I am done with this. I notice that you are not touching the idea of dysfunction/neural response. Nor, are you answering the questions at the end of my last post. Instead you are beating the same drum you have been all along. Fine. I have had strong stances that I would not capitulate on as well. If this feels like a victory to you, then you are just as dillusional about verbal discourse as you are about the human body.
I
Ippon Ken
Guest
This post is interesting. Not that my opinion matters much, but I find merit in Hogey's and AM's arguments.
Hedge is right to say you should be versed in a good grappling style, like wrestling (preferably freestyle or catch), Judo, Shuai Jiao, Tegumi (only some know this nowadays) or GJJ/BJJ. When I say versed I mean you should have a good fundamental understanding of how to stay on your feet, reverse a mount, keep someone in your guard and how to submit someone if the fight does go to the ground. This doesn't mean you need to be first kyu or higher in Judo or a BJJ Purple Belt or > (although that wouldn't hurt). It means you should understand some basic principles that apply to standing and ground grappling.
In a one-on-one confrontation an art like GJJ can be very effective. I don't know how you'd be sure that there is only one opponent involved, but if you are doing sentry disposal or are a SpecOps guy who confronts an enemy soldier down some dark corridor, it would help to know how to choke him the f-ck out! In the streets of most major cities around the world, friendly mano-a-mano matches are very unlikely. Maybe on the beaches of Brazil, but not anywhere I've lived. If someone attacks you on the street always assume that there are multiple attackers just waiting in the shadows. In this instance even getting a knee-on-chest mount is not safe. BTW I have seen the knee-on-chest mount from folks who were not formally trained in anything. A strong cat that understands his strengths will often employ this tech against a oblivious and often weaker opponent. I've seen it twice in my college days and twice when I was in HS in the mid-80s. This was way before anyone where I was at knew about GJJ or groundfighting. In a "fair" fight it is a good position to be in. In the streets it's just as dangerous as the full mount or the guard.
For those martial sport types who claim that you can't defeat multiple opponents on the street, I say what's your evidence? I have seen it multiple times, and even an instance where 3 guys back-to-back in a club fought off dozens of idiots rushing them from all sides. Know that only a certain number of dudes could get at them at one time. The sheer number of folks involved in the fracas shielded the three guys from the other attackers. They clocked suckers rushing straight in, punted a few, threw a lot (the three were all big football players) and didn't stop striking and moving as one mass. In the end the cops came and all that happened to the attacked was one guy had a "shiner" under his right eye. I don't need any proof that fighting multiple opponents can work. I've seen it.
I saw the same guy who used the knee-on-chest mount, we called him P.S. (for Pitiful Specimen), beat three policemen severely after they tried to punk him at a BBQ stand outside the Maingate of Clark AB, Philippines. He didn't know any MAs, just football
, but his pops was a big Combat Controller who could bench like 600 pounds. This kid was about 70" and 180 pounds. Not a brute by any stretch of the imagination, and actually someone who we considered on the lower end of our crew's hierarchy, in physical and mental toughness. He was 18 when he kicked the SPs asses and then ran back on base before they knew what even hit them. It was hella funny!
On to AMs assessment of real fighting. You better have a good foundation in street fighting or a good MAs foundation in all ranges of combat. Sure you can be a karate-ka or TKD cat with awesome striking skills, but if you don't end the fight fast you better know how to choke someone. In order to choke someone you have to get them, or better yet you have to let them get theirselves into a position to choke them. Hand chokes as found in styles like Kuntaw Silat, Karate Jutsu and Eagle Claw Chuan Fa are the best for the street. Rear naked chokes are good, but they take sometime to act on the opponent. Constricting the carotids can be done much easier with a grasp of your hand. Pure grapplers better understand that if 90% of fights end up on the ground, then almost all fights (99%) start out standing. Learn to keep it here. Learn to punch without padding and with a good understanding of biomechanics and A&P. This takes years of bone, muscle and sinew conditioning. You don't get that from hand wraps and gloves. You get that from Ktoeate/kotkitai and other "iron body" exercises. Hiting a heavybag as hard as you can without gloves is the beginning. Moving on to makiwara and other hard objects polishes this skill. Kata conditions the sinews. Two-man drills done full force makes your weapons and your body strong without causing brain damage and unnecessary injury.
Weak bones come from years of wrapping pillows around your hands and feet. If you break your hands how will you grapple or punch? This is what the BJJ guys don't understand. This is what the very deadly ring tacticians like boxers and Thai Boxers have forgotten with the advent of more and more rules.
As for animalistic fighting traits. All the bestial instinct in the wolrd will not save you from someone who is more animalistic, bigger, faster, stronger and more intent on getting at you than you are. Being strong from weight training, being able to absorb blows and remaining calm with the undercurrent of brutal intentions takes years of training and practice. TOMAs address this well, as do good Chuan Fa styles and even good Japanese karate styles like Kyokushinkai.
What I've seen is some gain this "animalistic" ability from getting stole a lot and fighting on the street. Others get it from hard sparring and intense training. Some acquire it from having their older bros, moms and pops kicking that **** regularly.
It is not innate, it is conditioned like every other habit or learned "trait". So no matter how many years you practice rape safe or Animal's **** Saving SD, you just are not gonna ingrain that type of attitude and stance. It comes from misfortune, training and practice in entropic situations. The killer instinct is cultivated and not innate. An example is the fact that research shows prior to Vietnam the troops trained to be soldiers, not killers. As a result studies have shown that only 10-15% of the troops on the ground in WWI-Korea actually fought! The rest cowered, hid under dead bodies or ran like beyotches. After this problem was identified the Army and Marines changed their training from a chivalrous stance to that of sociopathic killer school. You have to kill the conscience to a certain degree so that when it comes to life-or-death preservation you take the opponents life and spare you and your buddie's own.
You know, if you fight on the street with the intent of winning through technique and restraint you've already lost. If someone attacks you on the street you have to think "this dude don't know me, he obviously wants to kill, rape or maim me or mine" and act accordingly. Deal with the litigation later. It's you or him/them. If AM is teaching this type of training it is more suited for protecting your neck, but no moreso than training in good combat sports like Thai Boxing and BJJ.
In the streets a GOOD TMAs type has just as much chance to be victorious as a PROFICIENT MMAs cat does. Intent, EXPERIENCE, LUCK and mindset are what set apart the victimimized from the victorious, in a street situation.
If what you do in your combat sport (like Gracie Self Defense Techs) or your Animal fighting ingrains true intent then it will be more effective than patented TMAs and MMAs theory. That's MY facts, Jack!
Peace.
Hedge is right to say you should be versed in a good grappling style, like wrestling (preferably freestyle or catch), Judo, Shuai Jiao, Tegumi (only some know this nowadays) or GJJ/BJJ. When I say versed I mean you should have a good fundamental understanding of how to stay on your feet, reverse a mount, keep someone in your guard and how to submit someone if the fight does go to the ground. This doesn't mean you need to be first kyu or higher in Judo or a BJJ Purple Belt or > (although that wouldn't hurt). It means you should understand some basic principles that apply to standing and ground grappling.
In a one-on-one confrontation an art like GJJ can be very effective. I don't know how you'd be sure that there is only one opponent involved, but if you are doing sentry disposal or are a SpecOps guy who confronts an enemy soldier down some dark corridor, it would help to know how to choke him the f-ck out! In the streets of most major cities around the world, friendly mano-a-mano matches are very unlikely. Maybe on the beaches of Brazil, but not anywhere I've lived. If someone attacks you on the street always assume that there are multiple attackers just waiting in the shadows. In this instance even getting a knee-on-chest mount is not safe. BTW I have seen the knee-on-chest mount from folks who were not formally trained in anything. A strong cat that understands his strengths will often employ this tech against a oblivious and often weaker opponent. I've seen it twice in my college days and twice when I was in HS in the mid-80s. This was way before anyone where I was at knew about GJJ or groundfighting. In a "fair" fight it is a good position to be in. In the streets it's just as dangerous as the full mount or the guard.
For those martial sport types who claim that you can't defeat multiple opponents on the street, I say what's your evidence? I have seen it multiple times, and even an instance where 3 guys back-to-back in a club fought off dozens of idiots rushing them from all sides. Know that only a certain number of dudes could get at them at one time. The sheer number of folks involved in the fracas shielded the three guys from the other attackers. They clocked suckers rushing straight in, punted a few, threw a lot (the three were all big football players) and didn't stop striking and moving as one mass. In the end the cops came and all that happened to the attacked was one guy had a "shiner" under his right eye. I don't need any proof that fighting multiple opponents can work. I've seen it.
I saw the same guy who used the knee-on-chest mount, we called him P.S. (for Pitiful Specimen), beat three policemen severely after they tried to punk him at a BBQ stand outside the Maingate of Clark AB, Philippines. He didn't know any MAs, just football
, but his pops was a big Combat Controller who could bench like 600 pounds. This kid was about 70" and 180 pounds. Not a brute by any stretch of the imagination, and actually someone who we considered on the lower end of our crew's hierarchy, in physical and mental toughness. He was 18 when he kicked the SPs asses and then ran back on base before they knew what even hit them. It was hella funny!On to AMs assessment of real fighting. You better have a good foundation in street fighting or a good MAs foundation in all ranges of combat. Sure you can be a karate-ka or TKD cat with awesome striking skills, but if you don't end the fight fast you better know how to choke someone. In order to choke someone you have to get them, or better yet you have to let them get theirselves into a position to choke them. Hand chokes as found in styles like Kuntaw Silat, Karate Jutsu and Eagle Claw Chuan Fa are the best for the street. Rear naked chokes are good, but they take sometime to act on the opponent. Constricting the carotids can be done much easier with a grasp of your hand. Pure grapplers better understand that if 90% of fights end up on the ground, then almost all fights (99%) start out standing. Learn to keep it here. Learn to punch without padding and with a good understanding of biomechanics and A&P. This takes years of bone, muscle and sinew conditioning. You don't get that from hand wraps and gloves. You get that from Ktoeate/kotkitai and other "iron body" exercises. Hiting a heavybag as hard as you can without gloves is the beginning. Moving on to makiwara and other hard objects polishes this skill. Kata conditions the sinews. Two-man drills done full force makes your weapons and your body strong without causing brain damage and unnecessary injury.
Weak bones come from years of wrapping pillows around your hands and feet. If you break your hands how will you grapple or punch? This is what the BJJ guys don't understand. This is what the very deadly ring tacticians like boxers and Thai Boxers have forgotten with the advent of more and more rules.
As for animalistic fighting traits. All the bestial instinct in the wolrd will not save you from someone who is more animalistic, bigger, faster, stronger and more intent on getting at you than you are. Being strong from weight training, being able to absorb blows and remaining calm with the undercurrent of brutal intentions takes years of training and practice. TOMAs address this well, as do good Chuan Fa styles and even good Japanese karate styles like Kyokushinkai.
What I've seen is some gain this "animalistic" ability from getting stole a lot and fighting on the street. Others get it from hard sparring and intense training. Some acquire it from having their older bros, moms and pops kicking that **** regularly.
It is not innate, it is conditioned like every other habit or learned "trait". So no matter how many years you practice rape safe or Animal's **** Saving SD, you just are not gonna ingrain that type of attitude and stance. It comes from misfortune, training and practice in entropic situations. The killer instinct is cultivated and not innate. An example is the fact that research shows prior to Vietnam the troops trained to be soldiers, not killers. As a result studies have shown that only 10-15% of the troops on the ground in WWI-Korea actually fought! The rest cowered, hid under dead bodies or ran like beyotches. After this problem was identified the Army and Marines changed their training from a chivalrous stance to that of sociopathic killer school. You have to kill the conscience to a certain degree so that when it comes to life-or-death preservation you take the opponents life and spare you and your buddie's own.
You know, if you fight on the street with the intent of winning through technique and restraint you've already lost. If someone attacks you on the street you have to think "this dude don't know me, he obviously wants to kill, rape or maim me or mine" and act accordingly. Deal with the litigation later. It's you or him/them. If AM is teaching this type of training it is more suited for protecting your neck, but no moreso than training in good combat sports like Thai Boxing and BJJ.
In the streets a GOOD TMAs type has just as much chance to be victorious as a PROFICIENT MMAs cat does. Intent, EXPERIENCE, LUCK and mindset are what set apart the victimimized from the victorious, in a street situation.
If what you do in your combat sport (like Gracie Self Defense Techs) or your Animal fighting ingrains true intent then it will be more effective than patented TMAs and MMAs theory. That's MY facts, Jack!
Peace.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Good Post Ken. I liked it.
Ippon Ken said:
Excuse me, but why is this even in this thread? You guys have done some increadible bits of thread drift before I could jump in.
Marc would probably agree with your statement above, along with most of your post. (Except about getting someone to submit if you are a civilian.) He has a book on floor fighting, teaches throws, etc. So why have we been sucked into another "Grappling Uber Alles" debate?
Oh, I should say right up front that I have trained with Marc and consider him a friend. He and his wife helped me when I really needed it. They call me the "Wildman". If I was 6'9 they would probably call me "Tiny" in the same manner.
In regards to the original point of this thread I think that I should point out that Marc does train in martial arts. His wife and he run a martial arts school. They even do sparring at the school. Imagine that! Marc trains with Steve Plinkt last I heard in Silat. He is also very fond of another guy who teaches Silat who you can find at www.silat-video.com. I have trained under the latter and he is a truely scary guy- in a nice way. He teaches martial arts, but it is not like the stuff you see in a McDojo or on the WWF.
Take a look at the following link and you may understand a little more about how Marc seems to think about martial arts.
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html
So, what is the emphisis of your martial art? Did you start under someone because they managed to defeat someone else on TV? That may be described as a sport orientation. Do you train to defeat someone in the ring, or merely use the ring as part of your training and you do nothing specifically geared to the ring style of fighting? A lot of people who do the former will claim the latter. I have seen it.
But the important thing is to understand the ultimate goal you are trying to reach. If you are studying martial arts to defend yourself, you need to strip away anything that gets in the way of that. If you practice a form in your martial art for self defnese, you should not be fooling with it in order to impress judges. If you have to learn a move, you need to understand the "why" behind it. Do you know ho many people I have seen that practice sword forms but have no idea of the realities of combat with one?
Sorry about the rant. I just get irritated with people who think that a chin jab will not work unles you are buff and who seem to have NO experience in real combat trying to tear down a friend because they are scared by the reality he represents.
loki09789 said:
YES!!! This is getting very frustrating. HH, I have a question for you. What do all of your posts have to do with the topic at hand here??? I mean, the title and main point of this thread is to talk about "Animal", NOT about MMA/NHB/Sport vs. TMA, etc. Yet it seems like every post that you make, regardless of the topic of the thread, ALWAYS seems to turn into that sort of a debate. I mean, come on man, dont you think that we've beat that crap like a dead horse by now??? Who the hell cares what strike is gonna work and what isnt. If that is what you want to discuss, the please start a new topic. But in the meantime, can we PLEASE get the topic back on track!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Again, I believe that the topic is to discuss Animal, not about the UFC rules, what strike works best under pressure, aliveness, sport vs TMA, and all of the other NON related stuff!!!!
Mike
hedgehogey said:
I did a search of the first UFC rules and the only ones that they had were no biting and no eye gouging. Yes, it was stated that there were no rules, but come on man, this is a sport and that being said, there will be rules. Maybe thats the reason why the name got changed from NHB to MMA.
Could you provide a list of rules from these other events?? I find it a little hard to belive that they are totally no rules events. So you're basically saying that they allow biting??
Mike
hedgehogey
Green Belt
MJS said:
Russian absolute: No rules
BVT, IVT, Maybe inoki bom ba ye, and one other VT event I can't remember all restrict only one rule. I can't remember which one only bans biting, which only bans eye gouging and which only bans groin shots. You can see one such event on GJJ in action 2.
Which segues into another thing: It's all legal in the gracie challenge, and that pays even more than most vale tudo events.
hedgehogey said:
And this just shows that there are differences with the NHB/MMA fights. Its impossible to compare something that takes place in the US and something outside of the US. Soooo...why are we still talking about it??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? I actually have a few NHB tapes that took place in Brazil and I saw no biting, eye gouges, etc. Again, things change with the times. What is legal in Brazil, Japan and Russia may not be legal here, so again, we're continuing to beat a dead horse, and its really getting pretty old.
Anyway....back to the main point of this thread which is NOT about MMA/NHB, but about Marc Macyoung!!! I believe that we should be talking about him and the other RBSD guys, not the UFC!
Mike
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
That's the personality type with which you deal in those circles. It's fairly typical. I've seen people like him have the same argument in countless places along the same lines.
T
tmanifold
Guest
I type fast.
Tony
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Balance the physical with intellectual, if you are able.gusano said:
T
tmanifold
Guest
If you put it that way, are correct but I didn't put it that way. What I said is that a week of MMA training would harm someone because they knew just enough to try something they didn't have enough time to learn. A week of a good gross motor skill based combatives program will only enhance her abilities because gross motor skills do not take long to train and retain.
I will tell you that a chin jab doesn't take as much strength as a punch to Ko someone. But even if it did, a KO is only icing on the cake. All that is required is to stun or knock them back a step. A edge of hand to the throat or neck doesn't take a huge amount of strength neither does a stomp to the knee or any of the other techniques I have mentioned.
The main thing is not that someone shouldn't train for 6 month, a year or more but can it be effective right away. Although, to be honest, with combative methods you reach a point of diminishing returns where you are just retaining the skills and enhancing you flexibily in their use.
Tony
it was more of a rhetorical question than anything. I have my own academy also, but I frequently travel to Chicago to train with Carlson Gracie Sr. Where and what does your friend teach?ppko said:
Good answer. I don't type worth a darn, myself. I would like to respond to some of the things I've read in this thread but I don't want to go back and quote everyone line for line.tmanifold said:
The comparison of a belt color in one art to another art is meaningless.
You can't say a BJJ blue belt is equal to a whatever color judo belt or vice versa. It would depend on the rules of the match. In a judo match, the judo player should school the bjj player more times than not. In a bjj match, it should be the opposite. I too, am "only" a blue belt in bjj. I have a student who is a brown belt in judo and a white belt in bjj. I am able to tap him at will. However, in a judo match he would be much harder to beat. What if someone has a blue belt in bjj and lets say a orange belt in judo. If these belts are "equal" to each other, does that mean that he has not increased his skill by training in both arts? In essense, that he would be the same skill level he is now if he had only studied one of either art?
Win/ Loss records, unless you are a professional prize fighter, don't mean anything. Amateur martial arts competitions are a great way to test your skills and improve your game. A brown belt I train with in Chicago believes in entering every tournament he can find to bring his game up to it's peak. He reasons that if you enter a 1000 tournaments and win 10 gold medals, people remember that you are a 10 time gold medal winner, not that you didn't even place in 990!
I would say that if anyone gets a blue belt from Relson in 9 months, he must have some mat skills. It is not uncommon for guys to be 3 year white belts and then remain a blue belt for 5 years in BJJ! In some martial arts you can be a black belt in 1 year! It is not uncommon for it to take 15 years to earn a black belt in BJJ.
T
tmanifold
Guest
It was an equivlent skill level comparison. A blue belt is quite high in many martial arts but is relatively low in BJJ. Most people I know can rank a blue belt in BJJ in under 6 months. I know a few people who have ranked to blue belt just by travelling down to one of the Gracies for a few weeks. A modern Judo vs. BJJ comparison straight up is not fair because they are different games; especially, if you come from a school that does not emphasize mat work. Both the schools I went to were big on the mat work.
Tony
I agree that there are people who have a grappling background that could possibly earn a blue belt in 6 months. But most people? I would say that they are not earning their belts but buying them! There is no way in hell, that most people can earn a blue belt in less than 6 months. I know at Carlson Sr's academy, there are 3 year white belts who should have been blue belts for a year in my opinion. He is hardest on Brazilians. I know a Brazilian blue belt that has been blue for 5 years! He skills are undoubetly purple belt level. Sr believes in a person EARNING his belt. I can't speak for how everyone runs their school, but 6 months or less for a blue belt is ABSURD! I would love to see them spar with some of the white belts in Chicago.tmanifold said:
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