much better against a resisting attacker. If you resist too much with a joint lock, you in effect break your own arm. All a grappler has to do is hold on.
But if you do NOT resist, relax the body and flow forward into the oppoent you take away alot of their leverage on the joint. Simply bending the elbow, and shooting the hand palm up in Tan Sau toward your opponents body will negate the lock.
This is done with one arm, while the free arm is striking.
I know it sounds weird. It freaked me out when he first explained it to me, and I didn't buy it either. I had to do it, and experience it before I believed it. I had a strong "grappling" background when I came to WC and thought as many of you do that once I had someone in a joint lock that was it, it was either submit or break. But I found that the WC very very basic concepts and anti-grappling worked so very well.
Honestly, it seems too well. I can keep a grappler at bay for a long while without getting winded or tired because you don't resist their force. You use angles, weight distribution, and re-direction of their weight and force against them just like you do when your standing up.
I've had guys get off me after sparring totally huffing and puffing out of breath, because of the effort that the used to try to submit me. And I was still fresh, ready to do some more.

"take the path of least resistance, be like the nature of water."
"sometimes to overcome a stronger current water must go underneath or below to overcome the stronger flow."

I cannot take a full force take down and stop a heavier stronger person, so to overcome I flow with them. If they wish to take me to the ground I do not resist but go with their force and use it against them by continueing their forward force. By not opposing, I can adapt more quickly to the direction of their attack.

 

[Ram]

You use Tan Sau, Dai Sau and Bong Sau to negate the joint lock in a fluid motion while stepping into, or moving into the grappler trying to break. See, the joint locks work much better against a resisting attacker. If you resist too much with a joint lock, you in effect break your own arm. All a grappler has to do is hold on.
But if you do NOT resist, relax the body and flow forward into the oppoent you take away alot of their leverage on the joint. Simply bending the elbow, and shooting the hand palm up in Tan Sau toward your opponents body will negate the lock.

That would be called grappling.

I've had guys get off me after sparring totally huffing and puffing out of breath, because of the effort that the used to try to submit me.

Hey now that's too much information LoL :uhyeah:

I cannot take a full force take down and stop a heavier stronger person, so to overcome I flow with them. If they wish to take me to the ground I do not resist but go with their force and use it against them by continueing their forward force. By not opposing, I can adapt more quickly to the direction of their attack.

Grappling again. Their seems to be a lot of grappling in anti-grappling lol why not just call it grappling defense?

 

[Si-Je]

my dear, you are missing the concept.
This is not grappling. For I do not grab the opponent back.
Using Tan Sau to "wiggle" out of an armbar is not grappling technique.
This is pure WC. This is the stuff we do with joint locks standing in around grade 3 or 4, depending on the teacher. Even when we put an opponent in a lock we do not grab the arm or wrist.
Plus, when a grappler grabs you, you do not wrestle them back by grabbing, or grasping them. That would be playing their game.
you can check out a couple of our videos on our website homepage. or look at the Guiterrez stuff again.
He actually hits. In our videos and class we don't hit the students.

 

[monji112000]

Si-Je,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...rappling&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title


Grappling doesn't equal grabbing the opponent. I have seen many “grapplers” Ground and pound and even BJJ fighters punch and kick from the ground. This is even when someone is trying to do a submission. Its not so simple to say I punch you “grab”.


You can call your “style” anti-grappling but thats not to say its Wing Chun. It isn't, thats a simple fact. Maybe its “your Wing Chun”.


As Ram said it is “grappling” or wrestling, you fail to see that ideas are not limited to one group of people/style. When you use a idea like redirecting, or jamming or covering you can apply it on many levels in many ways. You can apply it with two knifes in your hand or in a Chess game.. Its Wing Chun ideas, used in a different environment.


Anyone can create a wrestling or anti-grappling style(doesn't mean it works), but to be able to take Wing Chun theory and then apply it in a new arena takes allot. It takes a person to master Wing Chun (you won't find many people that have), then learn how to grapple, and then start to find similar ideas and new ways to use his ideas.


Much like a artist who creates a new “method” of art.


Honestly I have seen the “ant-grappling” by the “wing chun masters". LOL its really just really bad. I am not BJJ master but honestly. FIRST LEARN WING CHUN!


I hate it when you guys use the stupid rabbit punches and claim that its Wing Chun...if you are standing or on the ground.. no power exists from punches used in that way. They are very easy to counter and they are only a drop in the bucket when it comes to punches used in wing chun.


Chain punches are great some times. You have to learn how and why to use a tool.


I am 100% positive that if you really learn the theory and the drills that Ip man passed down. Then think about the ideas behind them. THEN start to train with people who are good at ground fighting, you will find what you are looking for.


I am not saying that BJJ/Sambo/ect.. is the best or even worth training, just that you have to give respect were its doe.


I enjoy training with people of all styles. Keep a open mind, you often find people who know much more than you do.

 

[Andrew Green]

or, if you use both your arms to get me into an armbar to submit. I don't try to muscle out of the armbar, or use my free hand to grab you back, I strike you while using forward force with the trapped arm to get free of the armbar.

Right here there is a big problem. If I got you in a armbar, and you start hitting me, what is keeping me from breaking your arm?

There is a reason that when people in MMA events are caught in these things there attention shifts from hitting the other guy to worrying about how they are going to get there arm out of there.

But the really important thing that "anti-grappling" seems to miss is that position is important, there are times when you are safe striking back, but there are other times where if you try to strike you will put yourself in bigger trouble.

In fact a common tactic on the ground, or in the clinch is to give the other person what they percieve as a opportunity to hit you, and then use there attempt at hitting you to get a throw, lock, choke, improved position or whatever else they might be looking for.

 

[Si-Je]

Right here there is a big problem. If I got you in a armbar, and you start hitting me, what is keeping me from breaking your arm?

If you read my last post I went into great detail about this. Using Tan Sau with the arm that is put into an armbar, relaxing, and corkscrewing your arm and body, will get your arm free of the arm bar, leaving your other arm free to help you get out of that position.

But the really important thing that "anti-grappling" seems to miss is that position is important, there are times when you are safe striking back, but there are other times where if you try to strike you will put yourself in bigger trouble..

This is duley noted.

In fact a common tactic on the ground, or in the clinch is to give the other person what they percieve as a opportunity to hit you, and then use there attempt at hitting you to get a throw, lock, choke, improved position or whatever else they might be looking for.

With WC punching your do not "commit" yourself when striking, thus you don't shift your weight or balance, thus you do not fall into these grappling feints. Same as when standing and punching, the same principles appliy on the ground. The principles of Wing Chun do NOT change whether standing, sitting, or on the ground. They work either way. Chi Sau is also cruital on the ground, the sensitivity training from those drills help you flow with the grappler.

And in respose to the other guy. Anti-grappling was developed by a master of Wing Tsun, a turkish wrestler, and a man who has studied BJJ extensively. The anti-grappling technique didn't just "come from the imagination of wing chunners. All of the principles, simplicity, techniques, and theories of WT were used to devise anti-grappling.
This is something that those who don't seem to understand or validate the techniques should just try. Once you FEEL these techniques, experiement with them, and learn about them you will start to understand more. The eyes decieve, and you won't learn or understand the concepts of anti-grappling from a book or video. Just like WT/WC, you can't truely learn by books, discussion, or video, you MUST feel, and experience it in class.
I still highly recomend anyone studying WT/WC to train as extensively as possible in anti-grappling. It will make you a well balanced fighter and defender. And it is a part of wing chun. It's just part of the evolution of wing chun, which is always in effect. If you do not adapt, no matter what art you study, it becomes stagnant. This happens much in kung fu. Keep the traditional, the techniques that are proven and tested to work, but don't be afraid of new thought and technique.

 

[monji112000]

With WC punching your do not "commit" yourself when striking, thus you don't shift your weight or balance, thus you do not fall into these grappling feints.

Hmm I have never heard that, that is something that differers from my lineage.
What do you mean by "commit". I would say that you must treat every attack like a real attack, and cover, it doesn't matter if its a feint or not. This is a Wing Chun principle that I have learned many times.

Same as when standing and punching, the same principles appliy on the ground. The principles of Wing Chun do NOT change whether standing, sitting, or on the ground. They work either way.

Its hard to make a black and white statement like that. In Wing Chun you have many different punches, and the only one that I can see working exactly the same as standing is chain punching. I would not consider chain punching as a viable option from your back in many situations. You can take “ideas” from the chain punch application and use the ideas. Taking ideas, not just blindly using the exact technique.


Again its not a black and white statement that Wing Chun principles don't change if you are on the ground. Everything changes! But many things stay the same or are similar.


From a mount position.
Your horse is none existent, when someone is at a mount position on you.
You have very little mobility so many of the punches arn't realistic. You can only punch with your arm muscle. You have no footwork and horse to generate power.
Kicking isn't really possible.
ect..

I am not saying that you can't use Wing Chun for ground fighting. I am only saying that you have to use your head. You must be fluent in a ground fighting style that is effective. I personally don't consider turkish wrestling as a viable base to building on.


IF you would tell me that someone had 4 years of High School/ College wrestling and maybe some BJJ training.. ok that would be something to take note of.


Emin's Wing Chun and his ground fighting are vary similar, If you like his Wing Chun then you are going to like his “ground fighting”.


If you want to learn to ride a horse GO TO SOMEONE who can already ride a horse.


I am always open to new ideas, and thoughts.

 

[Si-Je]

Hmm I have never heard that, that is something that differers from my lineage.
What do you mean by "commit". I would say that you must treat every attack like a real attack, and cover, it doesn't matter if its a feint or not. This is a Wing Chun principle that I have learned many times..

What I mean by "commit", is that when your punching your not leaning and throwing your body weight into the punches. The arm is like the head of a battering ram reinforced by your entire body moving forward, keeping the body straight and relaxed at the same time. This allows you to flow with where your opponent moves at an instant. Different than say a boxer, karate, etc, that uses muscle and strength to "throw" their body into the strike. Thus, leaning and becoming "top heavy".

We keep totally relaxed with our hands and arms until the very moment of impact, then we tense for the strike. This way you can flow with your opponent, feeling and re-directing your opponent. I am not "committed" to any movement until I feel pressure, or contact from my opponent.

Its hard to make a black and white statement like that. In Wing Chun you have many different punches, and the only one that I can see working exactly the same as standing is chain punching. I would not consider chain punching as a viable option from your back in many situations. You can take “ideas” from the chain punch application and use the ideas. Taking ideas, not just blindly using the exact technique. .

Your concept and approach stay the same. If you shift your body weight on a wrestler or grappler you set yourself up for what they are planning. You relax the body, do not give reistance of physical muscling and strength. You tense up that's what they want, it's eaiser to manipulate the joint the more you resist.

Chain punching is very effective on your back, remember the opponent is applying force upon YOU. They are leaning into your strikes trying to choke or armbar. Chain punch when they are at arms distance, elbow and forearm shiver when they are too close to punch. When they lean forward to choke the litterly run into your punch/elbow. The harder they try to hurt you, the harder they come into you the more they get hurt. Wing Chun concept still does not change here. Your taking their inertia, force, weight, mass, and strength and using it to hurt them.

From a mount position.
Your horse is none existent, when someone is at a mount position on you.
You have very little mobility so many of the punches arn't realistic. You can only punch with your arm muscle. You have no footwork and horse to generate power.
Kicking isn't really possible.
ect...

My "horse" stance is nonexistant, but my body is still able to move. using your feet planted on the ground behind them you can still pivot your body side to side, foot plant and roll using your hips that are under him to roll, keep moving the entire lower body while keeping your hands at guard. If you can produce power from a 6-1 inch punch, why not while on the ground? Plus, punching is not all you have to work with, in mount the groin, inside of the theigh lower stomach, all are more accessable. Chain punch there. You also have Chi, use it. Use their chi/force/momentum against them.
When the strike, re-direct like you do standing up, at the same time torque your entire lower body to take advantage of the foreward force they've given you and roll them off. When you do, the groin is all yours, your between their legs now.

 

[Rook]

What I mean by "commit", is that when your punching your not leaning and throwing your body weight into the punches. The arm is like the head of a battering ram reinforced by your entire body moving forward, keeping the body straight and relaxed at the same time. This allows you to flow with where your opponent moves at an instant. Different than say a boxer, karate, etc, that uses muscle and strength to "throw" their body into the strike. Thus, leaning and becoming "top heavy".

The body shouldn't be thown into the strike. This is a beginers mistake in any striking system. The whole-body striking in karate and boxing ussually means the opposite of arm punching, where the hips movement provides the main force.

We keep totally relaxed with our hands and arms until the very moment of impact, then we tense for the strike. This way you can flow with your opponent, feeling and re-directing your opponent. I am not "committed" to any movement until I feel pressure, or contact from my opponent.

Ok.

Your concept and approach stay the same. If you shift your body weight on a wrestler or grappler you set yourself up for what they are planning.

If you don't shift your position their momentum will carry you to the floor.

You relax the body, do not give reistance of physical muscling and strength. You tense up that's what they want, it's eaiser to manipulate the joint the more you resist.

This part is true.

Chain punching is very effective on your back, remember the opponent is applying force upon YOU. They are leaning into your strikes trying to choke or armbar.

How are they leaning into your strikes?

Chain punch when they are at arms distance, elbow and forearm shiver when they are too close to punch. When they lean forward to choke the litterly run into your punch/elbow. The harder they try to hurt you, the harder they come into you the more they get hurt. Wing Chun concept still does not change here. Your taking their inertia, force, weight, mass, and strength and using it to hurt them.

You do realize that if anyone who your size or larger is mounted on you, you won't be able to reach above their shoulder unless they move down to choke you? Try having someone sit on your chest and then reach up to see the disparity in reach.

My "horse" stance is nonexistant, but my body is still able to move. using your feet planted on the ground behind them you can still pivot your body side to side, foot plant and roll using your hips that are under him to roll, keep moving the entire lower body while keeping your hands at guard.

This is fundamental grappling technique.

If you can produce power from a 6-1 inch punch, why not while on the ground?

The 6 inch and one inch punch rely on your body acting in unison. The person sitting on you segments your body, preventing you from using the whole body as one.

Plus, punching is not all you have to work with, in mount the groin, inside of the theigh lower stomach, all are more accessable.

See above about being able to punch with power from bottom mount.

When a grappler is mounted, his groin should not be exposed. You would have to reach under him to get to the testicles. The inside of the leg can take alot of damage, as can the stomach.

Chain punch there. You also have Chi, use it. Use their chi/force/momentum against them.
When the strike, re-direct like you do standing up, at the same time torque your entire lower body to take advantage of the foreward force they've given you and roll them off. When you do, the groin is all yours, your between their legs now.

Most people don't overcommit to the point that they are easy to roll off when striking. If you can roll him over, you will be, as suggested, in his guard. The groin is protected by the grapplers ability to swiftly transition to a triange or armbar if you take one arm out of guard and leave the other in - and when his position shifts to the armbar, the groin will be out of reach.

 

[monji112000]

What I mean by "commit", is that when your punching your not leaning and throwing your body weight into the punches. The arm is like the head of a battering ram reinforced by your entire body moving forward, keeping the body straight and relaxed at the same time. This allows you to flow with where your opponent moves at an instant. Different than say a boxer, karate, etc, that uses muscle and strength to "throw" their body into the strike. Thus, leaning and becoming "top heavy".

Well yes and NO. A good boxer uses his body weight yes, but also a great deal of mechanics not “muscling the person”. Sure some people do use less mechanics.. but a good western/thai boxer uses a great deal of body mechanics. A karate punch is delivered with body mechanics also..
Wing Chun has more than one way of applying power. Its sounds like you are talking about “crashing” power or impact power. But, when you turn your horse and strike from a short distance you have no impact you are relying on your body mechanics. Its actually very similar to a Karate or Western boxing cross. Its not the SAME, but most of the theory is VERY VERY SIMILAR. Karate and Wing Chun use the heel as a foundation and push off from the ground. A Western Boxer will use his balls on his feet rotate more. This causes more power initially, but is much slower.
We (Wing Chun) have punch that we throw our whole body. I don't know if you or your lineage practices these types of punches but they are in the style.

We keep totally relaxed with our hands and arms until the very moment of impact, then we tense for the strike. This way you can flow with your opponent, feeling and re-directing your opponent. I am not "committed" to any movement until I feel pressure, or contact from my opponent.

Yah everyone punches that way. EVERY GOOD STRIKER hits relaxed then tenses at the last moment.

Your concept and approach stay the same. If you shift your body weight on a wrestler or grappler you set yourself up for what they are planning. You relax the body, do not give reistance of physical muscling and strength. You tense up that's what they want, it's eaiser to manipulate the joint the more you resist.

OK I won't argue how to properly fight on the ground, but I will make a point to say that you MUST shift your weight to fight standing up. Are you saying never to turn your horse?

Chain punching is very effective on your back, remember the opponent is applying force upon YOU. They are leaning into your strikes trying to choke or armbar.

Actually this is a common misconception. 9 out of ten times someone is going to 1. Grab you with one hand 2. Make a large amount of distance and then strike very hard. If you have someone smothering you, sure a quick chain punch to his face for a second would work well. He will back up for a second, that will give you time to maybe get out from under him. Thats about it.
The other problem with JUST chain punching is that you arn't covering. He is pulling back and hitting you with everything he has and you MUST COVER.
If you tell me that you are going to only chain punch when he is press against you trying to do some type of submission..
1. you have no distance to pull your punches back so no power
2. he will be expecting you to punch.


Use your head, you can't just blindly copy and paste things to the ground.


CHI ? Ok you can use your Chi.... whatever works for you.
Punching from a small distance isn't about the arm. Its about your horse, your body mechanics of the shoulder ect.. How you turn and use the ground as your power. On your back you have NO HORSE. No power can be generated from a none-existent horse. You have only a small amount of motion from twisting, and your arm muscle thats it. SURE if he lifts up to throw a big punch, and then lands into a punch you have extend.. that will be impact power.. but again you have to cover to protect your self.
Yah you have many things to work with.. but hey if he is smothering me I can bite, jab him with my finger in his eyes ect.. but I am not a ground fighter. But I was under the impression you were talking about using Wing Chun.
Its best to train with people who do this type of fighting if you want to be competent in that area. Again keep a open mind. I am not saying that Wing Chun has any deficiencies, or that you can't apply what you know to defeat someone who takes you to the ground.. just use your head.

 

[Jade Tigress]

Mod Note

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Pamela Piszczek
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[Si-Je]

Ok, I've had a hard time describing and explaining these techniques. It's like writing a book really, and I'm not an author.

Punching and re-directing While standing.
1. We do NOT call basic stance a horse stance. It is only shoulder width apart, the toes and knees are turned in, hips up and forward, back straight.

2. When punching we utilize the spine in unison with the punch, not the arms, not like a boxing cross punch. The only way they may be similar is because they are straight punches. a boxer jabs and retracts, we do not retract, you punch "through" the target, not tap it like a boxer. Chain punching power comes from the spine, speed, and your ENTIRE body weight as you step forward into the target still chain punching. I have generated much power this way, and yes, the basic stance reinforces that power by bringing your body weight and mass behind the punching.

3. Chi Sau - Done properly standing is a great sensitivity drill, you can apply chi sau to fighting. as soon as you have contact with the opponent your sensitivity leads you were to strike. Maybe schools don't teach the practical applications of chi sau, I don't know, but we do. We use sensitivity in spontaneous drills and attacks in class to get used to surprise, and to learn to deflect and adapt. I really don't understand why people have no faith in chi sau as a practical application, It has improved my reaction time, muscle memory, and made it possible for me to respond very effectively to attack in sparring.

These concepts on the ground.

1. Wing Chun basic stance (your horse) is used to keep the opponent from getting between your theighs. You keep your knees pointed inward, touching even, as the grappler trys to get between your legs to choke or strike. Your feet are up under their arms, head, or shoulders. (This allows you to "roll" them over pretty easily). Now, wait. The stance keeps the distance between you and the grappler. I've had grapplers try to pry my legs apart with BOTH hands and they have always failed, wasting time and effort, allowing me time to roll them over to strike. Now, as they lean forward into your closed knees to try to choke, armbar, or strike their weight is either grounded at your butt or forward as they try a technique. They cannot get the right angle for an armbar because they are too far away from you, you can strike them as the lunge forward to sktrike, choke, or try to armbar. And "cover" from their strikes quite effortlessly.

2. Striking from your back. Chain punching, like I said eariler is NOT all you have to offer on your back. You can chop, elbow, forearm shiver, eye gouge, palm strike, bit, etc. Now, as a grappler trys to get into my "guard" which would be #1 above. They have to lean forward. We keep our hands up at ready position as we do when standing, Wing Chun wo sau. Simply make a fist with the front hand as they lunge forward. Pow, a strike, follow up with chain punching, and move your feet under their armpits, at their head, shoulders, whatever, and roll them in the direction they are striking at you. I assure you, they will lose ballance and go right over, allowing you to get off your back. If this doesn't work, kick the hips pushing them back from you, putting them in range to be kicked in the face, again allowing you to get up off your back. Most of your power from striking on the ground still comes from your spine, structure, and your opponents force. The harder and more aggressive they come into you the harder they get hit. Especially if they are tense. All very basic wing chun concepts.
3. Chi Sau on the ground- We utilize chi sau on our backs as the grappler "rains down with bombs" their striking can all be deflected with Dai sau, pac sau, etc, and you use chi sau (because the distance is so close this works perfectly) to re-direct their force to roll them off you. You don't lay there all day doing chi sau. You get your moment, take it, and shift with their force to get up while you follow through with a barrage of chain punches to add to their chaos.
ex. a persons mounting me and throws a hook punch, I deflect using Dai sau, then flow to bong sau and feed their arm through where it was origionally going in the first place. I don't BLOCK and stop the strike, I feed it on through, therefore shifting his weight either to the right or the left and use my legs, body and arms all to roll him off while punching the entire time, following the opponent until I'm on top constantly striking. That's what I mean about using chi sau. you only use chi sau for a moment, to give you the position you need to end the fight. chi sau is a tool, that I feel is not being taught, understood, or used properly. you don't hammer a nail in with a screwdriver. And you don't use chi sau when lat sau, chain punching, kicking, elbows, etc is needed more.

These concepts are understood more when in actual practice. You should try these techniques with a school that understands the WT/WC ground fighting. When you FEEL these concepts in action you'll understand much easier what is going on. Reading and videos will show you some mechanics, but like anything elese in WC you must feel it to understand it. It would be like me trying to explain foreward force, chi, or even chi sau (which I attempted a little lol!) in writing. It's not the same at all until you actually do and feel it.

 

[Si-Je]

Good example.
We went to a BJJ seminar and took one of our best students. He's an excellent martial artist, very fit and young. He has one arm. Every single BJJ technique requires both arms, so none were effective for him at all.

We showed him the anti-grappling techniques for his body type and he was able to keep his partner from choking, armbaring, or striking him. He used these techniques against BJJ and was highly effective, much to the confusion of his partner.

He chain punched with one arm (augmented for his body type) he forearm shivered, used bong sau to re-direct his partner and thus his entire body to roll into a side mount position to strike the opponent and get off the ground.

We do NOT stay on the ground, the whole idea is to get back up ASAP, and finish the attacker, to be ready for a possible next attacker. Hence, the term, "anti-grappling". You don't stay on the ground with the opponent, your goal is to get UP.

 

[Si-Je]

Si-Je,

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...rappling&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title


Grappling doesn't equal grabbing the opponent. I have seen many “grapplers” Ground and pound and even BJJ fighters punch and kick from the ground. This is even when someone is trying to do a submission. Its not so simple to say I punch you “grab”.

You can call your “style” anti-grappling but thats not to say its Wing Chun. It isn't, thats a simple fact. Maybe its “your Wing Chun”.

As Ram said it is “grappling” or wrestling, you fail to see that ideas are not limited to one group of people/style. When you use a idea like redirecting, or jamming or covering you can apply it on many levels in many ways. You can apply it with two knifes in your hand or in a Chess game.. Its Wing Chun ideas, used in a different environment.

Anyone can create a wrestling or anti-grappling style(doesn't mean it works), but to be able to take Wing Chun theory and then apply it in a new arena takes allot. It takes a person to master Wing Chun (you won't find many people that have), then learn how to grapple, and then start to find similar ideas and new ways to use his ideas.

Much like a artist who creates a new “method” of art.

Honestly I have seen the “ant-grappling” by the “wing chun masters". LOL its really just really bad. I am not BJJ master but honestly. FIRST LEARN WING CHUN! .

anti-grappling is not a "style" it is part of a style. an addition to WT. The creater of this addition was a Master of WT, learned BJJ, and Turkish wrestling. He didn't just wake up one morning an say, "gee, I'll create something new." He studied the other styles, and found a way to counter them. This took much work, training, testing, etc.

I hate it when you guys use the stupid rabbit punches and claim that its Wing Chun...if you are standing or on the ground.. no power exists from punches used in that way. They are very easy to counter and they are only a drop in the bucket when it comes to punches used in wing chun.
.

This has not been the case for me. I've seen how other schools use chain punching and I agree some of it has no power. But, these "stupid rabbit punches" you speak of are either from those who aren't doing technique correctly, or from your ignorance of WC chain punches. When I chain punch I've generated enough power to physically move my partner back (who's 6'4" 200lbs) holding the body bag.
I still think it's funny that so many people think that they can be hit repeatedly in the face and not have any affect. Maybe we are desensitized in the States. But hitting people in the face will hurt, and this is not the movies.

Chain punches are great some times. You have to learn how and why to use a tool.
.

I agree!

I am 100% positive that if you really learn the theory and the drills that Ip man passed down. Then think about the ideas behind them. THEN start to train with people who are good at ground fighting, you will find what you are looking for.

Again, this has been done. WT is made to change and evolve. Many schools don't want to do this, they stay with the old and don't try the new. Bruce Lee changed WC, anti-grappling is a new concept for many people who don't want to accept it as Wing Chun concept. This is very unfortunate, for them. I am still relatively new to WC, but my openness has allowed me to be more accepting of new ideas, and techniques, and to reconize it's weaknesses. Thus, I have learned much from my teacher. Who's teacher was both Fung and Emin. He's taken two different styles of WT/WC and combined them.

I've very happy about this, because it just makes better wing chun. Most in the art won't share and combine their skills, their too busy fussing, arguing, declaring who's the best, and critizising to stop and learn something from eachother. Real bummer, dude.
Like kids in a playground, their missing out on something better than ego, who's right, who's better, which style is "pure", etc. Both of my teachers teachers come directly from Yip Man. Fung we're third generation from Yip man, and same on Ling Ting side. Pretty good "lineage". lol!
the whole lineage thing always make me feel like I'm a thurobred horse or something! lol!
Relax peoples! and learn to be open to try new stuff. look at it on video all you want, but don't make up your mind before you try it. You'll miss out.

 

[Si-Je]

No power with punching and striking? you should tell her that. lol!
This is a pretty good video. One of my favs, it's really hard to find women doing WT online.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&n=2&videoID=1223494642

 

[Rook]

Ok, I've had a hard time describing and explaining these techniques. It's like writing a book really, and I'm not an author.

Punching and re-directing While standing.
1. We do NOT call basic stance a horse stance. It is only shoulder width apart, the toes and knees are turned in, hips up and forward, back straight.

Ok.

2. When punching we utilize the spine in unison with the punch, not the arms, not like a boxing cross punch. The only way they may be similar is because they are straight punches. a boxer jabs and retracts, we do not retract, you punch "through" the target, not tap it like a boxer.

Everyone punches through the target. It is probably the single most fundamental rule of striking in any striking art on earth.

Chain punching power comes from the spine, speed, and your ENTIRE body weight as you step forward into the target still chain punching. I have generated much power this way, and yes, the basic stance reinforces that power by bringing your body weight and mass behind the punching.

Ok.

3. Chi Sau - Done properly standing is a great sensitivity drill, you can apply chi sau to fighting. as soon as you have contact with the opponent your sensitivity leads you were to strike. Maybe schools don't teach the practical applications of chi sau, I don't know, but we do. We use sensitivity in spontaneous drills and attacks in class to get used to surprise, and to learn to deflect and adapt. I really don't understand why people have no faith in chi sau as a practical application, It has improved my reaction time, muscle memory, and made it possible for me to respond very effectively to attack in sparring.

Most people won't play along enough to allow people to use it.

These concepts on the ground.

1. Wing Chun basic stance (your horse) is used to keep the opponent from getting between your theighs. You keep your knees pointed inward, touching even, as the grappler trys to get between your legs to choke or strike.

The grappler absolutely does NOT want to be between your legs. You want to get him there to keep him from getting side control, NS or full mount. Any grappler will do his utmosts NOT to be caught between your legs.

Your feet are up under their arms, head, or shoulders. (This allows you to "roll" them over pretty easily). Now, wait. The stance keeps the distance between you and the grappler. I've had grapplers try to pry my legs apart with BOTH hands and they have always failed, wasting time and effort, allowing me time to roll them over to strike.

There is no way in heck that anyone would want to pry your legs apart in grappling. They want your legs together because it keeps you from applying guard. I can't believe that anyone, trained grappler or not would be trying to open the legs - they should want them together.

Now, as they lean forward into your closed knees to try to choke, armbar, or strike their weight is either grounded at your butt or forward as they try a technique. They cannot get the right angle for an armbar because they are too far away from you, you can strike them as the lunge forward to sktrike, choke, or try to armbar. And "cover" from their strikes quite effortlessly.

No one in his right mind will lean over over the closed knees if he doesn't have to. He will try to move around to side control. Even if he can't no one should be trying to get a submission from that position.

2. Striking from your back. Chain punching, like I said eariler is NOT all you have to offer on your back. You can chop, elbow, forearm shiver, eye gouge, palm strike, bit, etc. Now, as a grappler trys to get into my "guard" which would be #1 above. They have to lean forward.

They don't actually have to lean forward at all.

We keep our hands up at ready position as we do when standing, Wing Chun wo sau. Simply make a fist with the front hand as they lunge forward. Pow, a strike, follow up with chain punching, and move your feet under their armpits, at their head, shoulders, whatever, and roll them in the direction they are striking at you. I assure you, they will lose ballance and go right over, allowing you to get off your back. If this doesn't work, kick the hips pushing them back from you, putting them in range to be kicked in the face, again allowing you to get up off your back. Most of your power from striking on the ground still comes from your spine, structure, and your opponents force. The harder and more aggressive they come into you the harder they get hit. Especially if they are tense. All very basic wing chun concepts.

Have you ever actually tried this on a trained grappler?

3. Chi Sau on the ground- We utilize chi sau on our backs as the grappler "rains down with bombs" their striking can all be deflected with Dai sau, pac sau, etc, and you use chi sau (because the distance is so close this works perfectly) to re-direct their force to roll them off you. You don't lay there all day doing chi sau. You get your moment, take it, and shift with their force to get up while you follow through with a barrage of chain punches to add to their chaos.
ex. a persons mounting me and throws a hook punch, I deflect using Dai sau, then flow to bong sau and feed their arm through where it was origionally going in the first place. I don't BLOCK and stop the strike, I feed it on through, therefore shifting his weight either to the right or the left and use my legs, body and arms all to roll him off while punching the entire time, following the opponent until I'm on top constantly striking.

Thats actually what every single person either does or trys to do from bottom mount.

That's what I mean about using chi sau. you only use chi sau for a moment, to give you the position you need to end the fight. chi sau is a tool, that I feel is not being taught, understood, or used properly. you don't hammer a nail in with a screwdriver. And you don't use chi sau when lat sau, chain punching, kicking, elbows, etc is needed more.

These concepts are understood more when in actual practice. You should try these techniques with a school that understands the WT/WC ground fighting. When you FEEL these concepts in action you'll understand much easier what is going on. Reading and videos will show you some mechanics, but like anything elese in WC you must feel it to understand it. It would be like me trying to explain foreward force, chi, or even chi sau (which I attempted a little lol!) in writing. It's not the same at all until you actually do and feel it.

Hmm.

 

[Rook]

Good example.
We went to a BJJ seminar and took one of our best students. He's an excellent martial artist, very fit and young. He has one arm. Every single BJJ technique requires both arms, so none were effective for him at all.

They require modification. I have grappled with seniors with one half and missing one complete - most of the techniques are still possible.

We showed him the anti-grappling techniques for his body type and he was able to keep his partner from choking, armbaring, or striking him. He used these techniques against BJJ and was highly effective, much to the confusion of his partner.

How trained was his partener?

He chain punched with one arm (augmented for his body type) he forearm shivered, used bong sau to re-direct his partner and thus his entire body to roll into a side mount position to strike the opponent and get off the ground.

We do NOT stay on the ground, the whole idea is to get back up ASAP, and finish the attacker, to be ready for a possible next attacker. Hence, the term, "anti-grappling". You don't stay on the ground with the opponent, your goal is to get UP.

Getting up is a common goal.