Anti-Grappling Demos

[Odin]

:ultracool BJJ and submission does fit the streets, The only people who will say this will be the disciples of this art. Can anyone tell me here how many times BJJ were used out of a ring?. Even if you are skilled, you cannot use it against many fighters . Whenever people watches Anti-grappling and they are training BJJ. they would say: oh, they don't grapple for real. Hey guys . Have you ever saw any grappler in the UFC, have you seen how they grapple. they are completely exposed to being hit in their neck, but they know that rules will not permit their opponents to do this since it's prohibited. In a real fight, a grappler does not stand a chance most of the time against any striker with good attacks. We personally have in the EWTO instructors with Jujitsu and grappling background, and most were not trainers of the arts, they were instructors. they say that these arts are good to a certain degree to learn, but once to consider it everything, it starts to make no sence . Royce Gracie himself crossed-train in MMA after realizing that grappling is not everything about fighting. you must be a well rounded fighter for all situations. I hope this makes the point clear.

Royce also traveled around Dojo's all round the world to prove that jujitsu works in any situation...many a time was his neck expose, he was forced to train striking after the art the gracies created started to leave them behind...... the fact is that sometimes all these moves that TMA arts give all the faith in dont actually work aswel as they might think.
Ive always said to be good at fighting you have to fight, and as you do you learn what really works and what doesnt.
its really frustrating for a fighter to be told by someone that doesnt fight how to fight...it makes no sense.

 

[Street Brawler]

Royce also traveled around Dojo's all round the world to prove that jujitsu works in any situation...many a time was his neck expose, he was forced to train striking after the art the gracies created started to leave them behind...... the fact is that sometimes all these moves that TMA arts give all the faith in dont actually work aswel as they might think.
Ive always said to be good at fighting you have to fight, and as you do you learn what really works and what doesnt.
its really frustrating for a fighter to be told by someone that doesnt fight how to fight...it makes no sense.

Lets me put something clear in the view:ultracool . The Gracies challenged people according to their rules, and did not challenged people travelling around. People used to come to Royce's Dojo fighitng him with Rorion talking about the techniques used in BJJ. these challenges were more about introducing their art to the people. Now the other fact about them is the Gracies only taped their victories. They always had a problem with the Walid Ismail issue. Walid is another BJJ trainer from the Carlson Gracie side. they only wanted to show that BJJ is totally their creation, rather than their father's and uncle. that's doesn't concern us, but I said it to show you that they were not loyal about taping these matches, they may have lost to some other fighters, but who knows?.

This is off topic, but still these matches are nothing reality where everything is to their favor. a nice soft mat and a gi:ultracool . Regarding his neck exposed. Let me remind you a something pal. Do you remember a fight taped between Royce gracie and a latino animal kungfu expert called "Jason De lucia". Royce already defeated this guy in UFC. This guy wanted a rematch and lost again. what I can remember is that at this rematch, Jason was able to have his hands around Royce neck in the first of the fight, but guess what. he couldn't crack it becuase it would kill his opponent. This means time was given to Royce to do something else like punching until Jason left his hands then Royce submitted him.

Now Wing Chun was made for no time. It is made to finish any situation in the fastest time possible. Anti-grappling is a well made program which finish ground situations to be able to go up again, not to go down like grapplers do!. I mean logically, it is more practical for a REAL fight. I am highlighting real again and again in this thread:whip1: .

Regarding that TMA techniques do not work as you said. What techniques pal, can you tell me some of them?, becuase I didn't get this point:ultracool .

All the best.

 

[Marvin]

I watched the first video, and from what I saw the guy that was closing, did not know what he was doing. First of all, the instructor was telling him how to close the distance. And when he did he closed incorrectly. On the 1st entry around 1:25 bad head position and the 2nd around 1:45 no level change he just bends over and grabs the legs, very bad form.
Another problem with the demo is what I call “static/dynamic” problem. The “defender” gets to be dynamic, but the “attacker”, once he does his technique, he has to freeze and let the “defender” go to work on him.
The problem as to grapplers aren’t used to getting is an assumption (hopeful) from people who have never taken an honest look at their own training or a “grapplers” training.
And another problem is that this is a “friendly discussion forum” an invite to come and show what you are talking about, gets perceived as a “challenge match”.
So, I invite all of you who believe that anti-grappling works, to go find a local freestyle club or actually, a Greco-Roman wrestling club would be better. State your intentions and see what the outcome is. Most of those guys and gals love to workout and look forward to any opportunity to train. That is what I did. I doubt if anyone will do it, but if you do give me an e-mail or call my club. I’m sure we probably will have had the same experience and I would love to chat about it!

 

[Street Brawler]

I watched the first video, and from what I saw the guy that was closing, did not know what he was doing. First of all, the instructor was telling him how to close the distance. And when he did he closed incorrectly. On the 1st entry around 1:25 bad head position and the 2nd around 1:45 no level change he just bends over and grabs the legs, very bad form.
Another problem with the demo is what I call “static/dynamic” problem. The “defender” gets to be dynamic, but the “attacker”, once he does his technique, he has to freeze and let the “defender” go to work on him.
The problem as to grapplers aren’t used to getting is an assumption (hopeful) from people who have never taken an honest look at their own training or a “grapplers” training.
And another problem is that this is a “friendly discussion forum” an invite to come and show what you are talking about, gets perceived as a “challenge match”.
So, I invite all of you who believe that anti-grappling works, to go find a local freestyle club or actually, a Greco-Roman wrestling club would be better. State your intentions and see what the outcome is. Most of those guys and gals love to workout and look forward to any opportunity to train. That is what I did. I doubt if anyone will do it, but if you do give me an e-mail or call my club. I’m sure we probably will have had the same experience and I would love to chat about it!

We are talking about techniques, not challenges. I mean in a real fight pal:ultracool , you will use Greco Roman stuff!, I don't think so . I think you are mixing stuff between what is useful for a real fight, and what is useful for a competition. I mentioned before that submission fighting is better than Anti-grapplling in a UFC or in a challenge, and I prersoanlly like Frank Shamrock stuff in those Avioding takedowns demos he showed. Coming to real fight is different Marvin. It is not that place you tell your friend lets fight and see what works ans what will happen. it is where you must use fast techniques that ends the brawl. Do you think I would go to a wrestling club and ask them for the brawl then :ultracool . I cannot punch, nor mobilize my moves the way I want. I will only be able to grab, and this will make me useless:ultracool .

Anti-grappling is not a submitting ground-fighting. If I go down. I will punch and strike, rather than choke and submit.

A question Marvin, what do you know about Wing Chun? , can you tell me some?.

 

[Andrew Green]

Why choke someone out who's seriously trying to hurt you when you can break their neck in a second? or knock them out cold and end the conversation?

I've wanted to learn to break necke in a second, I just have a hard time finding volunteers willing to let me try...

And a good Greco-Roman guy would have very little trouble dropping a untrained guy hard on his head from a clinch. Which I imagine has a better shot of seriously injuring someone then most of the stuff shown in the video.

As this video shows it, anti-grappling is being used to defend against guys with very poor grappling skills that lack intention in there attacks. Which, IMO, makes the term rather misleading and marketing driven.

And it is a reinvention of the wheel without a understanding of how wheels really work. Wrestlers and Judo fighters have been avoiding takedowns for many years. And they have been avoiding takedowns from people that know how to do them. Yet anti-grappling is nothing like the takedown defence used by people that really understand takedowns, why is that?

 

[Ram]

I love how street brawler keeps saying

I mean in a real fight pal:ultracool

LoL. I gave some examples of grappling in a "real fight". All you have to do is train some grappling to get decent at it and you will become a better anti-grappler than these anti-grappling demos can show you.Take a month or two of classes at the local judo or jujitsu club and you will see what I mean.

p.s. In a real fight a hidden .357 snub nose revolver will end a fight a lot quicker and with far less training than any martial art. :shooter:

 

[Odin]

We are talking about techniques, not challenges. I mean in a real fight pal:ultracool , you will use Greco Roman stuff!, I don't think so . I think you are mixing stuff between what is useful for a real fight, and what is useful for a competition. I mentioned before that submission fighting is better than Anti-grapplling in a UFC or in a challenge, and I prersoanlly like Frank Shamrock stuff in those Avioding takedowns demos he showed. Coming to real fight is different Marvin. It is not that place you tell your friend lets fight and see what works ans what will happen. it is where you must use fast techniques that ends the brawl. Do you think I would go to a wrestling club and ask them for the brawl then :ultracool . I cannot punch, nor mobilize my moves the way I want. I will only be able to grab, and this will make me useless:ultracool .

Anti-grappling is not a submitting ground-fighting. If I go down. I will punch and strike, rather than choke and submit.

A question Marvin, what do you know about Wing Chun? , can you tell me some?.

I think you are mixing stuff between what is useful for a real fight, and what is useful for a competition

that one line is something I have heard a lot on this forum and to be honest really winds me up, my only assumption of the people that make this statement would be that them themselves have not actually had any fights nor have an idea of what real fights are like.....(im not talking the demo's you do in your class)
Why would MMA just be about ground work???why would grapperling only be about submissions???You ever heard the saying position before submission?
The more you know about grapperling the more you can defend against a grapple..any kind of grapple..whether it be a grappler from Rich Franklin or a grappler from a fat guy outside a club you will always be able to to come off on top if you know what your doing, grabbing your opponent is the second most commonly used tactic used in a street fight!....and unlike most other arts when you defend these thing you do so with someone who really wants to take you down not someone that is going to ask you ''are you ready?'' four times before attempting the move only to then wait for you to do the correct response,you will have someone that will twist and turn and move they're hands all over your face and funny enough try to take you down as if his life depended on it... I notices aswel in those videos that there wasn't any 'plan b'? this is another thing that confuses me, these TMA techniques don't seem to have any back up plans you know just in case the move you just did didn't work out how you thought it would, ask any good fight in the world no matter what the sport and they'll have a plan a b c d and e for every move they do.....actual fighting leaves far to many variables for only one technique to work.

Like I keep saying it really really really annoys me that people that don't actually fight try and tell fighters how to fight..how the hell are you going to try and tell people like chuck Liddell and wanderlei Silva they're MMA is only good for compitions and wouldn't actually work in a street fight?how mad is that??

and more to the point if these 'anti-grapples' actually work we would see them in the octagon, these fighters come from all kinds of different backgrounds and all integrate what they have learnt before someone by know would have tried to defend a takedown with a wing chun 'anti-grappler' they would all be doing them now.

 

[Marvin]

Hi Street Brawler, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. I broke your post up so I could address each point in turn.

We are talking about techniques, not challenges. I mean in a real fight pal:ultracool , you will use Greco Roman stuff!, I don't think so .

I think you are mixing stuff between what is useful for a real fight, and what is useful for a competition.

Here is the one of the main problems we have with the comparison to begin with, the concept the delivery system transcend the event. What I mean by that is that a single leg, under hook, jab etc. if done correctly will work regardless of the "venue" ring street practice, whatever. That is not to say they will work every time. Fights, street or ring, are messy, chaotic affairs

I mentioned before that submission fighting is better than Anti-grapplling in a UFC or in a challenge, and I prersoanlly like Frank Shamrock stuff in those Avioding takedowns demos he showed.

I have never seen Frank's stuff, so I can't comment.

Coming to real fight is different Marvin. It is not that place you tell your friend lets fight and see what works ans what will happen. it is where you must use fast techniques that ends the brawl.

Street Brawler, unfortunately I am fully aware of the difference between a street fight and sporting event. I don't really care to talk about my "street fight" experiences in public, but if you send a PM to either Rich Parsons or Tusilan, both are highly regarded members of this forum, either one of them will be able to a give you a no BS answer to any question you have about me or my experiences. If that is unsatisfactory, e-mail me directly. I prefer to talk about training methods instead of anticdotal (sp?) experiences.

Do you think I would go to a wrestling club and ask them for the brawl then :ultracool . I cannot punch, nor mobilize my moves the way I want. I will only be able to grab, and this will make me useless:ultracool .

I don’t expect you to grab or wrestle; I want you to do your thing. Let me give you my story of when I went to the wrestling club. I had a similar line of thought as you do now. So I went to the club and told them what I wanted to do. I said that I wanted to see if I could use my skills as a martial artist to keep from being taken down. I offered to wear boxing gloves and foot pads so I would not hurt the other guys. The guys said no need to for that as they were curious as well, and they thought the gloves might give them an unfair advantage. Well, long story short, I couldn’t do anything except get dumped on my bean.
Another story, I was a seminar with a Greco/ Roman wrestler, who has since gone on to make quite a name for himself in MMA. After we warmed up, he lined everyone up at the seminar and told us what technique he was going to use to take us down, and he said we could do anything we thought of to stop him. Not one of us at the seminar could stop him from taking us down let alone give him enough game to change the technique he used to take us down.
The problems with these stories are that they are just that, stories. Anyone reading them could just say "O, those guys just have never run into a real (insert martial art here) expert/master.

Anti-grappling is not a submitting ground-fighting. If I go down. I will punch and strike, rather than choke and submit.

Not if you are so overwhelmed that you can barely think let alone punch. Again I encourage you to do what I did. I’m sure you may be able to sacrifice some of the lethality of your techniques, for the sake of your own personal knowledge? Find out for yourself, if your stuff works I will be the first one asking you for help

A question Marvin, what do you know about Wing Chun? , can you tell me some?.

Sure, I know some, what would you like to know?
But, after I answer I expect you to share your knowledge of grappling, fair enough?

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

I agree that grappling has very valid combat applications, specially in the control area.

I also agree that against experienced grapplers the anti grappling wouldn't look as good as trained in the demos seen. Most of the attempts didn't seem very commited.

This is necessary for training. Yet if you're trained, stopping a commited attack should be demoed.

This means that against somebody that really wanted you down, not every time the anti grappler would gain positional advantage... i.e. he would get slammed or taken down.

Valid methods are displayed, yet the experienced grappler has thought of many of them, and has counter-measures.

Yet in the positioning and movements of the anti grappler, I didn't see many structural counter-measures for the attacks of expereinced grapplers (who rarely have just one option in their attack patterns).

For example, several times I saw the anti grappler get held and ready to be taken down, while hitting, so the grappler didn't concentrate completely on lifting, yet he was stepping back. If you lower your stance while pushing the hip forward, it would make it harder to be takend down and the hits would be more effective.

The grappler could've just gone for a single leg and run through the guy and down he would go.

Unfortunately, it shows that more improvement is needed, yet they are getting the idea.

So an evolution of this would be to counter how an experienced grappler attacks... with several options at a time, while engaging with a structure and strategy that has into account those common strategies.

Does that make sense?

On another point. It is widely acknoleged that you fight as you train.

Thus if all your repertoire is sport oriented, you will tend to fight as such.

Combat/Self preservation oriented tools are different in several aspects, and have built into them an objectives/rules of engagement mechanism as to choose severity of response (if you have good, complete training!).

Sometimes, the severity setting is set on "kill", instead of "stun". For self preservation it should be set to "survive".

In sports, it is set to "win" and "dominate", which in terms of situational awareness and survival is not always useful. Yet in many fight type situation it is set that way for competitors.

This also applies for the uses in law enforcement.

So that is the main problem in my view.

This reminds of a story.

Antonio Illustrisimo was a very respected escrimador (filipino MA). There was once a tournament in which many figters came to hit each other with sticks and such for competition.

Someone challenged the Illustrisimo clan and he said that he fights with swords and he will kill the challenger. His escrima is for killing, and the competition will be used as a false gauge of what would happen for real.

I'm not completely in agreement with him, yet you get the idea.

Enjoy!

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Si-Je]

I So, I invite all of you who believe that anti-grappling works, to go find a local freestyle club or actually, a Greco-Roman wrestling club would be better. I’m sure we probably will have had the same experience and I would love to chat about it!

Both of my instructors have done this on several occasions. One loves to compete and test technique, the other just had to prove to his son that BJJ grappling diddn''t work for the street and get him out of that class.

My Chief instructor has know soldiers that have used BJJ in combat and lost, broken hips, legs, etc falling down stairs, being attacked by multiple attackers and fighting urban warfar on concrete.

As for grapplers being trained to "take a punch", fine. Take it. and then take the next one, and the next one, and the next one, and then the elbow, knee, chop etc. Wing Chun doesn't stop until you stop moving. If you train to take a punch your training to lose. You can't "take" a punch repeadedly in the back of the neck, death or paralisis is a bummer duder.
Or what I call, "chain kicking" on the ground getting kicked full force in the face, neck, and head. Get real. It amazes me, and maybe it's an american thing, that people are soooo desensitized to violence that they see someone getting kicked in the temple (which can kill you. superfoot wallace once broke a mans neck in competition and with a return combo accidentially re set it. ouch! The man was parilized!) or punched repeatedly in the head, face and they think it doesn't hurt, or is not effecitve. I've been hit. Ouch. By very large men. Sure, I can take it, do I want to? Frag no! I don't have to prove that I'm tough enough to get my head beat in. And these grapplers getting hit by other striking forms are no where as efficient and devastating as the Wing Chun punching.
If my little 118lb weakling self can chain punch a 250lb floor punching bag and move that sucker all over the room doing so, I'm pretty sure I can hurt a large attacker with chain punching. (I can't even move the darn bag back to position I have to chain punch it back! lol!)

 

[barriecusvein]

why do chun students always feel the need to defend this anti grapple crap?

there was no anti grappling before grappling 'sprung to fame' during the early ufc's. since then, people have taken chun concepts and tried to apply them on the ground. to me, this is just stupid. if your going to strike on the ground then the most important thing is to have top position. i have never seen any video or other evidence of somone winning a fight by striking from the bottom. one of the main goals of wrestling is getting top position once your on the ground, so why not just incorporate wrestling moves into chun? wrestling has been about for so long its inconcievable that it could be bettered by some chunners in 13 years or so.

to those people who say 'if someone tries to take me down, im gonna knee him in the face and elbow the **** out of his spine'. have you ever tried to do this, or simulated it at least, against someone vaguely competant who seriously wants you on the deck? unless you are alienly fast, a takedown you dont know is coming is going to get to you before you react and bring up your knee. the chance for a knee really only comes from a botched take down attempt, or a slow telegraphed one. thats the grapplers mistake, not your skill giving you that strike. watch some ufc matches, and see how many take down attempts are foiled by knees to the head (which is a legal move).

the elbow to the spine, well you are only in range for this once the guy has grabbed you. once he has grabbed you he will lift your leg (or legs) off the ground. this means you only have the effective weight generated by your muscles in your strike (in the case of both legs lifted), or significantly reduced effective body weight (in the case of one leg lifted). both of which are much less than having your whole body weight behind it. although i have no experience on the recieving end of one of these strikes thrown at full power, i'm willing to bet that it won't cause the horrific damage you think it will.

the final problem with wing chun and anti grappling is that most people in my experiance just dont train with enough realism. you say you train for the street. how? by doing chi sau? come on, thats about as far removed from the street as possible. sparring is the best simulation of a real fight i know of, and the best training simulation is going to give you skills that are the most appropriate for the street. if you guys defending anti grappling do train with full resistance opponents and sparring then i take this point back.

o yeah, one other thing. 'chun was tested in the beimos and performed <insert greatly complimentary word here>'. fine, i'll believe you. but that was for the guys in the beimos, not you. you need to test it in the best way you can safely. i know thats not really the topic of this thread, but i wanted to say it anyway.

and for the record, i've been practicing wing chun for 2 years and really enjoy it.

 

[Ram]

My Chief instructor has know soldiers that have used BJJ in combat and lost, broken hips, legs, etc falling down stairs, being attacked by multiple attackers and fighting urban warfar on concrete.

LoL do you even know what grappling is about??????????? I mean just read the various posts here. Grappling is about not getting taken down if you don't want to be. If you do to gain a dominant position for strikes or bone breaks.
Soldiers train in strikes,weapons,and grappling if grappling did not work then it would be removed from their training. I remember reading a article about how soldiers used BBJ in combat

Owens said the Army system is similar to the mixed martial-arts techniques used in the Ultimate Fighting Championship or the Japanese Pacrease tournament. It’s proven itself in combat, he added.
“One of the instructors was in Afghanistan last year clearing buildings and a mujahedeen jumped on him. He had to get him off his back and he ended up breaking the guy’s arm,” Owens said.-Sgt. 1st Class Cliff Owens

 

[Si-Je]

if your going to strike on the ground then the most important thing is to have top position. i have never seen any video or other evidence of somone winning a fight by striking from the bottom.

--I have used striking from below. You do it until you can roll them off you and to keep them from putting you in submission or hitting you. And you won't see this on video. Because UFC won't go for it.

QUOTE "have you ever tried to do this, or simulated it at least, against someone vaguely competant who seriously wants you on the deck? unless you are alienly fast, a takedown you dont know is coming is going to get to you before you react and bring up your knee. the chance for a knee really only comes from a botched take down attempt, or a slow telegraphed one. thats the grapplers mistake, not your skill giving you that strike. watch some ufc matches, and see how many take down attempts are foiled by knees to the head (which is a legal move)."

--once again, Yes I have. And so have my teachers on many occasions. We have the BJJ grappler guys wear full face masks when we do this so we can kick and hit them without them losing teeth. They get the point when their head is thrown back. We can't elbow them in the spine or neck, that would be evil. They would be hurt far too much silly. But we can knee them in the face shield.

QUOTE: "the elbow to the spine, well you are only in range for this once the guy has grabbed you. once he has grabbed you he will lift your leg (or legs) off the ground. this means you only have the effective weight generated by your muscles in your strike (in the case of both legs lifted), or significantly reduced effective body weight (in the case of one leg lifted). both of which are much less than having your whole body weight behind it. although i have no experience on the recieving end of one of these strikes thrown at full power, i'm willing to bet that it won't cause the horrific damage you think it will."

--Ah, the total debate. can you throw me to the ground before I elbow your spine. Depends on so many factors, reaction time, who's faster, who has the better stance, technique, condition, whatever. We've all done it at my school, but we don't use the WC stance when a grappler comes in to grab legs.

and for the record, i've been practicing wing chun for 2 years and really enjoy it.

as for incorporating wrestling in WC. Use Suai Chai (can't spell it) chinese wrestling is pretty good stuff. or just WC concepts on the ground. That's all anti-grappling is. You do what you do standing up on the ground. very effective. works for me every time.

 

[Marvin]

Both of my instructors have done this on several occasions. One loves to compete and test technique, the other just had to prove to his son that BJJ grappling diddn''t work for the street and get him out of that class.

Your instructor went to his sons bjj class to challenge the instructor to show his son that bjj was not for the street?!?!?What did he show his son that did work on the street?

As for grapplers being trained to "take a punch", fine. Take it. and then take the next one, and the next one, and the next one, and then the elbow, knee, chop etc. Wing Chun doesn't stop until you stop moving. If you train to take a punch your training to lose. You can't "take" a punch repeadedly in the back of the neck, death or paralisis is a bummer duder.

I think someone has given you misinformation here, I know of no one who "trains to take a punch" punches happen in fights. If you are used to the presure then it doesn't suprise you whin it happens in the ring or the street. let me give you one example of how it is commonly trained, you will find this or somthing like it at most gyms. Boxer feeds shooter slow punchig combos, a simple jab/cross. if shooter is in a bad position she gets punched in the mellon. A few rounds of that and the shooter keeps her hand up, so she doedn't get punched in the face nearly as much. And as the shooter gets better the combos get faster and harder. understand? Plus and I keep coming back to this it is very hard to
continuously punch someone in the face as they are lvl changing on you.[/COLOR]

Or what I call, "chain kicking" on the ground getting kicked full force in the face, neck, and head. Get real. It amazes me, and maybe it's an american thing, that people are soooo desensitized to violence that they see someone getting kicked in the temple (which can kill you.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean after you get the grappler to the groun you will finish them off with a flurry of kicks?

superfoot wallace once broke a mans neck in competition and with a return combo accidentially re set it. ouch! The man was parilized!)

can you show me the article or email link about this story?

or punched repeatedly in the head, face and they think it doesn't hurt, or is not effecitve. I've been hit. Ouch. By very large men. Sure, I can take it, do I want to? Frag no! I don't have to prove that I'm tough enough to get my head beat in. And these grapplers getting hit by other striking forms are no where as efficient and devastating as the Wing Chun punching.

So what you are saying is tha NO grapplers have ever experienced fighting wing chun folks?

Si-Je I think you missed my point, have YOU experimented outside of your comfort zone? Have you verified your instructor&#8217;s claims? You are taking a lot of assumptions on blind faith. this may be presumptuous of me, but in your post you said

If my little 118lb weakling self can chain punch a 250lb floor punching bag and move that sucker all over the room doing so, I'm pretty sure I can hurt a large attacker with chain punching.

so you don't know if your techniques work or not? The big problem with you hitting the bag, as you know Im sure, is that a bag does not give honest feedback. Don't make the mistake of thinking you have unstoppable technique, just because someone told you it was. It is always dangerous to say " oh I would just, do this or this"

 

[Street Brawler]

I think you are mixing stuff between what is useful for a real fight, and what is useful for a competition

that one line is something I have heard a lot on this forum and to be honest really winds me up, my only assumption of the people that make this statement would be that them themselves have not actually had any fights nor have an idea of what real fights are like.....(im not talking the demo's you do in your class)
Why would MMA just be about ground work???why would grapperling only be about submissions???You ever heard the saying position before submission?
The more you know about grapperling the more you can defend against a grapple..any kind of grapple..whether it be a grappler from Rich Franklin or a grappler from a fat guy outside a club you will always be able to to come off on top if you know what your doing, grabbing your opponent is the second most commonly used tactic used in a street fight!....and unlike most other arts when you defend these thing you do so with someone who really wants to take you down not someone that is going to ask you ''are you ready?'' four times before attempting the move only to then wait for you to do the correct response,you will have someone that will twist and turn and move they're hands all over your face and funny enough try to take you down as if his life depended on it... I notices aswel in those videos that there wasn't any 'plan b'? this is another thing that confuses me, these TMA techniques don't seem to have any back up plans you know just in case the move you just did didn't work out how you thought it would, ask any good fight in the world no matter what the sport and they'll have a plan a b c d and e for every move they do.....actual fighting leaves far to many variables for only one technique to work.

Like I keep saying it really really really annoys me that people that don't actually fight try and tell fighters how to fight..how the hell are you going to try and tell people like chuck Liddell and wanderlei Silva they're MMA is only good for compitions and wouldn't actually work in a street fight?how mad is that??

and more to the point if these 'anti-grapples' actually work we would see them in the octagon, these fighters come from all kinds of different backgrounds and all integrate what they have learnt before someone by know would have tried to defend a takedown with a wing chun 'anti-grappler' they would all be doing them now.

Hey pal, Relax . Did I say I am a better fighter than Liddel and Silvia. NO man. I just said that grappling is not a complete fighitng strategy like most MMA fans think it is. Liddell, Ortiz, Shamrock, Fedor, and silvia are all MMA proffessioanl fighters. They are not only ground fighters Odin:whip1: . After all I have just spent most of my threads saying that Wing Chun was never made for an octagon fight. You people must know how other fighting systems work to judge certain stuff. Now you say that ground fighting is a second step fighting in a street fight. Odin my friend:mst: , I faught brawls, and It's all your business wheather you want to beleive it or not. These fights included grapplers that were useless as long as they cannot touch you. If you are a fast striker, no matter where you go and think, you are better than a grappler if you strike good. that's why grappling stuff was forgotten in fights and never been used until those Braziliazns braught it again, Why?. It is not becuase it was not there. Clinching and grappling were among fighitng arts in China, Japan and even in the Western world. It was not used in fights becuase it was useless against real striking:ultracool . So when the Gracies came back with it, people was not used to it, that's why they got dominated with it. Just after a while, it starts to lose again. Cesar Gracie was knocked out in 21 seconds by Shamrock. This shows how training in all fighitng ranges is important . I dont' say be just a boxer and you will win, and not a pure grappler, but be a well rounded fighter will all fighitng abilties.

Now Wing Chun is complete in all fighing ranges, and many instructors from all fighting arts started to join WT. The only problem exist in about WT is that it's a Chinese fighting systems, and westerners in general wouldn't like the idea of learning the Chinese sort of thing, rather than stick to their Wrestling stuff which is with all my respect, not the best choice used in a street fight. This is especially in the states, were you find BJJ has been popularized alot my the media sources in there. As to Europe, and especially Germany. Many fighing instructors joined WT. This includes fighters from Karate, Wrstling, Jujitsu, and Boxers.:ultracool

 

[Odin]

Hey pal, Relax . Did I say I am a better fighter than Liddel and Silvia. NO man. I just said that grappling is not a complete fighitng strategy like most MMA fans think it is. Liddell, Ortiz, Shamrock, Fedor, and silvia are all MMA proffessioanl fighters. They are not only ground fighters Odin:whip1: . After all I have just spent most of my threads saying that Wing Chun was never made for an octagon fight. You people must know how other fighting systems work to judge certain stuff. Now you say that ground fighting is a second step fighting in a street fight. Odin my friend:mst: , I faught brawls, and It's all your business wheather you want to beleive it or not. These fights included grapplers that were useless as long as they cannot touch you. If you are a fast striker, no matter where you go and think, you are better than a grappler if you strike good. that's why grappling stuff was forgotten in fights and never been used until those Braziliazns braught it again, Why?. It is not becuase it was not there. Clinching and grappling were among fighitng arts in China, Japan and even in the Western world. It was not used in fights becuase it was useless against real striking:ultracool . So when the Gracies came back with it, people was not used to it, that's why they got dominated with it. Just after a while, it starts to lose again. Cesar Gracie was knocked out in 21 seconds by Shamrock. This shows how training in all fighitng ranges is important . I dont' say be just a boxer and you will win, and not a pure grappler, but be a well rounded fighter will all fighitng abilties.

Now Wing Chun is complete in all fighing ranges, and many instructors from all fighting arts started to join WT. The only problem exist in about WT is that it's a Chinese fighting systems, and westerners in general wouldn't like the idea of learning the Chinese sort of thing, rather than stick to their Wrestling stuff which is with all my respect, not the best choice used in a street fight. This is especially in the states, were you find BJJ has been popularized alot my the media sources in there. As to Europe, and especially Germany. Many fighing instructors joined WT. This includes fighters from Karate, Wrstling, Jujitsu, and Boxers.:ultracool

''Hey pal, Relax

. Did I say I am a better fighter than Liddel and Silvia. NO man. I just said that grappling is not a complete fighting strategy like most MMA fans think it is. Liddell, Ortiz, Shamrock, Fedor, and silvia are all MMA professional fighters. They are not only ground fighters

Odin .''

????when did I way it was??that doesn't make sense what you just wrote,how can MMA's think that grapplering is a complete art when they don't just grapple ,they cross train??If they thought that all they needed to do was grapple why would they train muay thai and boxing???
I think you should go to an MMA website and actually check it out.
Try my club....http://www.londonshootfighters.com/Show.php..have a look.

Bro I train in mma I know this !!!its the rest of the martial arts world that doesn't seen to understand what MMA is,everytime its mentioned I hear the shouts of 'ground fighting doesn't work in the streets!!!'' like going to ground is the end all mma if it was it would be jujitsu not MMA!
ps I mentioned Liddel and silva to make a point since they are mainly strikers.

'' After all I have just spent most of my threads saying that Wing Chun was never made for an octagon fight. ''

It did actually check the tapes of the first UFC's wing chun fighters competed quite a lot at the beginning most where took down and submitted.

''You people must know how other fighting systems work to judge certain stuff.''

Hence why MMA's cross train boxing for hands,muay thai for kicks and knees wrestling for takedowns and jujitsu for ground work, different situation different style ( :

''Now you say that ground fighting is a second step fighting in a street fight. Odin my friend

, I fought brawls, and It's all your business whether you want to believe it or not. These fights included grapplers that were useless as long as they cannot touch you. If you are a fast striker, no matter where you go and think, you are better than a grappler if you strike good.''

I disagree with that,its all apples and oranges, if you are a good grappler you can take someone down without being hit,regardless of striking ability.

'' that's why grappling stuff was forgotten in fights and never been used until those Brazilians brought it again, Why?. It is not because it was not there. Clinching and grappling were among fighting arts in China, Japan and even in the Western world. It was not used in fights because it was useless against real striking

. So when the Gracie's came back with it, people was not used to it, that's why they got dominated with it. Just after a while, it starts to lose again. Cesar Gracie was knocked out in 21 seconds by Shamrock. ''

where do you get your information from??
The gracies simply created the ufc to show that their jujitsu (not mma) was a superior fighting stly to prove it they set a 'no rules' to combat people using excuses.
Ken shamrock was the only fighter that cross trained in the first ufc.
Still to this day the Gracies train in gracie-Jujitsu not MMA,MMa is the evolution of what works in a combat situation,many of the Armed forces hand to hand tactics are that of MMA.

''This shows how training in all fighting ranges is important

. I don't say be just a boxer and you will win, and not a pure grappler, but be a well rounded fighter will all fighting abilities.''

Like MMA???Bro im confused what your saying here,first you said MMA is not complete then your saying that knowing both grapplering and striking makes you complete (which is what mma is!)


''Now Wing Chun is complete in all fighting ranges, and many instructors from all fighting arts started to join WT. The only problem exist in about WT is that it's a Chinese fighting systems, and westerners in general wouldn't like the idea of learning the Chinese sort of thing, rather than stick to their Wrestling stuff which is with all my respect, not the best choice used in a street fight''

yeah your right us westerners train in Japanese Karate,jujitsu,kendo Thai Muay thai, muay boran, Israeli krav maga Brazilian capporiera and Pilipino stick fighting BUT NO ONE WE WONT TRAIN IN CHINESE ARTS!!!!! come on bro that a weak point you just made.


.''

This is especially in the states, were you find BJJ has been popularized alot my the media sources in there. As to Europe, and especially Germany. Many fighting instructors joined WT. This includes fighters from Karate, Wrestling, Jujitsu, and Boxers.

''

Thats too much of a broad statement there bro.
I could say the same.
__________________

 

[Jade Tigress]

Mod. Note
Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator

 

[Cruentus]

Since I was named dropped here ( :wavey: ) I'll provide some food for thought.

This is taken directly from the grappling section in one of our combative programs:

Principle #1: Be not afraid

A common feeling for the uninitiated is a fear of grappling and the clinch. Psychologically one can feel awkward, claustrophobic and a loss of control, especially if the opponent is dominating. This can be demoralizing, confusing, and scary. Often the reaction is to panic and burn excessive energy; and if this does not remedy the situation, often what follows is a loss of the winning mindset due to a feeling of helplessness. Thus, the uninitiated &#8220;gives up&#8221; and loses the fight. Losing the fight on the street can mean death or bodily injury.

To overcome this one must first cognitively accept that grappling by itself is no more dangerous then standing and fighting. On your back on the ground, for example, may not be the best place to be on the street, but by itself the position you're in will not cause you to lose the fight. Second, one must recognize that the best way to understand how to handle grappling positions on the street is to train from those positions in practice. Once one realizes these principles, then one must train accordingly, and make grappling positions a part of ones comfort zone. To summarize differently, to understand grappling, you must grapple. There are no shortcuts. By training grappling you will remove the mystery behind it, which will dissipate those common fears, and make you a well-rounded fighter.

Paul Janulis
(c) Tulisan Company 2006
All Rights Reserved

Just something to think about...

Paul

 

[Si-Je]

Your instructor went to his sons bjj class to challenge the instructor to show his son that bjj was not for the street?!?!?What did he show his son that did work on the street?"

He kept it pretty clean, all he did was very basic anti-grappling.

I think someone has given you misinformation here, I know of no one who "trains to take a punch" punches happen in fights. If you are used to the presure then it doesn't suprise you whin it happens in the ring or the street. let me give you one example of how it is commonly trained, you will find this or somthing like it at most gyms. Boxer feeds shooter slow punchig combos, a simple jab/cross. if shooter is in a bad position she gets punched in the mellon. A few rounds of that and the shooter keeps her hand up, so she doedn't get punched in the face nearly as much. And as the shooter gets better the combos get faster and harder. understand? Plus and I keep coming back to this it is very hard to
continuously punch someone in the face as they are lvl changing on you

I understand that, that's just training your technique, feeling out what works before you go in hot and heavy. I've just heard alot of grapplers talk about how they "take" a couple of hits so they can get the takedown. I've found that many MA's in general feel it's necessary to get hit pretty regular to toughen up so to speak.
What I've found working with some of the BJJ guys that come into class, is that 50% of the time, yes they do take me to the ground. Their fast, and the angle of entry is so low as to make punching difficult. Plus, kicking or kneeing them in the head (which is right there) usually come with the price of going to the ground. That's where the anti-grappling comes in. It keeps their weight off of you, allows you to re-direct their energy much easier. When they move to strike, or choke, or attempt an armbar their weight and balance shifts. If you learn to use that to your advantage you can get them off you and mount to strike and get back up from the ground much quicker.

Not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean after you get the grappler to the groun you will finish them off with a flurry of kicks? can you show me the article or email link about this story?
So what you are saying is tha NO grapplers have ever experienced fighting wing chun folks?

Yes, many of these grapplers want to be in between my legs on top so they can armbar, strike, whatever. By simply putting your knees together and using your feet to kick, and unbalance them it keeps them from getting set do their technique. There are some videos on youtube from Sifu Guiterrez links on the first post of this forum. Theirs not email link or article on this "story" it's just known anti-grappling technique. Really, not many people in the states know the anti-grappling enough to teach it. Just a couple of Emins students.
As for grapplers having experience fighting wing chun, I'd have to say no. If any not many. And most WT/WC schools do not teach anti-grappling. Only Emins students, he came up with the stuff and split off from the other federations because of it and the politics.

Si-Je I think you missed my point, have YOU experimented outside of your comfort zone? Have you verified your instructor’s claims? You are taking a lot of assumptions on blind faith. this may be presumptuous of me, but in your post you said
so you don't know if your techniques work or not? The big problem with you hitting the bag, as you know Im sure, is that a bag does not give honest feedback. Don't make the mistake of thinking you have unstoppable technique, just because someone told you it was. It is always dangerous to say " oh I would just, do this or this"

As for my "comfort zone" I've done MA since I was 10 years old. I've done karate, Judo, Japanese Ju-Jitsu, Kung fu, escrima, kali, etc. When I started WC I was a gung ho Ju-Jitsu stylist. I've tried many time to get my instructor in about every lock I could think of. Never happened. I studied Ju-Jitsu for over three years and made Sempi, I was no slouch.
As for my instructors claims of sparring and fighting BJJ stylists, I've seen him do it.
The bag was just an example. Moving a 250lbs sand bag around the room litterally when I can't even move it without punching should say something. I've used the chain punching sparring in women's black belt division last year and won against a woman who had 50lbs on me.
I agree it's dangerous to say" oh I would just, do this or this." in reguards to fighting. You can never anticipate or plan a fight. And when I competed last time I was really surprised and disapointed that I only used grade 1 and 2 techniques. But with the rules that's really all you can do, no elbows, knees, etc.
What I've seen is that alot of WT/WC stylists don't use their technique when they compete. I don't know, they freak out or something, I've talked to quite a few online and they don't have any faith in it's effectiveness. I'm not sure why this is so, but this is why they lose. Whatever art you are studying, if you don't believe in it, you defeat yourself.

 

[Si-Je]

LoL do you even know what grappling is about??????????? I mean just read the various posts here. Grappling is about not getting taken down if you don't want to be. If you do to gain a dominant position for strikes or bone breaks.
Soldiers train in strikes,weapons,and grappling if grappling did not work then it would be removed from their training. I remember reading a article about how soldiers used BBJ in combat

That was what has been told to us by an Army trainer who was in the war and was a black belt in BJJ. My instructor was in the U.S.M.C just 3 years ago, was a trainer, and in recon. He's used WC and Kempo karate in the field, he's used the anti-grappling with multiple attackers in the street and in recon.
I know what grappling is about, I just don't think that it's practical for realistic situations. I've trained Ju-Jitsu, and used it on occasion. But the Ju-Jitsu I trained was Japanese and we NEVER went to the ground on purpose. I have a saying, "don't do a technique that doesn't place you at the advantage."
I don't see how grabbing someone and falling on your butt to the ground to get them in an armbar is an advantage for me. I don't see how tackling a large dude around the knees, hips, or whatever is even going to work for me. I've tried it on large men 6 foot and up. It's suicide I tell you. I don't want their massive weight on my body, I don't want to mount someone and grapple them from between their legs. These things do NOT give me an advantage over my opponent. It just puts me in a very compromising position. It seems men tend to really like this stuff. I want the fight over quickly and go home unscathed. If I have to eye strike, or chop the throat till they quit breathing, fine with me.