An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?

[Hanzou]

I am sure there is something to what you say above. But I don't see an answer in there about differing rule sets. You are describing different reasons for studying one of three martial arts, not how different rules sets might place one at a disadvantage against another. Or don't you think competition rules of different arts give them advantages over arts that don't learn competition within those rules?

Boxing's rule set is only limiting if the boxer gets taken down. On its feet, boxers can hang with anyone. Wrestlers rule set is only limiting if they encounter excellent striking, or they're dealing with submission grappling. Both of their rulesets come from competitive sports.

People are finding it difficult to see exactly where Aikido is effective. Since it isn't a competitive sport, it really shouldn't have a rule set that limits what it can do, but it does.

 

[Hanzou]

The other little thing ya gotta remember is Aikido is not only about applying the tech you have to learn how to take the ukemi and do the breakfalls or you will not last long .......you might think that is stupid but it far from it and that does put folks of as many do not like taking but only like giving

(and befre someone tries to say ukemi and breakfalls are the same well sorry nope you can take ukemi and not need to break fall but just another little bit of nothing lol )

I don't think that's stupid at all. Such practice exists in Judo and Bjj as well. I think the difference is that there's a point where we can train against fully resisting opponents while Aikidoka cannot and are kind of stuck with non-resistant and even compliant training partners.

 

[now disabled]

I don't think that's stupid at all. Such practice exists in Judo and Bjj as well. I think the difference is that there's a point where we can train against fully resisting opponents while Aikidoka cannot and are kind of stuck with non-resistant and even compliant training partners.

Maybe at the start that is so but not as you get further on ...and resisting can take many different levels to from trying to reverse a tech to preventing the original tech go for thereby having to flow into another to coming at you with intent and even Kai used in the proper fashion can be resisting

Yes I have no doubt what you have seen was like that but if you had gone full force could you at your level in Aikido taken the breakfall ...not being cheeky or nasty yes you could break fall in bjj or judo and that great but when it comes to the big high falls or face first falls that maybe you could but until you'd reached a certain level no high grade would put you in that position.


You might have read before that I said you can tell most times by the ukes feet if they are flipping for the nage or he is actually throwing them. you may also have heard or read that yes you want to good at applying techs (nage) but you also and this is just as important are a really good uke and by that I mean take the full on breakfalls resist and take good ukemi as that is how the person applying the tech really starts to learn and that does take time to do


If you see the demos from the big schools the uke are not low level students they will be yondan, godan or even higher depending on who is demonstrating they will be very unlikely to be low ranks and that to can make it look fake as the uke can take the big falls and make it look good doesn't mean it faked (that said in a public demo it is set up for sure so there no ummmm accidents and looking bad ) ....yes in the big dojos where there are deshi then yup that is part and parcel of the training ...for the public classes you are the teachers uke and you better learn fast to take it and give good ukemi as if not you will get your balls chewed (in private and oh so politely )

 

[Hanzou]

Maybe at the start that is so but not as you get further on ...and resisting can take many different levels to from trying to reverse a tech to preventing the original tech go for thereby having to flow into another to coming at you with intent and even Kai used in the proper fashion can be resisting

Given the results we're seeing out of Aikido black belts who have attempted to test their Aikido skills against non-Aikido practicioners, I simply can't buy this assessment. There's certainly "levels" of resistance, and it would appear that Aikido practicioners are practicing very low resistance training. Again, it sounds nice in theory, but the real-world results are simply not panning out.

 

[now disabled]

Given the results we're seeing out of Aikido black belts who have attempted to test their Aikido skills against non-Aikido practicioners, I simply can't buy this assessment. There's certainly "levels" of resistance, and it would appear that Aikido practicioners are practicing very low resistance training. Again, it sounds nice in theory, but the real-world results are simply not panning out.

the results you are seeing ...and is that based on actual experience or merely the wonderful internet ?

again that is your summation and you are entitled to it but unless you are saying you have studied the art and faced Aikidoka at full pelt them I will take issue with you

And what results are you expecting ?

 

[now disabled]

Given the results we're seeing out of Aikido black belts who have attempted to test their Aikido skills against non-Aikido practicioners, I simply can't buy this assessment. There's certainly "levels" of resistance, and it would appear that Aikido practicioners are practicing very low resistance training. Again, it sounds nice in theory, but the real-world results are simply not panning out.

The classes you attended obviously you are not impressed at and that is fine ...but did you give it the right amount of time as most of what you have said is the same old thing time after time that has been said many times and most often by those who don't get Aikido at all and that does actually come over fairly clearly

As you said you've followed that guys channel for a while then why pray tel is one minute he is posting vids of Aikidoka and interacting with Aikidoka then it nope everything Aikido stands for is wrong and because he can't fight then that it it all crap lol..........to me it toys outta the pram really

 

[pgsmith]

My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...

First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.

Second, I think the fellow has a strong need to be noticed. He was obviously not good enough to be noticed for his abilities, so he had to come up with another angle to get people to notice him. Seems like that was very successful.

Third, based on my experiences in Aikido, and in Japanese martial arts in general, I believe that too many people (including most aikidoka) no longer view aikido in the manner in which it was originally meant to be used. The way I see it, aikido was created as a way to teach a particular set of movements and way of moving, to experienced martial artists. I don't see it as being originally intended to be a stand-alone system. That would be like taking my own Japanese sword training and thinking it would allow me to fight barehanded in the UFC. Not what it was meant for, so the results would be "sub-optimal". A great many people complain that aikido is not good for fighting, but that's not what it was for. The fluid movements and ability to blend with your opponent's energy (aiki) that are taught in aikido can be very useful, the same way that many professional athletes will attend ballet and modern dance training to enhance the way they move.

Just my thoughts on another old argument.

 

[Hanzou]

the results you are seeing ...and is that based on actual experience or merely the wonderful internet ?

Mainly the internet. The Aikidoka I've encountered in Bjj were never extremely high level, but they all had very negative views on Aikido.

again that is your summation and you are entitled to it but unless you are saying you have studied the art and faced Aikidoka at full pelt them I will take issue with you

]

It's funny that you think I'm the only one who holds this opinion. It's also funny that you think that I need to study Aikido extensively or roll with an Aikido master. Shouldn't the evidence be readily available? I've never studied Muay Thai or fought a pro-level MT master, but I've seen plenty of evidence that MT practitioners are pressure tested and experience high-level resistance training.

And what results are you expecting ?

Aikidoka being able to hold their own against other martial artists. Again, the general belief that I've seen expressed by Aikidoka is that Aikido is designed to deal with untrained attackers, not trained opponents. Frankly I think that's baloney and rather sad commentary.

 

[Martial D]

My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...

First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.

Second, I think the fellow has a strong need to be noticed. He was obviously not good enough to be noticed for his abilities, so he had to come up with another angle to get people to notice him. Seems like that was very successful.

Third, based on my experiences in Aikido, and in Japanese martial arts in general, I believe that too many people (including most aikidoka) no longer view aikido in the manner in which it was originally meant to be used. The way I see it, aikido was created as a way to teach a particular set of movements and way of moving, to experienced martial artists. I don't see it as being originally intended to be a stand-alone system. That would be like taking my own Japanese sword training and thinking it would allow me to fight barehanded in the UFC. Not what it was meant for, so the results would be "sub-optimal". A great many people complain that aikido is not good for fighting, but that's not what it was for. The fluid movements and ability to blend with your opponent's energy (aiki) that are taught in aikido can be very useful, the same way that many professional athletes will attend ballet and modern dance training to enhance the way they move.

Just my thoughts on another old argument.

I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.

These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.

Of course, no evidence is ever forthcoming, yet the claims continue.

And round and round we go.

 

[Hanzou]

My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...

First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.

Second, I think the fellow has a strong need to be noticed. He was obviously not good enough to be noticed for his abilities, so he had to come up with another angle to get people to notice him. Seems like that was very successful.

Third, based on my experiences in Aikido, and in Japanese martial arts in general, I believe that too many people (including most aikidoka) no longer view aikido in the manner in which it was originally meant to be used. The way I see it, aikido was created as a way to teach a particular set of movements and way of moving, to experienced martial artists. I don't see it as being originally intended to be a stand-alone system. That would be like taking my own Japanese sword training and thinking it would allow me to fight barehanded in the UFC. Not what it was meant for, so the results would be "sub-optimal". A great many people complain that aikido is not good for fighting, but that's not what it was for. The fluid movements and ability to blend with your opponent's energy (aiki) that are taught in aikido can be very useful, the same way that many professional athletes will attend ballet and modern dance training to enhance the way they move.

Just my thoughts on another old argument.

Now see, this makes more sense than some of the other stuff posted.

With that being the case, perhaps Aikido schools shouldn't advertise themselves as a method of Self-Defense?

 

[now disabled]

I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.

These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.

Of course, no evidence is ever forthcoming, yet the claims continue.

And round and round we go.

yes round we go lol

and what pray tell did the founder 100% agree on with you ...do please enlighten me as In my years I musta missed that bit

 

[now disabled]

Now see, this makes more sense than some of the other stuff posted.

With that being the case, perhaps Aikido schools shouldn't advertise themselves as a method of Self-Defense?

They are and I'm gonna say this and if you get offended sorry

You just do not get that Aikido is not walk in after 6 months you know it all and boom your a fighter


and how come when I ask you questions etc you do a body swerve and jump on the old band wagon lol


I ain't looking for support in what I say I will stand as I see and have experienced



I get questioned about my rank but do I ask others about theirs lol....nope


another question for you that website you posted are you believing them that there are no different styles of Aikido ?

 

[Steve]

the results you are seeing ...and is that based on actual experience or merely the wonderful internet ?

again that is your summation and you are entitled to it but unless you are saying you have studied the art and faced Aikidoka at full pelt them I will take issue with you

And what results are you expecting ?

Just a reminder that this thread is about a guy who has studied the art and faced aikidoka.

 

[oftheherd1]

Boxing's rule set is only limiting if the boxer gets taken down. On its feet, boxers can hang with anyone. Wrestlers rule set is only limiting if they encounter excellent striking, or they're dealing with submission grappling. Both of their rulesets come from competitive sports.

People are finding it difficult to see exactly where Aikido is effective. Since it isn't a competitive sport, it really shouldn't have a rule set that limits what it can do, but it does.

Shows how little I know. I thought in boxing, if a boxer went to the floor for any reason, his opponent was not allowed to touch him and would be sent to a neutral corner pending a check of the person on the mat.

I thought striking was not allowed in wrestling. Are you thinking of scripted commercial wrestling or sport competition wrestling. I must caution my grandson who has been in middle school wrestling, and is entering high school this year.

I am also surprised to learn that there is a Competitive Sport Ruleset that controls two very different sport/arts.

I think I agree with you on Aikido, at least that it shouldn't have a rule set that limits it. No non-sport martial art should have imho, other than not to damage a practice opponent. You quickly run out of practice opponents that way.

 

[now disabled]

I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.

These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.

Of course, no evidence is ever forthcoming, yet the claims continue.

And round and round we go.

The Aikido guy has always said there are no vids showing some Aikidoka pummeling some one why should there be ?

and Yo quoted previous threads at me and when and I asked about your friend who you let throw you about as you have to co-operate for that to happen lol and you stated he a newly promoted shodan and I said ok not prob the best to ask then ...where did you take it then /////oh he being doing it for 10 years maybe after 20 it will work ...............................well ummm why can you not accept that at shodan he will not know enough and depnding on his style what he does actually know.


Is it so hard to grasp that Aikido is not your go study for 6 months and then bang your a fighter and what part of the concepts are you not getting lol

 

[now disabled]

Just a reminder that this thread is about a guy who has studied the art and faced aikidoka.

???????? I actually do know his rank as I went and asked folks I know ok

 

[Steve]

They are and I'm gonna say this and if you get offended sorry

You just do not get that Aikido is not walk in after 6 months you know it all and boom your a fighter


and how come when I ask you questions etc you do a body swerve and jump on the old band wagon lol


I ain't looking for support in what I say I will stand as I see and have experienced



I get questioned about my rank but do I ask others about theirs lol....nope


another question for you that website you posted are you believing them that there are no different styles of Aikido ?

I think offended is the wrong word. Speaking for myself, I view it as more of a disservice. It doesn't offend me, in the same way I look at a product being advertised on an infomercial.

 

[Steve]

???????? I actually do know his rank as I went and asked folks I know ok

Your position on aikido is very similar to how Scientology works. Usefulness is always one or two steps above where you are.

 

[now disabled]

Aikido is designed to deal with untrained attackers, not trained opponents. Frankly I think that's baloney and rather sad commentary.

Who said that and where ?

 

[Steve]

Who said that and where ?

I think you said it in this thread but I will admit I just read through 5 pages of back and forth and ciuld be mistaken . I think it was brought up around page 3. It wad the exceptional aikido to face a competetwnt BJJ, wrestler, or boxer exchange.