Self defence situatio

[JR 137]

It didn't seem like he even had much time to hear what was being said or yelled, back and forth between Grandpa and his wife. He just walked out of the store and saw his wife get out of the car to get in that guy's face.....so she was def. not afraid of Grandpa. She said he was trying to protect her, which is probably BS. Grandpa was clearly keeping distance from the car while they were arguing.

He used physical violence (by surprise) to impose his will onto someone. It's like if you argue with people on this forum but can't come to an agreement, so you seek them out in person, to punch their lights out.



Yeah, that's very sad all around. Grandpa may have been a busy body and a complete AH, but this should not detract from the fact that this law protects many, many more people, esp. of poor areas, than causing these rare cases such as this type of questionable shooting. Otherwise, this could be any of us when we're old, frail and can't do ****.

I agree with you in principle, and I think we’re on the same page. But my point is we can’t hear exactly what was said during any of this. For all we know the old man could’ve been telling the woman he’d hurt her, shoot her, telling her very offensive things, etc. For all we know the boyfriend could’ve been telling him to back off and he didn’t. The body language tells me otherwise, it that doesn’t mean anything.

We don’t know any of that. All we see is a silent video and have to interpret it. And the entire truth will most likely never come out. It seems like everyone involved handled the situation the wrong way. It’s really unfortunate for everyone. I’m sure the woman is thinking about a lot of what ifs. Same for the old man. And the kid is going to be scared for life.

“It’s a big sh!t sandwich, and everyone’s going to have to take a bite.”
~ Full metal jacket.

 

[FriedRice]

The UK, so you'll obviously say it's not comparable. Only it is, as is Australia. It is because the per capita amount is pretty much the same, it's only the total that's different.

And you didn't say getting out of poverty, you said healthcare. We still have poor people.

Sorry, I was responding to Drop Bear, who implied poverty. I already type a ton of text, so that would be a lot more if I had to repeat everything.

Before the NHS was introduced we had much the same system in place as you do now - that being the people who could afford to pay a doctor got treatment, anyone else was pretty much left to get on with it or die.

You still don't have 30-40 million illegal immigrants with 1-1.5 million entering every year + 1 million legal ones entering, also each year.

Not really an aspirational model.

Says you, but not most of us.

Simple.

Because someone/everyone else likely is as well.

I like it too.

 

[FriedRice]

I agree with you in principle, and I think we’re on the same page. But my point is we can’t hear exactly what was said during any of this. For all we know the old man could’ve been telling the woman he’d hurt her, shoot her, telling her very offensive things, etc. For all we know the boyfriend could’ve been telling him to back off and he didn’t. The body language tells me otherwise, it that doesn’t mean anything.

True. But unlikely because she got out of the car to get in his face. She clearly wasn't afraid of him, especially if he'd said that he was going to hurt and/or shoot her with his gun. When she was in the car, you can see him keeping a distance to not be the aggressor and respecting her space.

We don’t know any of that. All we see is a silent video and have to interpret it. And the entire truth will most likely never come out. It seems like everyone involved handled the situation the wrong way. It’s really unfortunate for everyone. I’m sure the woman is thinking about a lot of what ifs. Same for the old man. And the kid is going to be scared for life.

“It’s a big sh!t sandwich, and everyone’s going to have to take a bite.”
~ Full metal jacket.

Very true, it's horrible for the kid.

 

[pdg]

You still don't have 30-40 million illegal immigrants with 1-1.5 million entering every year + 1 million legal ones entering, also each year.

From what I can find, your figures are somewhat inflated.

You're claiming that 10% of the entire population is there illegally, while official figures list the legal immigrant figure at 13.5%, somebody's numbers are awry.

And from what else I can find, the percentage of the whole population that is made up of immigrants (both legal and illegal) is broadly similar in the UK and US.

Says you, but not most of us.

So most of you fully support letting the vulnerable members of society die of curable diseases because they can't afford treatment? How is that a societal model to aspire to?

You say the weak, elderly etc. should be allowed to arm themselves to defend against external attackers, but refuse to help them fight internal attacks...

 

[JR 137]

True. But unlikely because she got out of the car to get in his face. She clearly wasn't afraid of him, especially if he'd said that he was going to hurt and/or shoot her with his gun. When she was in the car, you can see him keeping a distance to not be the aggressor and respecting her space.



Very true, it's horrible for the kid.

All the stuff I said could’ve been said is unlikely for the reasons you claim (and I thought the same thing), but it’s possible. And we’ll never know.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry, I was responding to Drop Bear, who implied poverty. I already type a ton of text, so that would be a lot more if I had to repeat everything.



You still don't have 30-40 million illegal immigrants with 1-1.5 million entering every year + 1 million legal ones entering, also each year.



Says you, but not most of us.



I like it too.

64,000 illegal immigrants. Most of them English and American.

There abouts.

 

[CB Jones]

Most of them English

Ugh....the worst kind.

 

[drop bear]

So if some grandpa told your girl that the parking spot she was in, was meant for handicapped people.....and both starts arguing back and forth.....maybe yelling.... then you think that you should have the right to use physical violence to end the discussion?

Personally, I'd love to live in such a world b/c that would be pretty damn fun..... but old grandpa ain't a fighter....and this would mean that the strong, young, and trained would dominate the weak and elderly, at will.

Yes.

This means you talk **** you get hit.

The strong trained and athletic dominate the weak in a world with guns.

And the pope agrees with me.

 

[Anarax]

This means you talk **** you get hit.

Are you stating that's how others think? Or this is how you think?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Sorry, I was responding to Drop Bear, who implied poverty. I already type a ton of text, so that would be a lot more if I had to repeat everything.



You still don't have 30-40 million illegal immigrants with 1-1.5 million entering every year + 1 million legal ones entering, also each year.



Says you, but not most of us.



I like it too.

C'mon dude, don't make up numbers. You're making both conservatives and libertarians look bad...

 

[drop bear]

Are you stating that's how others think? Or this is how you think?

You don't get to play self defence if you have provoked people. Legally.

And I agree with that concept.

 

[pdg]

You don't get to play self defence if you have provoked people. Legally.

And I agree with that concept.

I agree with that too.

Although, there is a little bit of what is classified as provoking.

Shouting, threatening - definitely provocation.

What about "excuse me, but I believe you doing xyz isn't quite right"?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

64,000 illegal immigrants. Most of them English and American.

There abouts.

You'd think the spiders would keep them away.

 

[Balrog]

The classic statement about adventures: while you're having an adventure, you wish you weren't.

Good job. You went home with your kids. That's a win any day of the week.

 

[FriedRice]

From what I can find, your figures are somewhat inflated.

You're claiming that 10% of the entire population is there illegally, while official figures list the legal immigrant figure at 13.5%, somebody's numbers are awry.

The official number of Illegals is 11-12 million, estimated in year 2000 and then again in 2006. How does that even make sense that it stayed about the same in the span of these 6 years and was the SAME figure quoted in the last Presidential Election of 2016; which was another 10 years later, totaling a span of 16 years that this 11-12 million figure didn't change.

And from what else I can find, the percentage of the whole population that is made up of immigrants (both legal and illegal) is broadly similar in the UK and US.

You keep saying this, but don't post any numbers. What are the number of immigrants being allowed into the UK each, especially in the last 5 years?

So most of you fully support letting the vulnerable members of society die of curable diseases because they can't afford treatment? How is that a societal model to aspire to?

You mean you want us to be like your healthcare system where many people die while waiting for treatment?
Record numbers dying while waiting for hospital appointments

And get crappy healthcare to boot? No wonder that those Brits who are rich, often comes here for their serious operations and treatments. We already know what crappy Govt' operated healthcare systems can do, as we already have the VA here, where our Veterans commit suicide by a rate of about 20 per day.

You say the weak, elderly etc. should be allowed to arm themselves to defend against external attackers, but refuse to help them fight internal attacks...

Oh so you complain about our weak, elderly, etc. having no healthcare, but now you want to take away their rights to be armed to protect themselves too? Isn't that making it even worse? What next, break 1 of their legs to make it even more challenging for them? Haha, nice try though. Oh, and we do have Medicaid for them.

 

[FriedRice]

C'mon dude, don't make up numbers. You're making both conservatives and libertarians look bad...

Give me YOUR numbers then. Go ahead, quote that Wikipedia chart that will popup first when you google, so I can refute it.

My 1-1.5 million number was actually quite conservative.

 

[FriedRice]

64,000 illegal immigrants. Most of them English and American.

There abouts.

Must be nice there.

 

[FriedRice]

You don't get to play self defence if you have provoked people. Legally.

And I agree with that concept.

We have Freedom of Speech in the USA though. And the 2nd Amendment to back it up.

 

[FriedRice]

Yes.

This means you talk **** you get hit.

And Stand Your Ground means, you hit first = you can get shot and die.

The strong trained and athletic dominate the weak in a world with guns.

But the weak, untrained and fatty will have a much better chance with a gun (vs. gun) then without.

Actually, there are plenty of Grandpas, Fatties and Grandpa Fatties that train at the range like crazy and for tens of years, perhaps throughout their life....over a million rounds fired....they probably can't sprint 50 feet w/o gassing + passing out.....but no way in hell would I want to get into a firefight vs. one of them, and I do shoot quite a bit.

And the pope agrees with me.

LOL, this Pope should do standup comedy instead of playing w/young boys for a hobby.

 

[now disabled]

The official number of Illegals is 11-12 million, estimated in year 2000 and then again in 2006. How does that even make sense that it stayed about the same in the span of these 6 years and was the SAME figure quoted in the last Presidential Election of 2016; which was another 10 years later, totaling a span of 16 years that this 11-12 million figure didn't change.



You keep saying this, but don't post any numbers. What are the number of immigrants being allowed into the UK each, especially in the last 5 years?



You mean you want us to be like your healthcare system where many people die while waiting for treatment?
Record numbers dying while waiting for hospital appointments

And get crappy healthcare to boot? No wonder that those Brits who are rich, often comes here for their serious operations and treatments. We already know what crappy Govt' operated healthcare systems can do, as we already have the VA here, where our Veterans commit suicide by a rate of about 20 per day.



Oh so you want the weak, elderly, etc. to be w/o guns and therefore, be both defenseless against "external attackers" and w/o health insurance too? Maybe you want to break one of their legs also, to make it more challenging for them? Haha, nice try though. But we do have Medicaid for the elderly and poor, so nice try again.

Hey steady on my friend

Don't go bashing the NHS (no it not perfect) and the rich Brits as you put it well that is there choice, As for waiting times don't put all your faith in what the press says (they do have a bit of a habit of well making the most out of things), And for your info in case you do not know the NHS is not free like you may think before you start yelling that.

As for immigration there is a illegal problem here just as in the states (no where as big ) it just they have to be a bit more creative getting here due to the big lump of water that surrounds us. They do however.

You seem to be coming at this all charged up and the rest. I have had friends who have had medicaid and it did not cover all by any means

There is always going to be a difference of views on medical care between stateside and here.

I had a friend who is dead now who was a MD and I once asked him his opinion on why he thought there was a difference in approach and this is what he said paraphrased and shortened

The second war hit both the US and the UK badly in terms of soldiers lost (I include airmen and sailors marines too before you jump on that) however he said the states did not suffer the infrastructure hammering that we did and the civilian losses so he said the UK had to rebuild and had to look to how it could do that as it had many that were going to require long term care and people that had lost everything and could not pay for anything let alone medical care, So the view was taken cradle to grave in the UK (argue all you like but any UK subject -note I do not say citizen as technically were are not citizens - can go to a doctor or present at a hospital and not have to concern themselves as to can they afford it or is their health insurance going to cover it, also north of the border scripts are free so again if Doc prescribes people can get). He said that the states didn't see the need to do that (cradle to grave ) as he said the civilian population and infrastructure had not been hit in the same way , so they went down the insurance route and that as it had gone on so long it was never going to change or be permitted to change due to the money to be made.

That was what he told me and well there is more to it but I def could see the logic