Another Self defence system

[Midnight-shadow]

Hi guys.

A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=701424553402007

 

[drop bear]

Tell your friend to do MMA.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You may

- write a book with 100 techniques.
- make a DVD with 50 techniques.
- given a workshop with 25 techniques.
- demo in the public with 10 techniques.
- fight in the street with 5 techniques.

 

[Danny T]

He has some well trained seals to demo with.

 

[marques]

Tell your friend to do MMA.

Why? In MMA the other guy fights back, you know?

I don't want to see guys hurting themselves for no reason, but I would like to see more demonstrations with some opposition as below, rather than experts (in) hitting a death stand up man.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hi guys.

A friend on Facebook sent this to me asking for my opinion, and quite frankly I don't know what to make of it. From one stand point the guy doing the demonstrations clearly has a lot of speed and has trained his techniques well, but it's hard to tell if he could do the same thing under resistance.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=701424553402007

His first move each time looks good (I don't agree with some of them, but they do start control). In most cases, the rest appears to be predicated on the opponent/attacker not moving. In many of the cases, any movement would change the situation and remove (or, rather, change) the remainder of the response. My biggest problem is that I don't see him controlling the other person in many of these. He steps in to take a leg or to kick it out, but hasn't controlled the upper body, so he's more vulnerable during that step than his attacker is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why? In MMA the other guy fights back, you know?

I don't want to see guys hurting themselves for no reason, but I would like to see more demonstrations with some opposition as below, rather than experts (in) hitting a death stand up man.

Am I the only one who gets annoyed that videos like that are 3 minutes of intro and 3 minutes of fight?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why? In MMA the other guy fights back, you know?

I don't want to see guys hurting themselves for no reason, but I would like to see more demonstrations with some opposition as below, rather than experts (in) hitting a death stand up man.

In fairness to the video in the OP, that's not even a demonstration, or even practice. It appears to be teaching, and that is about the most un-live situation there is.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

His first move each time looks good (I don't agree with some of them, but they do start control). In most cases, the rest appears to be predicated on the opponent/attacker not moving. In many of the cases, any movement would change the situation and remove (or, rather, change) the remainder of the response. My biggest problem is that I don't see him controlling the other person in many of these. He steps in to take a leg or to kick it out, but hasn't controlled the upper body, so he's more vulnerable during that step than his attacker is.

It's pretty much understood that things would be a lot different if the attacker moved more, but that is almost impossible to do in a demonstration let alone a lesson where you are explaining the techniques. My problem is that some of the moves looked like the attacker was literally just falling over. Now granted there are a lot of techniques where trying to resist them results in more injury to the victim, but still, it seemed just a little bit too fake to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's pretty much understood that things would be a lot different if the attacker moved more, but that is almost impossible to do in a demonstration let alone a lesson where you are explaining the techniques. My problem is that some of the moves looked like the attacker was literally just falling over. Now granted there are a lot of techniques where trying to resist them results in more injury to the victim, but still, it seemed just a little bit too fake to me.

What made them fall over, in many cases, appeared real (from a physics standpoint), but wouldn't be very available in motion - unless you control their body (from the head, arm, or shoulder, usually). Their falls were probably somewhat exaggerated compared to what made them fall, but that's mostly because it gets you a cleaner fall, which is easier on the person taking the fall - it's something most of us do when we take a lot of falls in training drills.

 

[hoshin1600]

so the guy in the video is Fred Mastro. the system is the Mastro Self Defense System.
i will say that as far as a martial artist Fred is the real deal. the reality of his system is that he is a Pencak Silat practitioner. his system is pretty much that, marketed as a self defense system due to his credentials as a door man and later training police and military (so says his public info) and the popularity of that brand of stuff in todays market.

to ask if his system will work is really asking if silat will work.
he is very well known. i have seen his stuff on line. i have asked myself the same question, how much in silat will work and how much is kinda fluff that only works in the demonstration setting.
as far as the clip posted,, context is everything. what i see is a guy giving a seminar on his stuff. part of his goal is to promote himself and his system, so of course he is going to be flashy and show off in order to impress the crowd. its kind of a requirement of self promotion. AND it is to be expected. the people have payed good money to see the "world famous Fred Mastro" they would be upset if they were not wowed. that was part of the reason they attended, to see the guy in person and in action.

 

[jobo]

so the guy in the video is Fred Mastro. the system is the Mastro Self Defense System.
i will say that as far as a martial artist Fred is the real deal. the reality of his system is that he is a Pencak Silat practitioner. his system is pretty much that, marketed as a self defense system due to his credentials as a door man and later training police and military (so says his public info) and the popularity of that brand of stuff in todays market.

to ask if his system will work is really asking if silat will work.
he is very well known. i have seen his stuff on line. i have asked myself the same question, how much in silat will work and how much is kinda fluff that only works in the demonstration setting.
as far as the clip posted,, context is everything. what i see is a guy giving a seminar on his stuff. part of his goal is to promote himself and his system, so of course he is going to be flashy and show off in order to impress the crowd. its kind of a requirement of self promotion. AND it is to be expected. the people have payed good money to see the "world famous Fred Mastro" they would be upset if they were not wowed. that was part of the reason they attended, to see the guy in person and in action.

i think with that hand speed and fluidity he would be quite a hand full for the vast majority of people. The real test is what's it look like as a self defence system for mere mortals, when it a quarter of the speed. Just as cluncky as most other self defence systems i would suggest, so your left with the same situations as all ma, its might take you years to get even quite good at it and you may never get there, bet it doesn't say that in his promo matterial?

 

[Midnight-shadow]

i think with that hand speed and fluidity he would be quite a hand full for the vast majority of people. The real test is what's it look like as a self defence system for mere mortals, when it a quarter of the speed. Just as cluncky as most other self defence systems i would suggest, so your left with the same situations as all ma, its might take you years to get even quite good at it and you may never get there, bet it doesn't say that in his promo matterial?

This is a similar problem I have with Aikido. I fully believe that Aikido is an amazing Self-defence Martial Art but if it takes you 25+ years to get to the point of usefulness with it then what is the point? Now granted to a lot of people (myself included), there is a lot more to Martial Arts than self-defence, but if you are trying to market a self-defence system then one of your primary goals should be accessibility and simplicity. In cases like this I think what would be more effective would be instead of showing the Master doing the moves, bring in someone who has only been training a few months and see how they manage using the system. If you are trying to demonstrate the system's effectiveness, having a novice prove it works is much more powerful than the Master doing it.

 

[drop bear]

You can always try Kerberos, they offer 8 hour courses

Now on a serious note, I have checked you profile, not sure it's up to date but I saw that you practice Tai Chi, White Crane and Wing Chun. Those are all systems that take years to develop any martial skill. What the hell are you doing with those then?

Every system from Krav Maga to traditional Tai Chi have the potential to teach you some form of fighting, but it both takes time to develop the skill to even use it. Ok one will give you the tools slightly sooner but it will still require practice.

You are now judging a complete system from a single seminar trailer......

It is kind of a case of how much you are expected to process in a short amount of time.

If you look at the mechanics you see that each strike requires a response or even a couple of responses. The faster and more numerous the strikes the harder it is to keep up.

Now you can slow their strikes down with footwork. Basically if they have to step in their striking isn't this massive volume of attacks as much. Then you can address an individual attack. But if you are fighting from directly in front that sort of method is ambitious.

You see this at play with that first video where the instructor is showing how hard it is to defend a knife cut and just nailes him ten times.

That is the mechanic of striking that people dont consider. I mean he can't even get a hand up let alone some counter.

It is kind of like going to BJJ and Learning a thousand submissions. I don't think you ever really understand the art that way.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is a similar problem I have with Aikido. I fully believe that Aikido is an amazing Self-defence Martial Art but if it takes you 25+ years to get to the point of usefulness with it then what is the point? Now granted to a lot of people (myself included), there is a lot more to Martial Arts than self-defence, but if you are trying to market a self-defence system then one of your primary goals should be accessibility and simplicity. In cases like this I think what would be more effective would be instead of showing the Master doing the moves, bring in someone who has only been training a few months and see how they manage using the system. If you are trying to demonstrate the system's effectiveness, having a novice prove it works is much more powerful than the Master doing it.

Agreed. Styles that focus entirely on the "aiki" principles and techniques are best suited to add-on to an existing base. Even in NGA, the functional base traditionally develops over time. I've been working it earlier and earlier, to see what develops students to some defensive ability early. The issue is figuring out how quickly folks can potentially develop with the time they commit.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

You can always try Kerberos, they offer 8 hour courses

Now on a serious note, I have checked you profile, not sure it's up to date but I saw that you practice Tai Chi, White Crane and Wing Chun. Those are all systems that take years to develop any martial skill. What the hell are you doing with those then?

Every system from Krav Maga to traditional Tai Chi have the potential to teach you some form of fighting, but it both takes time to develop the skill to even use it. Ok one will give you the tools slightly sooner but it will still require practice.

You are now judging a complete system from a single seminar trailer......

You know what, I've read through this post 10 times and I really don't know how to reply to it, it's that stupid. But since you were clearly trying to provoke a reaction, I will try to oblige (even though it's probably not worth my time). First off, I don't learn White Crane (my primary art) purely for self-defence, but for fitness, socialising, learning the culture and fun. If I do learn some self-defence skills along the way, that's a bonus for me. This is fine because that is exactly the same focus as my instructor, which is why he is teaching a traditional Chinese Martial Arts system rather than a more modern self-defence system. It's also why we do traditional forms, weapons and archery as well as learning self-defence. That is what I signed up for and that is what I got.

On the other hand the system in the OP labels itself as a "self-defence system", in other words, teaching self-defence is its primary goal. If it doesn't teach it effectively then one would question why you would choose it over other systems? The video is a marketing tool, to prove that the teacher is skilled, knowledgeable and most importantly that the system works. All I said was that if you wanted to prove a system's effectiveness you would show-case some novices doing the techniques as well as the instructor. Yes of course the novices won't be nearly as fast or skilled as the instructor, but they don't need to be. If someone is looking for effective self-defence they aren't going to want to choose a system that takes 20+ years of solid training in before you can use the system in a live situation. One of the reasons why bjj is so popular for self-defence is because even after just 6 months of training you are probably able to use some of the basic techniques on a resisting opponent. Can you say the same for this system?

Finally (and I'm not even sure why I need to ask this at all) what does my choice of Martial Art have anything at all to do with critiquing a self-defence system?

 

[drop bear]

You know what, I've read through this post 10 times and I really don't know how to reply to it, it's that stupid. But since you were clearly trying to provoke a reaction, I will try to oblige (even though it's probably not worth my time). First off, I don't learn White Crane (my primary art) purely for self-defence, but for fitness, socialising, learning the culture and fun. If I do learn some self-defence skills along the way, that's a bonus for me. This is fine because that is exactly the same focus as my instructor, which is why he is teaching a traditional Chinese Martial Arts system rather than a more modern self-defence system. It's also why we do traditional forms, weapons and archery as well as learning self-defence. That is what I signed up for and that is what I got.

On the other hand the system in the OP labels itself as a "self-defence system", in other words, teaching self-defence is its primary goal. If it doesn't teach it effectively then one would question why you would choose it over other systems? The video is a marketing tool, to prove that the teacher is skilled, knowledgeable and most importantly that the system works. All I said was that if you wanted to prove a system's effectiveness you would show-case some novices doing the techniques as well as the instructor. Yes of course the novices won't be nearly as fast or skilled as the instructor, but they don't need to be. If someone is looking for effective self-defence they aren't going to want to choose a system that takes 20+ years of solid training in before you can use the system in a live situation. One of the reasons why bjj is so popular for self-defence is because even after just 6 months of training you are probably able to use some of the basic techniques on a resisting opponent. Can you say the same for this system?

Finally (and I'm not even sure why I need to ask this at all) what does my choice of Martial Art have anything at all to do with critiquing a self-defence system?

Except when does a person ever have to use a self defence system?

Which is why you can get away with so much by being one.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

Except when does a person ever have to use a self defence system?

Which is why you can get away with so much by being one.

Wow, twice in a single thread where I've read a post a dozen or so times and have no idea what it means. Am I losing my grip on the English language or something?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Except when does a person ever have to use a self defence system?

Which is why you can get away with so much by being one.

If you have never involved with any street fight, you will never have to use your self-defense system. On the other hand, if you spar/wrestle daily, will you call your system "self-defense" or "sport"?

If you create a new MA system, you want to test it against many different MA systems, How can you do that without using any "sport" format? If you say that your new JKD is better than the old WC system, you do have to prove it in the ring.

 

[jobo]

Wow, twice in a single thread where I've read a post a dozen or so times and have no idea what it means. Am I losing my grip on the English language or something?

i think his point was you can sell any old tripe as self defence and it might be years before they find out its tripe.