An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?

[now disabled]

There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido; Literally throwing people around the room without touching them. It's complete BS of course, but that is what the founder of Aikido was doing and its all on tape.

I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.

Yes he was an enforcer lol


The no toch well that not entirely true but if you want I can try and explain that if not I can point you a place that snippets will make that clearer

 

[now disabled]

I feel as though I am talking to a wall.

You've made that claim many times. Two examples from this thread are that you claimed aikido has tools to deal with wrestlers, and that classical aikido works for a fight but only if you use small circles rather than large. You also claimed to have used it in fighting 'many times'.

Let's try to keep things honest here ok? Calling me out on things I didn't say and denying you said things you did say is very dishonest.

what have I denied ? and i will look back and find the quote ok

and saying you slagged off my teachers teacher is fact

 

[Martial D]

what have I denied ? and i will look back and find the quote ok

and saying you slagged off my teachers teacher is fact

You literally JUST said in your last post you weren't talking about combat effectiveness, when there are numerous examples of you doing exactly that in this very thread, which I explicitly pointed out.

And that slagging off thing is also a lie. Quote me.

What I did say is the video of him you presented contained people falling over without being touched, which it did. That you consider this to be 'slagging him off' is amusing, but not too accurate.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes he was an enforcer lol


The no toch well that not entirely true but if you want I can try and explain that if not I can point you a place that snippets will make that clearer

Uh, it is entirely true. He is throwing and manipulating people without touching them. The practice continues in the modern day:

It's pure nonsense, and the fact that some believe its real isn't good.

 

[now disabled]

You literally JUST said in your last post you weren't talking about combat effectiveness, when there are numerous examples of you doing exactly that in this very thread, which I explicitly pointed out.

And that slagging off thing is also a lie. Quote me.

What I did say is the video of him you presented contained people falling over without being touched, which it did. That you consider this to be 'slagging him off' is amusing, but not too accurate.

Look lol as far as when I used it I did period ...sorry I had no vid camera in west Belfast to record me taking knives and bottles etc of some of the boyos ok

and calling him a funny old man well and the rest well sorry that shows no respect at all and that is your choice

I have given you the option to present a case and you decline there by why waste more energy ?

 

[now disabled]

Uh, it is entirely true. He is throwing and manipulating people without touching them. The practice continues in the modern day:

It's pure nonsense, and the fact that some believe its real isn't good.

You said Ueshiba then you post a vid of someone else ......yup go figure that one out


and still awaiting you to answer the questions I asked you?

 

[Hanzou]

You said Ueshiba then you post a vid of someone else ......yup go figure that one out

and still awaiting you to answer the questions I asked you?

What questions?

 

[now disabled]

Uh, it is entirely true. He is throwing and manipulating people without touching them. The practice continues in the modern day:

It's pure nonsense, and the fact that some believe its real isn't good.

If you want to slate Ueshiba then go ahead state your case do the full break down and I will return the favour


and that vid will be the Ki boys I would think and if they wanna do that then so what as I asked as you posted that website and said they were or alluded to they were right at there being no different styles of Aikido .............welll hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhave ou not just disproved yourself there or must I only agree and roll over ? As you have seen vids and well you say nonsense ....in point of fact I have no time or the Ki brigade and if you actually looked at where that came from you well may find out that neither do the Akikai or any of the main Aikido orgs ...yes there is Ki but well that I will leave there as again that will create even more lol

 

[Martial D]

and calling him a funny old man well and the rest well sorry that shows no respect at all and that is your choice

Ok look, I don't know if your memory is terrible or if you are just lying, but this is the third time you have accused me of saying things I didn't say. In the future, go back and get a quote(which you won't find as I didn't actually say any of this)

You do realize people can just read the thread and see that it isn't true right? I guess if you don't mind being the guy known for making up lies to try to win arguments, carry on.

I have given you the option to present a case and you decline there by why waste more energy ?

Again, what case can be made without any evidence to judge? I am not the one making the claim, you are. I've never said aikido doesn't work, only that I've never seen it work, or heard of it working, and that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it working.

It isn't like I can judge what would work and what wouldn't from those phoney balogna choreographed sessions where rooms full of people charge at the one master guy in a way that literally nobody would ever do, and sometimes fall over before there is any contact made.

Do you not understand the difference between staged choreography and actual fighting?

 

[now disabled]

What questions?

that is not no touch my friend lol


go do a full break down of what you are saying break all down what you think he is doing and then present it and I will come back at you ok ...that way you are taking the initiative I am merely nage lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.

In their defense, I don't think most folks in Aikido see it that way. They know what they are teaching takes longer than some other solutions to self-defense, but they accept that. I'm not sure how many of them have the information/experience outside the Aikido community needed to recognize what's actually missing. And it takes a broad mind (like Stan Pranin had) to be a proponent of Aikido and also recognize these gaps.

For what it's worth, I think Aikido is a perfect solution for what a lot of folks really want from it: the challenge of learning skills, the feeling of "smooth" from working aiki movement, and a sense of community. It excels at those things. Eventually, it also provides some defensive ability, but it does not excel at that.

 

[now disabled]

I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.

These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.

Of course, no evidence is ever forthcoming, yet the claims continue.

And round and round we go.

 

[Hanzou]

If you want to slate Ueshiba then go ahead state your case do the full break down and I will return the favour


and that vid will be the Ki boys I would think and if they wanna do that then so what as I asked as you posted that website and said they were or alluded to they were right at there being no different styles of Aikido .............welll hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhave ou not just disproved yourself there or must I only agree and roll over ? As you have seen vids and well you say nonsense ....in point of fact I have no time or the Ki brigade and if you actually looked at where that came from you well may find out that neither do the Akikai or any of the main Aikido orgs ...yes there is Ki but well that I will leave there as again that will create even more lol

Uh, the guy in the gif is Nobuyuki Watanabe, 8th dan with the Aikikai. He's even listed as one of their instructors;

Instructors | Aikikai Foundation

 

[Hanzou]

that is not no touch my friend lol


go do a full break down of what you are saying break all down what you think he is doing and then present it and I will come back at you ok ...that way you are taking the initiative I am merely nage lol

He's pushing his hand downward and the other person is moving downward. There is no physical contact whatsoever. In another part of the vid he raises his arms in the air and people just fall over.

That is the very definition of no-touch.

But by all means, I'm interested in your interpretation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Perhaps more on the mental side and far less on the martial side. Again, similar to Tai Chi or Yoga which improve your art beyond merely the physical?

Despite my personal respect for Roy Dean, I haven't really seen much in his attempt to merge Aikido with Bjj. It certainly hasn't pushed Bjj the way Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, and MMA have. I find that really surprising and a little disappointing, since wrist locks are legal in some levels of competitive Bjj, and you would think that cross-training in Aikido would give you some mean wrist locks.

The real focus of Aikido is learning to execute "with aiki", so to speak. If you learn to do that, most of the techniques you already have gain a level of nuance. It adds some evasion and new entry points for some techniques, and new ways to disrupt the opponent.

I wouldn't expect aiki to have much impact on BJJ, for two reasons. Firstly, most of the movement involved in aiki is not available in mount, side mount, or any of the guard positions. In transitions, there might be some opportunities. I'd more expect to see it bring BJJ some standing movement, because I think aiki movement could merge well with BJJ. The wrist locks in Aikido aren't anything special - similar locks exist in other arts. It's how they get to those locks that's different. You might see some interesting arm transitions, but it's my experience that good BJJ folks have some pretty smooth transitions that come pretty close to being aiki, so it'd be a marginal difference. Judo's standing work would probably be influenced more by Aikido in an attempted blending of arts.

 

[now disabled]

Uh, the guy in the gif is Nobuyuki Watanabe, 8th dan with the Aikikai. He's even listed as one of their instructors;

Instructors | Aikikai Foundation

you sure he is still teaching at the Hombu / as just cause he listed does nt mean he is active there ....tada is listed but when he teaches his own brand he does so outside the Hombu

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have no idea what you are talking about with the agree 100% thing. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. You'll have to quote me.

As for the ful crit thing, I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean. If you mean critique, I would need to see someone actually use it in a fight(as the context here is combat effectiveness).

As I have never seen aikido stuff pulled off in a fight or sparring(or even in a tomiki tournement), I have nothing to critique, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.

Actually, what you see in a Tomiki tournament is "aikido stuff". If you're expecting it to look like the classical "dojo Aikido", that's going to be much more rare.

 

[now disabled]

He's pushing his hand downward and the other person is moving downward. There is no physical contact whatsoever. In another part of the vid he raises his arms in the air and people just fall over.

That is the very definition of no-touch.

But by all means, I'm interested in your interpretation.

bro Ueshiba is putting people where he wants them as as @gpseymour said before I could that is the nuance lol and that is how it done it not hocous pocus lol

 

[Martial D]

You should read slower. That plainly doesn't say anything about aikido guy "agreeing with me 100%" as you claimed. It says I agree 100% with the poster I was quoting, and it is in reference to aikido being a supplimentary art to those that already know martial arts. Are you denying that his original students were not already martial artists?

I did find this quote from him however.


"Aikido is not a way to fight with or defeat enemies; it is a way to reconcile the world and make all human beings one family."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido; Literally throwing people around the room without touching them. It's complete BS of course, but that is what the founder of Aikido was doing and its all on tape.

I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.

Some of that, I've been told, was him demonstrating how "lead" works. The uke was instructed to follow, so people could see the structural changes that come from him being led in a certain way (hand positions affect body, etc.). I don't know how much of those videos that accounts for, but I've seen similar demonstrations done in other arts, where it was clear to all observing that uke was purposely participating so they could see something specific.