An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?

[now disabled]

Are there any people you consider respected aikidoka that actually fight against resisting opponents? All I can ever find are videos of cooperative drills involving completely unrealistic attacks, and students throwing themselves around, sometimes without even being touched(as was the case in a video of a respected master of aikido you posted in the other aikido thread.

If I could find even one single vid of ANYONE successfully doing aikido techniques in a fight,(master or no master) just one, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes I remember what you called him

you go find ok you go look then do as I suggested and we will talk

 

[now disabled]

If it was that exchange, it was me, though that's a misinterpretation of my point.

I'll take the heat bro it cool lol

 

[Steve]

If what PGSmith and I have said is true (Aikido is meant to make a martial artist better), then the more realistic expectation would be that a skilled martial artist who added Aikido would be better than one who didn't. There aren't enough of those to get anything like a reasonable conclusion, I think.

This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.

 

[now disabled]

Are there any people you consider respected aikidoka that actually fight against resisting opponents? All I can ever find are videos of cooperative drills involving completely unrealistic attacks, and students throwing themselves around, sometimes without even being touched(as was the case in a video of a respected master of aikido you posted in the other aikido thread.)

If I could find even one single vid of ANYONE successfully doing aikido techniques in a fight,(master or no master) just one, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

You might even find one or two where an Aikidoka is in a demo with say TKD or Karate or just another Aikidoka .....you are the one that is always saying this or that is fake etc etc so if you find a decent one that is not a teaching seminar then do a crit on it and then I will see if you are getting what they are doing or trying to or not....not being nasty or having a go .....and don't pick any of the ones that are cage fights as I doubt the person claimed to be an Aikidoka actually is just look for plain and simple ok

 

[Steve]

I'll take the heat bro it cool lol

I don't feel like I've applied any heat so far. My intent is to make my points without any heat at all.

 

[now disabled]

This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.

possibly but then again could it be how some are viewing what is said ? ie they have bigger expectations than can be filled in what they see as a time scale ?

 

[Hanzou]

Shows how little I know. I thought in boxing, if a boxer went to the floor for any reason, his opponent was not allowed to touch him and would be sent to a neutral corner pending a check of the person on the mat.

I thought striking was not allowed in wrestling. Are you thinking of scripted commercial wrestling or sport competition wrestling. I must caution my grandson who has been in middle school wrestling, and is entering high school this year.

I am also surprised to learn that there is a Competitive Sport Ruleset that controls two very different sport/arts.

You're not quite understanding my point. My point was that despite their limited rule-sets, boxing and wrestling has some very practical applications that have been applied in a vacuum, and throughout martial arts. For example, Bjj and MMA incorporate wrestling takedowns. Some forms of modern karate have implemented boxing.

Additionally boxers and wrestlers are generally respected as very tough fighters, and plenty of professionals consider either system to be a good base if you wish to be a professional fighter.

The same simply cant be said about Aikido.

I think I agree with you on Aikido, at least that it shouldn't have a rule set that limits it. No non-sport martial art should have imho, other than not to damage a practice opponent. You quickly run out of practice opponents that way.

What is interesting is that in Gracie JJ the competitive side (sport BJJ and MMA) is what has forced the evolution of the system.

 

[Martial D]

You might even find one or two where an Aikidoka is in a demo with say TKD or Karate or just another Aikidoka .....you are the one that is always saying this or that is fake etc etc so if you find a decent one that is not a teaching seminar then do a crit on it and then I will see if you are getting what they are doing or trying to or not....not being nasty or having a go .....and don't pick any of the ones that are cage fights as I doubt the person claimed to be an Aikidoka actually is just look for plain and simple ok

I've never said anything is fake. All I've ever done is ask you to support your continued claims, which you have consistently refused to do.

Telling me that the only way to know is to spend 30 years doing aikido doesn't really work, because that begs the question of where all these effective fighters with that 30 years are hiding. I don't need to understand aikido to see someone else use it successfully.

 

[Steve]

possibly but then again could it be how some are viewing what is said ? ie they have bigger expectations than can be filled in what they see as a time scale ?

To be honest, if I'm looking at a scale and "application if skill in context" is one side, I think that side is empty if the context is self defense.

Said more directly, it's clear that people who train aikido get better at aikido. You can even see clearly that folks who train long enough get really good at it. I don't see how one could suggest that any of this relates to fighting or self defense.

 

[now disabled]

I've never said anything is fake. All I've ever done is ask you to support your continued claims, which you have consistently refused to do.

Telling me that the only way to know is to spend 30 years doing aikido doesn't really work, because that begs the question of where all these effective fighters with that 30 years are hiding. I don't need to understand aikido to see someone else use it successfully.

Ah there again we will differ as if you don't understand then you will not get the principles and concepts and as you keep saying I refuse then take the initiative and prove your points with a full crit and breakdown

also i still waiting or you to tell me where Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100%

 

[Martial D]

Ah there again we will differ as if you don't understand then you will not get the principles and concepts and as you keep saying I refuse then take the initiative and prove your points with a full crit and breakdown

also i still waiting or you to tell me where Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100%

Why do you keep dodging questions? Do you know what a red herring fallacy is?

Again, it doesn't matter who agrees with me, or how much aikido I understand or don't understand.

Do you need to be a master carpenter to watch one build a cabinet?

Do I need to be a bjj black belt to watch someone get submitted?

Do I need to be a champion boxer to watch a title fight?

If you answered no to these questions, why should I need to understand aikido to see THAT work?

 

[now disabled]

To be honest, if I'm looking at a scale and "application if skill in context" is one side, I think that side is empty if the context is self defense.

Said more directly, it's clear that people who train aikido get better at aikido. You can even see clearly that folks who train long enough get really good at it. I don't see how one could suggest that any of this relates to fighting or self defense.

again and not being nasty it the principles and concepts that are alluding folks

bro you use aiki everyday in life you may not see it that way but you do ....but that is not the whole picture of Aikido and that is what takes the time ......no one i don't think has ever claimed Aikido would turn out fighters ....mind you back at the start there were a few judoka that were sent to ueshiba to train and they did compete one fairly successfully now there must have been a reason why they went to ueshiba and kano sent some ?! was that just out of fun or was there something else?

 

[now disabled]

Why do you keep dodging questions? Do you know what a red herring fallacy is?

Again, it doesn't matter who agrees with me, or how much aikido I understand or don't understand.

Do you need to be a master carpenter to watch one build a cabinet?

Do I need to be a bjj black belt to watch someone get submitted?

Do I need to be a champion boxer to watch a title fight?

If you answered no to these questions, why should I need to understand aikido to see THAT work?

I am not dodging I am saying you do a full crit and then present it and then I will see how much your getting at what your not getting then maybe fill in the gaps

and you still have not answered the question you said Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100% I asked where as I again would like to see what you are interpreting as agreement and if in fact that is the case or if it just your take

 

[Hanzou]

If what PGSmith and I have said is true (Aikido is meant to make a martial artist better), then the more realistic expectation would be that a skilled martial artist who added Aikido would be better than one who didn't. There aren't enough of those to get anything like a reasonable conclusion, I think.

Perhaps more on the mental side and far less on the martial side. Again, similar to Tai Chi or Yoga which improve your art beyond merely the physical?

Despite my personal respect for Roy Dean, I haven't really seen much in his attempt to merge Aikido with Bjj. It certainly hasn't pushed Bjj the way Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, and MMA have. I find that really surprising and a little disappointing, since wrist locks are legal in some levels of competitive Bjj, and you would think that cross-training in Aikido would give you some mean wrist locks.

 

[Martial D]

I am not dodging I am saying you do a full crit and then present it and then I will see how much your getting at what your not getting then maybe fill in the gaps

and you still have not answered the question you said Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100% I asked where as I again would like to see what you are interpreting as agreement and if in fact that is the case or if it just your take

I have no idea what you are talking about with the agree 100% thing. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. You'll have to quote me.

As for the ful crit thing, I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean. If you mean critique, I would need to see someone actually use it in a fight(as the context here is combat effectiveness).

As I have never seen aikido stuff pulled off in a fight or sparring(or even in a tomiki tournement), I have nothing to critique, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.

 

[Hanzou]

I am not dodging I am saying you do a full crit and then present it and then I will see how much your getting at what your not getting then maybe fill in the gaps

and you still have not answered the question you said Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100% I asked where as I again would like to see what you are interpreting as agreement and if in fact that is the case or if it just your take

There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido; Literally throwing people around the room without touching them. It's complete BS of course, but that is what the founder of Aikido was doing and its all on tape.

I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.

 

[Martial D]

There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido. Literally throwing people around the room without touching them.

I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.

Ya, those videos of an old master throwing around a room full of students doesn't do the art any favours. Those guys need to consult with pro wrestling to learn how to sell.

 

[now disabled]

I have no idea what you are talking about with the agree 100% thing. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. You'll have to quote me.

As for the ful crit thing, I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean. If you mean critique, I would need to see someone actually use it in a fight(as the context here is combat effectiveness).

As I have never seen aikido stuff pulled off in a fight or sparring(or even in a tomiki tournement), I have nothing to critique, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.

no your are saying combat effectiveness not me lol

I am saying go find something that you thing is all wrong by a respected shihan and break it down and then present

 

[now disabled]

Ya, those videos of an old master throwing around a room full of students doesn't do the art any favours. Those guys need to consult with pro wrestling to learn how to sell.

you missed the point there but I ain't going back to that as you actually slagged of my teachers teacher so that is not happening again

 

[Martial D]

no your are saying combat effectiveness not me lol

I am saying go find something that you thing is all wrong by a respected shihan and break it down and then present

I feel as though I am talking to a wall.

You've made that claim many times. Two examples from this thread are that you claimed aikido has tools to deal with wrestlers, and that classical aikido works for a fight but only if you use small circles rather than large. You also claimed to have used it in fighting 'many times'.

Let's try to keep things honest here ok? Calling me out on things I didn't say and denying you said things you did say is very dishonest.