An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?

[Tony Dismukes]

Not aiki:

Lots of aiki movement early, and the first technique executed is quite aiki:

Now, clearly, what they can do is largely facilitated by the rules. You wouldn't see the same interaction if the opponent was a boxer (entirely different entries, which changes the opportunities). Might see about half of the same if the opponent were a Judo player.

I love the execution of the move at around 1:11 on the second video. Very slick and not something you would expect to see pulled off in a BJJ tournament, even though it would be perfectly legal.

If there was a Tomiki Aikido dojo locally, I would love to check it out. Unfortunately there don't appear to be any in Kentucky.

 

[Martial D]

I haven't had a good opportunity in a while, except the chance I had with Tony, and I mostly spent that stealing ideas - we never got around to actually rolling/sparring. So, your chances of seeing it are slim unless you send me a partner down here to grapple with.

Currently, my program is shut down until I find a new location, and the Hobbit's back prevents us from doing any serious live grappling most of the time. But I do love an opportunity to spar/grapple/roll with someone from outside NGA (not enough of that happens in most of NGA).

If you ever happen to be in the Vancouver BC area send me a message!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I love the execution of the move at around 1:11 on the second video. Very slick and not something you would expect to see pulled off in a BJJ tournament, even though it would be perfectly legal.

If there was a Tomiki Aikido dojo locally, I would love to check it out. Unfortunately there don't appear to be any in Kentucky.

Yeah, if I were looking to expand my experience in aiki arts, I'd be looking for a Tomiki school. This was literally the second video I looked at to respond to KD's post (the first was the non-aiki one I posted), and it's probably the best example of aiki I've seen in a video of a Tomiki tournament.

I wonder if a Tomiki practitioner would be able to find those same openings with a BJJ guy. I'd think not - at least in a tournament - since I'd think they're like to be entering lower, to get to the ground. What do you think?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you ever happen to be in the Vancouver BC area send me a message!

Happily, brother!

 

[Hanzou]

Not aiki:

Lots of aiki movement early, and the first technique executed is quite aiki:

Now, clearly, what they can do is largely facilitated by the rules. You wouldn't see the same interaction if the opponent was a boxer (entirely different entries, which changes the opportunities). Might see about half of the same if the opponent were a Judo player.

I really like this. It really changes the entire dynamic of the throws and set ups, and adds quite a bit of dynamism to the art. I wonder what would happen if competitive Aikido began absorbing outside techniques to bolster its weaknesses.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not aiki:

Lots of aiki movement early, and the first technique executed is quite aiki:

Now, clearly, what they can do is largely facilitated by the rules. You wouldn't see the same interaction if the opponent was a boxer (entirely different entries, which changes the opportunities). Might see about half of the same if the opponent were a Judo player.

I'm really a fan of that second video. Different than anything I've seen before.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I really like this. It really changes the entire dynamic of the throws and set ups, and adds quite a bit of dynamism to the art. I wonder what would happen if competitive Aikido began absorbing outside techniques to bolster its weaknesses.

Yup. Imagine someone with that style also incorporating punches. It would be awesome to watch

 

[elder999]

Yup. Imagine someone with that style also incorporating punches. It would be awesome to watch

It would almost be.....jujutsu.......just sayin'

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really like this. It really changes the entire dynamic of the throws and set ups, and adds quite a bit of dynamism to the art. I wonder what would happen if competitive Aikido began absorbing outside techniques to bolster its weaknesses.

I'd be really interested to see that. First, understand that Tomiki has fewer gaps than some other branches of Aikido (and is less "aiki" focused, in my opinion - those kind of go together). I think if you really get to the foundation of fighting skills, it'd be possible for it to stop being Aikido. Here's my reasoning: it takes a long time to develop good aiki flow to be able to do what that guy did. It takes considerably less time to develop a good hip throw, single-leg, or even drop seoi nage. So, if the rules don't somehow favor aiki movement, those who want to win would do better early if they focus on other skills. And if they win with them early, they'll probably stick with them, because there's more payoff in getting highly skilled in those than in adding a layer of mediocre aiki to mediocre other stuff.

In my view, from what I know of Tomiki (relatively little, in the grand scheme), it's the middle ground. At one end would be starting with classical Aikido and working hard to make it useful, which takes a long time. At the other end would be starting with foundational fighting skills, getting competent with those, then adding Aikido on top. Tomiki is somewhere between those. Yoshinkan is, too, though they don't have competition, and I don't know how much resistive training they typically do, so it's much harder to see what theirs would look like in actual application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It would almost be.....jujutsu.......just sayin'

Yep. I think it's useful to remember that Daito-ryu (the main foundation for Aikido) was aiki-jujutsu. And that "aiki" was an add-on term (I've heard conflicting reports about whether it was in use before Takeda Sokaku's time). Essentially, as I've had it explained to me by someone well informed, Daito-ryu Jujutsu is the core, with the aiki-jujutsu being sort of a "higher level".

So, take the "aiki" off, and you get more "jujutsu", unsurprisingly.

 

[pdg]

The only "no touch" I've ever experienced used this sort of principle. The guy used his hands to crowd my face as I entered to cause that flinch to put me on my heels, then dropped his arms on a straight vertical to keep me back. It's not a good description, but if you stood double-weighted (50% of weight on each foot, feet parallel) right at a wall and tried to squat without touching the wall, you'd feel what I felt. I wouldn't trust it in a fight, but it was impressively embarrassing to not be able to resist it.

Is that because you weren't expecting it?

I can't see that technique 'crowding' your face more than, say, a 16oz boxing glove being shoved in your face at speed

 

[pdg]

These days, most TMA teachers, if they are honest, will tell their students what the strength and weaknesses of their art is. For example, I am perfectly aware that if I wanted to compete in a cage fight, I would need to incorporate boxing and grappling to my game, and would also have to spar with much different rules than we spar with (allowing take downs, and punches to the head, both of which are not allowed in TKD point sparring).

I think a reasonably complete TMA practitioner would stand an evens chance myself, as long as they're not utterly outclassed (beginner against seasoned fighter kinda deal). Under certain conditions.

Mainly (like you say) sparring in an appropriate manner to start with...

Our TKD sparring is different to yours, and we regularly spar against the kickboxers, some of whom came from a 'pure' boxing background.

I find I don't need to adjust my TKD to do well enough against the kickboxers/boxers - and if takedowns and the rest were allowed (and practiced more) then the chances would move higher (takedowns, grappling, ground - all "in" TKD, but you normally have to look very hard to find it).

If more schools did that sort of thing, maybe there'd be less of this sort of thread?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is that because you weren't expecting it?

I can't see that technique 'crowding' your face more than, say, a 16oz boxing glove being shoved in your face at speed

Yeah, if you knew it was coming, you could just shove past the flinch. Of course if you know it's coming and it works, you'd think it was something you did, being too compliant.

The thing about it was that it didn't make me react like a strike, but more like a sudden leaf in the face when you walk past a tree. Does that make sense?

 

[marques]

I hear this argument quite often, and I simply think it is dubious bordering into ridiculous. This argument has really started gaining steam again after the MMA fighter in China started challenging traditional Chinese arts and frankly beat them rather easily.

If we're going under standard rules of no biting, no groin attacks, etc. why would MMA have such an overwhelming advantage? Is the argument then to say that if there were NO rules, the Aikidoka would suddenly have a chance? What rules specifically hinder a non-MMA fighter from being able to beat a MMA fighter in a controlled environment?

Not trying to defend Aikido or whatever martial art. Just some have great principles (theory) that they can hardly apply in practice. (So cross training would help here, I said before.) When I read about, I recognise them in the training I got (but I was never told about that principles/concepts verbally) and they are good and work.

I never said NO rules would favour the Aikidoka. I just said the MMA guy was sparring in his environment against someone that never sparred. Easy. Now tell the MMA guy he can only do Aikido moves and he does not have a clue as well. It is it what I was saying.

Yeh, some styles never move from a collaborative environment to a competitive one. Many styles could improve his training, including MMA; too many injuries there.

 

[jobo]

I think a reasonably complete TMA practitioner would stand an evens chance myself, as long as they're not utterly outclassed (beginner against seasoned fighter kinda deal). Under certain conditions.

Mainly (like you say) sparring in an appropriate manner to start with...

Our TKD sparring is different to yours, and we regularly spar against the kickboxers, some of whom came from a 'pure' boxing background.

I find I don't need to adjust my TKD to do well enough against the kickboxers/boxers - and if takedowns and the rest were allowed (and practiced more) then the chances would move higher (takedowns, grappling, ground - all "in" TKD, but you normally have to look very hard to find it).

If more schools did that sort of thing

, maybe there'd be less of this sort of thread?

We'll yes, that's self evidently true, if all ma,were mixed martial arts, there would be no threads like this one.

though there might be threads about which mix was better, pitty the poor sole that takes a combined version of aikido with wing Chun, footwork and tkd punches , oooch

 

[now disabled]

Yeah, if I were looking to expand my experience in aiki arts, I'd be looking for a Tomiki school. This was literally the second video I looked at to respond to KD's post (the first was the non-aiki one I posted), and it's probably the best example of aiki I've seen in a video of a Tomiki tournament.

I wonder if a Tomiki practitioner would be able to find those same openings with a BJJ guy. I'd think not - at least in a tournament - since I'd think they're like to be entering lower, to get to the ground. What do you think?

Tomiki has the same gaps as the rest of Aikido

the tornament stuff is different

You want Aikido that is hard and more like the original

then look to the Yoshinkan and either the shenshusei or the Kenshusei ...there you will find that hard real stuff

 

[pdg]

Yeah, if you knew it was coming, you could just shove past the flinch. Of course if you know it's coming and it works, you'd think it was something you did, being too compliant.

The thing about it was that it didn't make me react like a strike, but more like a sudden leaf in the face when you walk past a tree. Does that make sense?

Kind of makes sense - but I'd have a hard time believing it's any more "no touch" than a tree can perform

Maybe it'd work within defined rules of engagement - but would it still work if you were allowed to brush it aside and punch/kick him?

 

[pdg]

We'll yes, that's self evidently true, if all ma,were mixed martial arts, there would be no threads like this one.

though there might be threads about which mix was better, pitty the poor sole that takes a combined version of aikido with wing Chun, footwork and tkd punches , oooch

I'm not on about mixing the arts, just mixing the sparring.

It's less about finding what works and more about finding out how to make things work. For instance, I can make TKD punches and blocks work against a boxer. Not every single time, but a boxer can't stop another boxer every single time either.

I may attend kickboxing classes, but from an extra workout perspective - I'm not trying to modify or add to my TKD...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I love the execution of the move at around 1:11 on the second video. Very slick and not something you would expect to see pulled off in a BJJ tournament, even though it would be perfectly legal.

That move in Chinese wrestling is called "floating (or raising)". IMO, that's more of a demo throw than a tournament throw.

You have to

- use 2 hands to against 1 arm.
- keep your opponent's arm to be straight while you twist his arm.
- move yourself 45 degree behind him.

It's very difficult to make this throw work on the mat. I have never seen anybody who can apply that throw in tournament. Even in demo, most of the time, it will look fake. Your opponent may have to flip himself to release from the arm twisting pressure.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's very difficult to make this throw work on the mat. I have never seen anybody who can apply that throw in tournament. Even in demo, most of the time, it will look fake.

That's what was so impressive about the video clip - the guy did pull it off in a tournament against a resisting opponent. I've seen the throw in demos plenty of times. That's the only time I've seen it successfully executed in competition.