Animal MacYoung on the MAs

[rompida]

I knew I said I wasn't going to post anymore... but heck, I couldn't resist. For all you wondering what gives hedgehogey the "expertise" to criticize MacYoung, or any other seasoned martial artist, here it goes....

6 months Shotokan (everhart)

6 months TKD (DCSDKA)

6 months daito ryu (Quoc dong)

3 years traditional vietnamese (su phoo quoc dong)

2 years muay thai, vo tu do (quoc dong, p cardella)

9 months bjj/vale tudo (relson gracie)


Sorry hedgehogey, but you asked me why I consider you inexperienced. There you go. Talk to us in a few more years. Flame on.

 

[tmanifold]

9 months of BJJ? And you are lecturing me on grappling. Take your experience and say years not months and you have close to my grappling experience.

Oh boy.

 

[hedgehogey]

9 months of BJJ? And you are lecturing me on grappling. Take your experience and say years not months and you have close to my grappling experience.

Oh boy.

School and competition rankings please.

I am a blue belt under relson gracie. austin relson gracie jiujits, 4-4.

And don't forfeit the debate to go ad hominem.

 

[Bod]

Sport fighting is deficient when it comes to self defence. That is not the same as 'sport fighters are deficient at self defence'.

By deficient I don't mean useless, I mean deficient.

I do judo. Judo is a sport-fighting style. As such it is deficient when it comes to self defence. In order to ameliorate this deficiency I prefer to practise a select group of techniques in randori, which are more applicable to self defence.

For example, I try to avoid the double leg takedown. In fact, I try to avoid any technique which does not either control both arms or control one arm from the side of the opponent. Why? The unseen knife problem. Sometimes in my 'backyard' study I or my training partner do a sneaky one, and pick up the rubber knife while the other has his back turned. Pretty soon that led me to only practise techniques which have a better probability against an unseen weapon. The double leg takedown wasn't one of them (think 'knifed in the back').

Hedge, you have to remember that Mr. MacYoung probably isn't speaking to you. I come from a toughish background, and don't need to be told how to spot and avoid trouble, or that technique/sparring/competition ability is not the be all and end all.

I'm always open to suggestion on where trouble may be coming from, but I am more interested in training my technique/sparring/competition ability. But I am not everyone. Some people need to learn this stuff.

Point by point refutation is a pretty stupid way to debate on line. It's quick and easy because you don't have to form a fluent argument for anything, just rail against something. But in the end you find yourself running into a paragraph you agree with. Then you have to rip their spelling, or style. That looks stupid to most people over 15 years old.

Find a point you don't agree with and attack that. Then, come up with something better. That way you'll advance the debate rather than merely retard it.

 

[tmanifold]

Hedge, I have done years of judo, submission wrestling under a frank shamrock instructor, freestyle wrestling, a little sambo and BJJ. That's just the sport grappling. The only one of those which came with a belt was judo. I quit thinking about belts years ago, all I care about is my knowledge. As such most of my knowledge come informally these days. If I don't want the belts, I don't have to pay the high prices. I started as a grappler and never stopped. I am going on 12 years now. I have rolled hundreds of times and probably competed in some form of grappling matches about a hundred times. Wins and losses are sketchy because I didn't keep track but I did medal the last two judo tourneys I went too.

One of the things that really drives me about this debate is you get guys who watched a few UFC or Prides then found a gappling school and are now expert grapplers. Those of us who knew all about grappling way before the UFCs are apparently ignorant now of how grappling works. For those of you who don't know, a blue belt in BJJ is about the same as a yellow belt in Judo, in that it is the first colored belt. In terms of skill level it would probably be given to a high yellow or low orange level player.

The other thing that drives me when argueing with sport fights is that they compare what they could do to a untrained person but then try to compare what an RBSD person would do to a sport fighter. There are a couple problems with that. One, that untrained fighter probably has more real fights under his belt then you do sport matches. He is hardly untrained, he just doesn't have any belt. Second, many RBSD guys are experienced sport fighters. One of the premier combatives instructors out there Carl Cestari has an extensive judo background and his head instructor has an extensive wrestling background. They just released a video set designed to show how to take sport fighting back in to the street.

Lastly, no one is saying sport fighters aren't tough. They are tough like football player, hockey players and soldiers are tough. They are highly athletic and used to absorbing pain to accomplish their goals. They are also highly agressive. If I were to take a 40 year old female and a 26 year old MMAist and train them, it is obvious who would be the more dangerous. What we are saying is that the methods taught sport fighters are not he methods needed for real world self defence. A juji gatame, is a great sport move but is damn near suicide on the street. Also give a housewife a week of training in mma she knows just enough to get herself hurt. Give her a week of training with me and she know just enough to increase her odds of survival.


Tony

 

[hedgehogey]

I've found this to be a common attitude among judo players. They say things like "Oh no, judo isn't for self defense, go to the karate guys for that." When a low level judo player could obviously beat most karate "masters".

It's puzzling, but nevertheless...

First of all, it was the RBSD guys who started the "who-beats-who" debate. Them and certain wing chunnists first came up with the idea of "anti-grappling". It was they who first started saying "sport fighting no good for teh str33t."

I do not fear the untrained man. Why? Because even if he got in two fights every weekend, it still wouldn't add up to a third of my own meager amount of fighting I do every day in class. Sport fighters are better at fighting because it's what they DO. Every day.

What we are saying is that the methods taught sport fighters are not he methods needed for real world self defence. A juji gatame, is a great sport move but is damn near suicide on the street.

Do you have any, yknow, proof of this? Because this appears to be just another "self evident" assumption. You of course know that a juji gatame breaks the arm at the elbow joint. Why are we ASSUMING without proof that it doesn't work on t5h str33t?

Also give a housewife a week of training in mma she knows just enough to get herself hurt. Give her a week of training with me and she know just enough to increase her odds of survival.

Prove it. What exactly are you teaching her that's so special? Kick the groin and kneecap? More eye gouging? Model mugging? "Awareness skills"?

If a technique doesn't work for a 26 years old athlete, it's not gonna work for a 40 year old housewife.

This bears repeating IF A FIT YOUNG ATHLETE CAN'T USE IT, A MIDDLE AGED HOUSEWIFE DEFINETELY CAN'T USE IT.

I've seen "women's self defense" up close when I watched both of my mother's IMPACT graduations. It's bollocks. All of it. (Mom does bjj with me now and I am much more confident in her self defense ability.)

By the way, a blue belt is a certificate of the ability to beat every white belt at the school. It can take two years to earn.

What's your competition record?

 

[tmanifold]

If a technique doesn't work for a 26 years old athlete, it's not gonna work for a 40 year old housewife.

That's true but if it does work for a 26 year old athlete, it may not work for a 40 year old housewife. Sportfighting methods are designed for the athlete not the housewife. Lets use juji gatame. Lets assume we use it as a break not a submission. In an ideal situation, you would catch the arm quickly and break it. However, life is rarely ideal. A pooched juji leaves you in a very bad postion. If you manage to get it but he grabs his arms, it can take a lot of strength or time to break it. A housewife with a week of training is not going to be able to do it. A sportfighter with a year or more will have the experience to use leverage to help break it but could still take more time then you want to be dealling with it.

I've found this to be a common attitude among judo players.

I don't agree. I think most judo player feel they could hammer the karate guys if they play under their rules. I also believe that old school judo is a great self defence system. Modern Judo not so much.

even if he got in two fights every weekend, it still wouldn't add up to a third of my own meager amount of fighting I do every day in class.

But he is really fighting. You are just playing. Serious play but still play. You say you have eight fights under your belt now, so I am sure you know that real competion and sparring are not the same. The same goes for real fighting vs sparring or even competion. Competition has a lot of parallels but comparing it to real fighting is probably analagous to comparing sparring to real competion.

Prove it. What exactly are you teaching her that's so special?

How? How can I prove something like that? I am teaching simple effective technique that anyone can use. A chin jab is a powerful technique that has been proven effective in real combat, not sport. A knee to the groin works, I can verify that from both ends of the equation. Eye gouges are simple and effective. So is a foot or knee stomp. It isn't so much what I am teaching, it is what I am not teaching.

First of all, it was the RBSD guys who started the "who-beats-who" debate.

That is just plain false. These arguements have been going on since before RBSD was RBSD. In particular though, this grappling/MMA argurment is only about less then ten years old. Before the UFC no one could use an arguement that "it works in the octogon" so it must work on the street.

By the way, a blue belt is a certificate of the ability to beat every white belt at the school. It can take two years to earn.

Or six months or apparently 9 months.. The blue belt curriculm that I have seen is very similar to the yellow orange belt curriculum of most judo schools. Depending on the judo school, some orange belts are more advanced on the ground than that. My last judo club spent about an hour of every practice on Ne waza.

What's your competition record?

I don't know. Some of this stuff goes back 12 years. Like I said, the last two Judo tourneys I went to, I stood on the podium.

Tony

 

[hedgehogey]

That's true but if it does work for a 26 year old athlete, it may not work for a 40 year old housewife. Sportfighting methods are designed for the athlete not the housewife. Lets use juji gatame. Lets assume we use it as a break not a submission. In an ideal situation, you would catch the arm quickly and break it. However, life is rarely ideal. A pooched juji leaves you in a very bad postion. If you manage to get it but he grabs his arms, it can take a lot of strength or time to break it. A housewife with a week of training is not going to be able to do it. A sportfighter with a year or more will have the experience to use leverage to help break it but could still take more time then you want to be dealling with it.

EVERYTHING takes strength. You are not going to teach anybody something in only a week that will signifigantly improve their fighting ability. That's because, even if you drilled the technique until it was pat, you wouldn't have enough time for the essential live contact sparring to truly "own" the technique.

I don't agree. I think most judo player feel they could hammer the karate guys if they play under their rules. I also believe that old school judo is a great self defence system. Modern Judo not so much.

Even throw oriented modern judo beats 99% of karate. It even beats heavyweight boxers (see lebell vs savage).

Hell, see yoshida vs silva. Yoshida managed to go the distance with "the axe murderer". I wouldn't give a shotokan black belt fifteen seconds versus silva.

But he is really fighting. You are just playing. Serious play but still play. You say you have eight fights under your belt now, so I am sure you know that real competion and sparring are not the same. The same goes for real fighting vs sparring or even competion. Competition has a lot of parallels but comparing it to real fighting is probably analagous to comparing sparring to real competion.

Sure, I know all about TEH STR33T. I'm from a "bad" place, been shot at once, etc.

Every str33tfight i've ever been in doesn't add up to the difficulty of one competition fight.

How? How can I prove something like that? I am teaching simple effective technique that anyone can use. A chin jab is a powerful technique that has been proven effective in real combat, not sport.

Proven huh? How about pics? Videos?

A knee to the groin works, I can verify that from both ends of the equation.

It sure don't work on me, and i'm a buck fifty soaking wet. It won't work on a huge ex con.

Eye gouges are simple and effective. So is a foot or knee stomp. It isn't so much what I am teaching, it is what I am not teaching.

Bollock. What you're "not teaching" is everything useful. If you really cared about women's self defense, you'd be teaching things like mount escapes and guard work, and would be having them fight with real, aggresive opponents.

That is just plain false. These arguements have been going on since before RBSD was RBSD. In particular though, this grappling/MMA argurment is only about less then ten years old. Before the UFC no one could use an arguement that "it works in the octogon" so it must work on the street.

We certainly didn't invent the term "anti-grappling".

 

[loki09789]

Taken from the MacYoung Website:

In the hope of redirecting this thread back on topic, the following information was taken directly from MacYoungs own website. It doesn't look like he is bashing the richness of martial arts to me as much as he is saying that the current trend is not a practice that is aligned to what the 'street' can through at you. THere is more than 'fighting' needed to be self defense prepared according to his sight.

It might be better if the current tangent of "my style of practice and I are superior than all this other stuff" were to be take to its own thread. The original intent was to discuss MacYoung and his statements about martial arts.

"Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. It's always about Marcia!"

The ultimate Streetfighter -- NOT
If you're interested in learning the "ultimate martial art," he is not your man. As Bob Taylor once said of him "There are a lot of people who can beat Animal on the mat with rules, but they wouldn't walk out of a dark alley after tangling with him, because he'd run them over with a truck." This is true because violence is not a game for him, but a horrible reality. One that, since he knows it first hand, he would like to help other people to avoid. Encouraging people to be violent like he was is not what he is about.
He's come a long way from his violent and savage past. Putting it simply, "he's mellowed." He no longer has to be that dangerous, angry and violent person he was. Unfortunately, this leads many people to think that the funny, bouncy, happy-go-lucky little ferret he is now can't turn into the vicious wolverine he once was. This is not true, when it comes to violence, he has "a gift." A gift, that while it helped him survive extreme violence, countless fights and altercations, these days he prefers to leave it slumbering in his subconscious. The Beast was awakened within him many years ago and he has learned how to live with it and not let it rule his life anymore. It is something about him that truly dangerous people around the world have looked into his eyes and recognized as something they don't want to tangle with.

The sad thing is many keyboard warriors, cyber-street fighters and dojo darlings fail to see this about him. They take his message of avoidance, prevention and de-escalation as "proof" that he hasn't been there. In their eyes, "why should someone who is so good at fighting avoid it?" That is a very silly and juvenile question. Those who have "been there" know what he is by his words, actions and the subtle cues he sends out; they recognize the Beast part of him and are thankful that it isn't out hunting anymore, because that part of him is extremely cold-blooded and nasty.

Unfortunately, these signals often go zipping right past internet warriors, kung-fu-killer-commandos and MacKarate masters...who will go to great lengths to tell you why they know better what's involved in "real fighting." If someone thinks they know better, his response is both simple and from the Beast: Vaya con Dios, Mo'fo. Go with God...because, he's the only one who will be able to save your ***.

If you go down that dark path it's on your head and no amount of training in some macho ultimate fighting system will save you. If you insist on going swaggering down alleys and picking fights, it's likely some nasty person - like he was - will just blow your head off when you turn your back on him. That's the reality of street fighting that Marc knows and teaches. But that isn't what a whole lot of people who are looking for the "ultimate street fighting system" want to hear or learn. They want to learn how to fight and beat streetfighters...with no idea how street violence really occurs.

The bad news is the Beast aspect of him has little tolerance for macho fantasy about what is involved in a "real fight." The good news is that aspect isn't the one who does the teaching. Marc is very analytical and will try his best to explain to people what is involved with violence and the best ways to survive it. What's more he rechecks his work. Nothing he teaches hasn't been field tested and reviewed by professionals in this and other field. He is one of the few self defense instructors who puts his information through peer review to see if he is missing anything. What's more, he will refer people to these other experts as proof that he isn't making this information up.

Of greater import to him, however, is that his students learn and grow as people. He is not looking to create a cult of adoring worshipers. He is not seeking to certify others in his reality based fighting system. He is here to help you. He does this by having levels of goals. His self-defense goal is to help people stay alive when violence occurs, not "win," but survive. (Which as he knows all too well is often the best you can hope for in an actual violent encounter). His martial arts goal to help people grow in their understanding of what they do already. His overall goal is to help people grow and learn. It is a painful path that he walked to get out of where he was and these days it is one of the greatest joys in his life to see others growing and learning as well.

This is why the photo gallery is not filled with impressive photos of him looking tough or taking dangerous poses to show what a bad *** he is. It is instead filled with photos of him teaching and having a good time with people he works with and respects.

 

[MJS]

Very good post Paul!!! :asian: I, like you, also hope that this thread can get back on topic. I havent really posted much on this thread, because it seems like it was taking the same road of some other threads...the sport vs. traditional vs MMA/NHB, etc.

I really dont think that the intention of this thread was to compare this to that, but instead to talk about "Animal" and the other RBSD guys that are out there.

I have read some about Marc, and IMO, he does have some good things to offer. Is everyone gonna agree with what he says?? Of course not. But like I said in my last post here, take what is usefull and discard the rest. If even one thing can be gained from what he says, that is what counts.

Mike

 

[tmanifold]

I am sorry this thread has drifted, Hedge wants to make this about me and him not about Animal or RBSD, hence is comments about my record. If I could condense what Animal is saying into one phrase it would probably be: Train for what you are going to do. If you sport fight train for sport, or if you are worried about the street train with the street in mind. Don't train for sport and hope it transfers over.

I am not saying - nor is Animal - that sport fighters aren't tough. I would have considered myself a sportfighter up until a couple of years ago, and I have known some amazing sport fighters that could and did transfer that to the street. I know of one kickboxing champion that knocked out an individual in a bar with a roundhouse to the head. We know those work in competion (Smith, Lidell and others have shown that) but do we really believe we shoudl be using those for Self Defense?

That you fight the way you train has been said so many times it is a cliche but that doesn't make it any less true. If you practice, high round kicks, struggling for an armbar or patiently working the guard, you will do these things in combat. These they will probably not work (although they might, I now know 3 people who have used high round kicks in a fight succesfully).

What I, Animal and most RBSD people are saying is the best way to practice Real SD is to make the scenarios as close to real as possible. We know that we can never truely replicate it but we do the best we can. We also try and make it the worst possible scenario we can think of. That means groups, weapons, firearms, enclosed spaces. I know of one instructor who does things like using googles with vaseline on one eye piece to simulate getting poked in the eye. He also sets up strobe light and loud music to simulate a bar.

I like sparring and I think it is an excellent tool. I like to use it (especially grappling) as a warm up. It is a great work out and it get you used to moving someone who doesn't want to move while he is trying to do the same thing. But it is just a single tool, not the be all and end all of combat.

Since my true interest lays in Mlitary Combatives (I am in the military) I will give you a list of what I think should be in every combatives program. Most of it will apply to civilians, especially in the states.

Gross motor skill strikes- chin jab, edge of hand, low kicks, right cross, tiger claw, etc.
Stand up grappling concepts - controlling the inside, stay low and wide, mix with strikes, takedowns
Ground grappling - postional fighting ie. gaining and maintaining dominate postion, Mount escapes, getting to your feet from the guard (top and bottom)
Chokes and neck cranks/breaks
Arresting techniques
Use of force ladder
De-escalation / conflict resolution skills
Non lethal weapons -asp baton/stick, etc
Firearms - longarm, pistol
Knife work
Defense against weapons
Weapon retention skills
Situational awareness - when to engage and when to wait for back up or retreat
Mulitiple opponent strategies

RBSD and combatives deal with that whole gamut (with the possible exception of firearms or arresting techniques depending on the school or situation) and they have to do it in a short time. Sport fighting programs deal with, up to, the first four (you could probably include arresting techniques since they are in many cases submissions). As such the techniques they use predominatly are the ones that work best in those situations. These are the one they train 90 percent of the time. Some of those techniques work great in the street some don't. the same goes for TMA as well. A reverse punch works were ever you throw it, be it the dojo, the ring or the street. A spinning reverse kick, maybe not so flexible. The trick, I believe is to find the techniques that work best in the enviroment you enviroment you plan to fight in. It is also to train against techniques that you are likely going to see. What good is defending against a juji when you will likely never see that in the street?

I personally use a lot of sport figting methods, perhaps more than many other RBSD exponenets, because I have a long sport fighting background and that is what I know best. I just try to take what will easily translate to a street enviroment. One of the knife defenses I teach, essentially starts with an armdrag. I also have long advocated that people who can do some sport fighting, to do so. It will do nothing but toughen you up. One must remember that sport fighting is rule based fighting and that many techniques that are succesful are so because the rule allow them to be.

One last thing that needs mentioning:

That's because, even if you drilled the technique until it was pat, you wouldn't have enough time for the essential live contact sparring to truly "own" the technique.

This is the reason for the reliance on gross motor skills. They have been proven to be easier to retain and use effectively. For as far back as Fairbairn or as recently as Peyton Quinn, people have been learning to use gross motor skill techniques effectively in under a week.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I find a great deal of the material on this thread to be wrong-headed, and in many cases actively dangerous--which is odd, because the more I read about Mr. Mac Young, the more rational and accurate he seems.

You should teach women dismounts and all the rest right away, as opposed to stuff like arch stomps and eye-pokes and, yes, knees to the groin? or even better, how to park the car and get into the house safely?

You can learn to use, "gross motor skills," and defend yourself in a week?

I have to say that I don't see a great deal of understanding of teaching, or learning, here.

Among other things, Fairbairn was not teaching novices or ordinary people. he was teaching already-trained soldiers, in wartime--young men, very highly motivated. In fact, he was teaching the cream of the physical crop, because for the most part he was teaching the elite--young, gifted athletes in special forces. Nor was he teaching self-defense: he was teaching killing. Personally, I think too many martial artists lose sight of who they are and what it is they're studying.

Mac Young, from what's been described here, teaches exactly what the traditional arts have taught: use your brain first and avoid fighting if at all possible, because once It starts, you are in the world of Bad Things whatever happens.

Looks to me, so far, like he's right.

 

[ppko]

I am sorry this thread has drifted, Hedge wants to make this about me and him not about Animal or RBSD, hence is comments about my record. If I could condense what Animal is saying into one phrase it would probably be: Train for what you are going to do. If you sport fight train for sport, or if you are worried about the street train with the street in mind. Don't train for sport and hope it transfers over.

I am not saying - nor is Animal - that sport fighters aren't tough. I would have considered myself a sportfighter up until a couple of years ago, and I have known some amazing sport fighters that could and did transfer that to the street. I know of one kickboxing champion that knocked out an individual in a bar with a roundhouse to the head. We know those work in competion (Smith, Lidell and others have shown that) but do we really believe we shoudl be using those for Self Defense?

I have nothing to do with this conversation but that is what hedge does he just wants proof that everybody that makes claims can be proven. Hedge and I are not the best of friends and I still stand behind that just because you are a good NHB fighter doesn't make you a good street fighter. With that said the only way to get hedge off of your back is to provide him with some proof that will satisfy him

PPKO

 

[tmanifold]

I have nothing to do with this conversation but that is what hedge does he just wants proof that everybody that makes claims can be proven. Hedge and I are not the best of friends and I still stand behind that just because you are a good NHB fighter doesn't make you a good street fighter. With that said the only way to get hedge off of your back is to provide him with some proof that will satisfy him

PPKO

I really don't care if hedge is on my back, it's no big deal. I mean the guy doesn't even believe a knee to the nuts is an effective technique. :idunno: I am not going to go out with a video camera and try and get mugged so some novice on an internet forum will "see the light". If he doesn't agree with the way I see things, He is the only one who could suffer. Also I am beginning to think there is no proof that will satisfy him. Example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmanifold


How are these wrong? If you are trying to stay up and fight as Animal expouses and you go to the ground, then #1 is right, you F *@$ed up. As a stand up fighter you should be on your feet so 2 is right also.

You assume that without proof. What nonanecdotal evidence do you have for that?

That is simple logic. It does not require proof as the proof is in the statement. It goes like this:
A stand up fighter will remain standing if he does everthing right.
Person A is a stand up fighter
Person A ended up on the ground
Therefore Person A F#$%ed up

You can learn to use, "gross motor skills," and defend yourself in a week?

I am not saying point blank that they can defend themselves in a week. No amount of instruction will make people able to defend themselves. All I can do is give them the tools. What I am saying is that gross motor skill movement can be easily learned an retained. A chin jab can be learned and retained in HOURS. It doesn't require precise form just a general movement that is easy to remember and preform.

Fairbairn was not teaching novices or ordinary people. he was teaching already-trained soldiers, in wartime--young men, very highly motivated.

Fairbairn is just one person among many that were teaching these or similar methods during WW2 as well as before and after. Others include Applegate, O'Niell, Derewelysk, Hancock, Kahn, Hanley and Cosneck just to name a few. also Fairbairn taught women as did Derewelysk and others. I know of a story of one gentlemen who was held up some 40 years after the war and he instantly attacked with the methods he was taught (edge of the hand blows mostly) and he successfully defeated his assailant. If he can do it in his 60s (maybe older I don't recall) so can you.

Tony

 

[loki09789]

Very good post Paul!!! :asian: I, like you, also hope that this thread can get back on topic. I havent really posted much on this thread, because it seems like it was taking the same road of some other threads...the sport vs. traditional vs MMA/NHB, etc.

I really dont think that the intention of this thread was to compare this to that, but instead to talk about "Animal" and the other RBSD guys that are out there.

I have read some about Marc, and IMO, he does have some good things to offer. Is everyone gonna agree with what he says?? Of course not. But like I said in my last post here, take what is usefull and discard the rest. If even one thing can be gained from what he says, that is what counts.

Mike

Well, in keeping with the idea of going to the source, I actually emailed Mr. MacYoung via his website contact and invited him, if he is interested to make himself available to answer questions and discuss his ideas and training approach.

Honestly, I think he will not participate because he will read this stuff, roll his eyes and see how it affirms his ideas and move on. He also has a discussion forum linked to his website for those who have the gonads to take their disputes to him directly. I personally agree with his approach. I am sure that there will be details and specifics that I wouldn't agree with here and there if I could train with him, but that is personal practice/stylistic differences that don't amount to much. The ideas fit the reality of what real self defense needs: Smarts, skill/ability and judgement.

 

[hedgehogey]

That is simple logic. It does not require proof as the proof is in the statement. It goes like this:
A stand up fighter will remain standing if he does everthing right.
Person A is a stand up fighter
Person A ended up on the ground
Therefore Person A F#$%ed up

Sometimes the art f***s up. For instance, a TKDer begins the fight with a sidekick then follows it up with a jump spinning crescent kick. Predictably, the opponent jams the TKDer's kick and he falls to the ground. That could happen even if the technique was delivered with perfect form and power.

I am not saying point blank that they can defend themselves in a week. No amount of instruction will make people able to defend themselves. All I can do is give them the tools. What I am saying is that gross motor skill movement can be easily learned an retained. A chin jab can be learned and retained in HOURS. It doesn't require precise form just a general movement that is easy to remember and preform.

That's a pretty outrageous claim right there. Have you missed the whole point of "aliveness"? Seriously, how in the hell are you going to give a 40 year old soccer mom with no power whatsoever knockout power in a few hours instruction? Do you REALLY believe that's possible? Cause that's pure bullshido if you do. Even if her technique was perfect, she lacks the physical strength and familiarity with aggresion to use it! HOW IN THE WORLD DOES A WOMAN WHO CAN'T LIFT FIFTY POUNDS SUDDENLY BECOME ABLE TO INCAPACITATE A LARGE, AGGRESIVE MAN WITH ONLY A WEEK'S INSTRUCTION?

There are no shortcuts in the MA. It takes hundreds of hours of dedication and hard sparring.

You are giving these women very dangerously inflated views of their own abilities and if one of them gets raped it's YOUR fault.

 

[Tgace]

Yes.... self defense is totally hopeless unless you pack on 50lbs of muscle, train for years (must be MMA/BJJ though), and make certain you get some nice tribal tattoos....seriously, Ive been accidentally poked in the eye by a 3yo and couldnt see straight for a while, caught an elbow/knee to the temple by a teen girl that "rang my bell" pretty good. Sorry, I think that proper "self defense" techniques, properly taught can work.....that being said they should be taught as "last ditch" emergency options. Who said anybody was telling 40 yo women they were killing machines after taking a SD course anyway?????????

 

[loki09789]

There are no shortcuts in the MA. It takes hundreds of hours of dedication and hard sparring.

You are giving these women very dangerously inflated views of their own abilities and if one of them gets raped it's YOUR fault.

Okay....I see that the adult conversations have started up again.

The disconnect here seems to be in stylistic/situational goals and intent. In grappling arts, MMA, submission fighting the goal is to 'win' the match with power striking techniques and out maneuvering the SINGLE opponent with technique and local/general muscular strength and endurance. That requires a different set of skills and different fitness standard than self defense focused martial arts.

Self defense focused training is about judgement, awareness, tool usage, legal/societal understanding (use of force/deadly force) along with the martial arts techniques. The GOAL and INTENT of self defense martial arts is the quick hit and escape. That means that you train to create distraction and dysfunction of your opponent and not to force them to SUBMIT within some spoken or unspoken set of rules.

Take for instance the idea of attacking the throat or the hands. If you can affect the airway (including muscular contraction because of impact) the bad guy isn't so interested in attacking you anymore. YOU RUN! If you damage the hand reaching for your or holding you by creating dysfunction (break, dislocation, temporary nerve damage) he can't use it to grab hold you and you RUN... are you seeing a common theme?

Self Defense/physical technique training is like an immediate action/counter ambush drill in the infantry. It is something you do when you have to because the other skills of tactical awareness have not worked. You do it automatically, quickly and then you get out of there and regroup.

ALL those skills are important in combination. You are focusing on only one aspect and not even considering how the art has to be tailored to the person/situation. WHy are there so many "90 pound weaklings" of old master instructors who can still pound some of the young studs. Even the original Gracie, as an old man with far less muscular strength than the young studs was kicking *** and taking names. It is not youth and muscle but it is wisdom and skill.

If you fight like you write, you would be so easy to trigger and bait.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There ya go: grown-up reality.

And why are some of the posters on this thread abruptly contradicting things they've been saying?

Oh well. I agree; a big chunk of what good martial arts instruction teaches is rational self-defense--which, most certainly, includes staying out of trouble first and foremost.

 

[loki09789]

There ya go: grown-up reality.

And why are some of the posters on this thread abruptly contradicting things they've been saying?

What?