An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?

[Kung Fu Wang]

dup, deleted.

 

[O'Malley]

Is that because you weren't expecting it?

I can't see that technique 'crowding' your face more than, say, a 16oz boxing glove being shoved in your face at speed

Well, Tomiki guys have this "shomen ate" technique where they push on your face/chin, making your head roll back so that you fall backwards (IIRC it also exists in Yoshinkan and sumo guys use similar principles all the time). Gerry might have experienced a version of this where he flinched before making contact, maybe because the angle was unexpected.

This is, I think, the overall issue. People know that Aikido is effective to help other arts, provide new movements, etc. and I have no way to prove it, but I also have no way to disprove it or reason to doubt it. The issue that I have is those who claim it is a self-defense system on it's own, since that's ignoring the whole 'effective to help other arts' aspect of it.

Maybe modern Aikikai aikido can be considered that way. But the theory that early proponents of aikido owed their effectiveness to their other martial background and that aikido is only useful as a "power up" does not hold up. Leaving aside some guys like Kuroiwa that had some martial background but changed radically their fighting style (in his case, from boxing to hip throws), some of the early disciples were ferocious fighters while having aikido as their sole art (Tadashi Abe comes to mind but there are others like Saito, Tada, etc.). Even more strikingly (and again, we'll leave the case of Sokaku Takeda aside), two monsters like Morihei Ueshiba and Yukiyoshi Sagawa literally thrashed experienced martial artists while having Daitô-ryu as their sole (Sagawa) or only significant (Ueshiba) martial training. And aikido as taught by Morihei Ueshiba was a slightly altered version of Daitô-ryu, he even taught it under that name until the '30s. Aikido has been effective, even tremendously effective to the point that Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo that defeated his jujutsu teachers in live bouts and invented his own system at the age of 23) expressely sent people to study with Ueshiba.

The only way you could do it is somehow flinch a guy then keep following that line until they fall over.

But yeah unlikely.

I wonder if those wrestlers and judokas who seem unnaturally rock solid would be an example of aiki?

Unnatural stability is one of the attributes that is obtained through internal martial arts. You can see the same phenomenon with high-level Taiji or Yichuan practicioners. And yeah, it is one of the attributes that Daitô-ryu's "aiki" training is supposed to cultivate.

I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing? It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure? It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).

JMHO.


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Quoted for truth.

Back to the original topic, this guy's approach is kind of positive for him and the art. Ok, he's far from the best representative that could have been "sent" to show aikido against MMA and he's done quite the bad advertisement for aikido but in the end most aikidoka will continue to do their own thing so it's not that problematic. On the other end, one can hope that some will try to prove him wrong or to rethink their own training (like Bruce Bookman's initiative). And who knows? He might come up with something at the end of his journey (even though I feel like he's not skilled enough in aikido to do so).

However, I think that a better approach is to wonder what has been lost since the days where aikido was martially effective. I have a number of factors in mind:

1) changes were made in the techniques to make them more accessible (by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei)
2) the esoteric training (meant to cultivate internal strength) has been lost either because of lack of interest, lack of understanding or because it was not taught
3) aikidoka don't spar anymore: indeed while sparring was not formally in the curriculum, Osensei's disciples used to wrestle among themselves and had plenty of opportunities to practice against resisting opponents
4) training was way more intense back then

Well, all this is but a personal opinion.

 

[Hanzou]

Not trying to defend Aikido or whatever martial art. Just some have great principles (theory) that they can hardly apply in practice. (So cross training would help here, I said before.) When I read about, I recognise them in the training I got (but I was never told about that principles/concepts verbally) and they are good and work.

I never said NO rules would favour the Aikidoka. I just said the MMA guy was sparring in his environment against someone that never sparred. Easy. Now tell the MMA guy he can only do Aikido moves and he does not have a clue as well. It is it what I was saying.

Yeh, some styles never move from a collaborative environment to a competitive one. Many styles could improve his training, including MMA; too many injuries there.

Again, how is a controlled environment incredibly disadvantageous to someone performing Aikido? If Aikido is designed to neutralize or incapacitate an attacker, and Aikidoka have training with intercepting strikes, placing someone off balance, etc. shouldn't the Aikidoka be able to perform their techniques in a neutral environment with a padded surface?

Additionally, saying that an Aikidoka fighting in a ring is equivalent to a MMA practitioner being forced to use an art they've never trained in before is an utterly laughable. That isn't even close to comparable.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's what was so impressive about the video clip - the guy did pull it off in a tournament against a resisting opponent. I've seen the throw in demos plenty of times. That's the only time I've seen it successfully executed in competition.

In that clip, his opponent just got back up from the ground and didnot have proper grips on him. If they stand face to face, it will be very difficult to move 45 degree behind his opponent.

In the following clip, he moves in under his opponent's right arm. I find this to be very difficult to do in tournament.

 

[O'Malley]

Again, how is a controlled environment incredibly disadvantageous to someone performing Aikido? If Aikido is designed to neutralize or incapacitate an attacker, and Aikidoka have training with intercepting strikes, placing someone off balance, etc. shouldn't the Aikidoka be able to perform their techniques in a neutral environment with a padded surface?

Additionally, saying that an Aikidoka fighting in a ring is equivalent to a MMA practitioner being forced to use an art they've never trained in before is an utterly laughable. That isn't even close to comparable.

While I agree with the general idea of your post, I do think that aikido requires a certain "decisiveness" in the entries and in performing the techniques. Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.

Unless you are able to win the encounter at the moment of contact and/or have extraordinary mastery to refrain from hurting your opponent? After all, Sokaku Takeda reportedly never injured anyone in practice...

 

[jobo]

I'm not on about mixing the arts, just mixing the sparring.

It's less about finding what works and more about finding out how to make things work. For instance, I can make TKD punches and blocks work against a boxer. Not every single time, but a boxer can't stop another boxer every single time either.

I may attend kickboxing classes, but from an extra workout perspective - I'm not trying to modify or add to my TKD...

If your going to include it in the sparing, bbj say, then you need to include it in the teaching, if you include it in the teaching , your teaching mixed martial arts.

Really, all the tkd people I've met look like t rex, great big thighs and little withered arms

 

[Hanzou]

While I agree with the general idea of your post, I do think that aikido requires a certain "decisiveness" in the entries and in performing the techniques. Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.

Unless you are able to win the encounter at the moment of contact and/or have extraordinary mastery to refrain from hurting your opponent? After all, Sokaku Takeda reportedly never injured anyone in practice...

MMA also has techniques that have a high risk of breaking joints. The art where most of those joint breaking techniques come from is Bjj, and Bjj practitioners are also fully capable of fighting or neutralizing someone without snapping their limbs. I'm also aware that Aikido has plenty of locks and holds that require no wrist or arm snapping, so why can't they do those instead of doing "teH DeAdly" techniques?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.

Old saying said, "A bad punch is better than a good joint lock."

How effective is the joint lock? A friend of mine demonstrated "anti-locking" on the stage. He invited anybody to get up on the stage and applied any joint lock on him. Not even a single person could lock his joint.

Aikido has "unbendable arm". If you think there are water that go through your arm from your shoulder to your finger tips, it will be very difficult to bend your arm. In Taiji, that's called Peng Jin.

Anybody can learn those 40 joint locking skills within 3 hours. Whether that person can apply any of those locking skill in his lifetime can be questionable.

I don't believe in single locking skill. I do believe in combo locking skill. You try to

- straight your opponent's arm, when he resists, you borrow his resistance and bend his arm.
- bend your opponent's arm, when he resists, you borrow his resistance and straight his arm.

I'm not sure whether Aikido emphasizes on locking skill combo or not.

 

[Martial D]

I think....

Every time an aikido thread is created, everyone that posts in it should have to send @gpseymour 5 dollars.

For reffing

 

[now disabled]

While I agree with the general idea of your post, I do think that aikido requires a certain "decisiveness" in the entries and in performing the techniques. Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.

Unless you are able to win the encounter at the moment of contact and/or have extraordinary mastery to refrain from hurting your opponent? After all, Sokaku Takeda reportedly never injured anyone in practice...

Yes it does require decisive entry ...

and in that vid he looked like a scared wee boy .., You come from the Iwama style could you imagine what your teachers teacher would have made of that ....I know exactly what saito sensei would have done ....finger pointed towards the door and at the Yoshinkan ...he would never have made it past week 3 of the senshusei period

 

[now disabled]

MMA also has techniques that have a high risk of breaking joints. The art where most of those joint breaking techniques come from is Bjj, and Bjj practitioners are also fully capable of fighting or neutralizing someone without snapping their limbs. I'm also aware that Aikido has plenty of locks and holds that require no wrist or arm snapping, so why can't they do those instead of doing "teH DeAdly" techniques?

Eh that depends on what you are given ....if what you are given to enter upon is the opening for kotegaeshi or Hiji waza then thats where ya go ...if the opening is for irimi nage or kaiten nage then thats where ya go ....you don't pre decide what your gonna go with

 

[Hanzou]

Eh that depends on what you are given ....if what you are given to enter upon is the opening for kotegaeshi or Hiji waza then thats where ya go ...if the opening is for irimi nage or kaiten nage then thats where ya go ....you don't pre decide what your gonna go with

That applies to every MA out there, not just Aikido. Your martial art should give you the tools to capitalize on what you are given.

 

[now disabled]

going into anything with pre determined ideas is a good way of losing

The only way that anyone who is not an Aikidoka to fully understand is to actually go train do the techs and feel them done on you and not by a low rank but by a high grade who knows how to no matter what yo come at him with as he will not be or have a pre determined idea of what he gonna do he will go with what you give and offer

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Every time an aikido thread is created, ...

Aikido is similar to Taiji. There are just so many things that can be discussed.

 

[now disabled]

That applies to every MA out there, not just Aikido. Your martial art should give you the tools to capitalize on what you are given.

Yes ofcourse

And Aikido does ...I know you won't but go look at the senshusei course (that the riot police course) do you honestly think that a course like that is gonna tech things that don't work ? and believe me it hell on earth and I wasn't a beginner or unfit when I did it and well when the riot boys join or you are allowed to join them it gets interesting ...

 

[drop bear]

Unnatural stability is one of the attributes that is obtained through internal martial arts. You can see the same phenomenon with high-level Taiji or Yichuan practicioners. And yeah, it is one of the attributes that Daitô-ryu's "aiki" training is supposed to cultivate.

 

[now disabled]

Aikido is similar to Taiji. There are just so many things that can be discussed.

I agree and both arts can be applied how ever you wish them to be applied be it martial or indeed for health ...that choice is the person who undertakes the study to make ....and in what depth and what understanding he/she wants to take it to

 

[drop bear]

going into anything with pre determined ideas is a good way of losing

The only way that anyone who is not an Aikidoka to fully understand is to actually go train do the techs and feel them done on you and not by a low rank but by a high grade who knows how to no matter what yo come at him with as he will not be or have a pre determined idea of what he gonna do he will go with what you give and offer

Which you virtually cant do. Unless you pick an ex Aikidoka. Otherwise they can't spar.

I may get access to a guy due to a hugly convoluted grading issue we have with jits at the moment. Paul cal may be doing our jits gradings who is also Aikido.

He trains out of Townsville which is 300km away.

 

[now disabled]

Old saying said, "A bad punch is better than a good joint lock."

How effective is the joint lock? A friend of mine demonstrated "anti-locking" on the stage. He invited anybody to get up on the stage and applied any joint lock on him. Not even a single person could lock his joint.

Aikido has "unbendable arm". If you think there are water that go through your arm from your shoulder to your finger tips, it will be very difficult to bend your arm. In Taiji, that's called Peng Jin.

Anybody can learn those 40 joint locking skills within 3 hours. Whether that person can apply any of those locking skill in his lifetime can be questionable.

I don't believe in single locking skill. I do believe in combo locking skill. You try to

- straight your opponent's arm, when he resists, you borrow his resistance and bend his arm.
- bend your opponent's arm, when he resists, you borrow his resistance and straight his arm.

I'm not sure whether Aikido emphasizes on locking skill combo or not.

Sorta but the thing you say about borrowing his resistance is the same just described in a different way

You might get this idea ....when the uke grabs and he gets hold ....you have already lost and are in effect playing catch up

what you should see in well versed and skilled Aikidoka is just at the point of grab then he acts not after ...that is the difference and in most of the vids you are seeing techs being actually slowed down at seminars to teach the mechanics of said

 

[drop bear]

Yes ofcourse

And Aikido does ...I know you won't but go look at the senshusei course (that the riot police course) do you honestly think that a course like that is gonna tech things that don't work ? and believe me it hell on earth and I wasn't a beginner or unfit when I did it and well when the riot boys join or you are allowed to join them it gets interesting ...

Industry training?