An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.

This is, I think, the overall issue. People know that Aikido is effective to help other arts, provide new movements, etc. and I have no way to prove it, but I also have no way to disprove it or reason to doubt it. The issue that I have is those who claim it is a self-defense system on it's own, since that's ignoring the whole 'effective to help other arts' aspect of it.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah I think I get you

Again he ain't a fighter imo and jumping ship as he kinda has isn't gonna make him one either ....................but just my opinion ....I didn't say he wasn't good I said he was ok ....and well if you really want me to crit his Aikido I will do that in private not in public

Well we will find out. I mean if changing systems makes him a fighter.

That will also shed a light on to a few concepts about the style and the individual.

 

[drop bear]

Really what that guy is kinda doing is burning his own bridges in a way as doing what he is doing so publicly (yeah some may call it balls ) he will find it difficult to throw off later if he ever wants to return and study more and deeper as pissing off the future shihan and high dan grades would do have clout within Aikido is not the wisest move as it kinda unlikely that he will ever he overly welcome again to grade ....I say that as really he has sorta said I'm a former BB now I'm an MMA guy and well not the wisest move at all imo

And that is everything that is wrong with Aikido.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

not your fault but I will not take more of a person that has to insult then name call the run and play victim go read what he said regarding my disability

What did he say about it? I must have skipped over that part.

 

[Martial D]

What did he say about it? I must have skipped over that part.

I have no idea what his actual disability even is bro. He cracked his shell.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The best collected evidence you'll find is those Tomiki competitions. They use Aikido in those. Some of it looks (and operates) like Judo, because they're not focused on only doing the aiki application. If you saw me grappling with someone, you'd probably see what I'm doing as being mostly Judo. While there's some Judo influence, most of what I do is most heavily drawn from the NGA techniques from Daito-ryu (the same primary source as Aikido). If someone with Aikido training steps into a ring, you're just not going to see much of the big, easily-recognizable aiki applications. If you see anything definitively Aikido, it'll be in the movement, rather than the technique.

I'm not aware of anyone who has taken Aikido as a major influence into anything like MMA at a level we'd get to see. It's just not a direct enough route to be worth it. Someone serious about competition will take the shortest route to the solutions they need.

Any chance you could find a video in one of those tournaments of someone using Aiki, and someone not using Aiki? I'm really curious if it is something that can actually be seen.

 

[drop bear]

Okay..... So you're saying that you DO believe that Ueshbia could throw people around without touching them.

So why has this incredible ability never been performed in a live fight? I mean, the ability to throw someone to the ground without touching them would revolutionize martial arts (and the laws of physics).

The only way you could do it is somehow flinch a guy then keep following that line until they fall over.

But yeah unlikely.

I wonder if those wrestlers and judokas who seem unnaturally rock solid would be an example of aiki?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The way that he feels about his Aikido is the same way that I feel about my Taiji. I started my Taiji training since I was 7. I do believe that Taiji can be used in fighting 200 years ago. But the way people train Taiji today, there is no way that it can be used in fighting. May be Aikido could be used in fighting. But definitely not the way that Aikido people train today.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He's gotten a lot of hate for all of this, mainly from fellow Aikido practitioners who think that he embarrassed their art or something.

If I have time, I prefer to train my Chinese wrestling than to train my Taiji. If you care about fighting, life is too short to be wasted.

 

[Michele123]

The way that he feels about his Aikido is the same way that I feel about my Taiji. I started my Taiji training since I was 7. I do believe that Taiji can be used in fighting 200 years ago. But the way people train Taiji today, there is no way that it can be used in fighting. May be Aikido could be used in fighting. But definitely not the way that Aikido people train today.

I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing? It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure? It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).

JMHO.


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[marques]

Do individuals like this hurt or help their respective styles or martial arts in general?

My opinion is cross-training is great to test ourselves in a different environment. No intrinsic downside.
Answering the question, 'individuals' like that may help or not martial arts.

Pros:
- brave enough to face an experienced figther (and put it online).
- Tried to improve* Aikido. (read tried to make is style work against controled [but real] opposition; would recomend it to everyone).

Cons:
- He put himself in a situation were Aikido has little chance, does not matter the praticioner, isn't it? Aikido in gloves?! Against someone that does not commit with, or telegraph, every attack?
- He lost even before trying, due to his mindset.
- People may overgeneralise and think X or Y martial art is useless and only MMA works.

To finish, if X martial arts guy fights a good MMA guy in MMA rules, of course he looses. Mayweather or Mike Tyson would loose against a current MMA fighter (well, at heavyweight we never know...). If a trained MMA guy goes to a boxing match or BJJ competition and wants to win, he most fight lower ranks. Last point, MMA also works against the practicioner (more than other 'weak' styles); they are all injured at some point if not living with injuries all the time.

*What I think on Chinese martial arts, is they are too much complex (and with a complex history), so people hardly can understand and apply it in most scenarios; and it may apply as well to Japanese martial arts and Aikido. Maybe his Aikido is weak, to start with (up to the wrong scenario for Aikido and wrong midset for a competition).

 

[Hanzou]

To finish, if X martial arts guy fights a good MMA guy in MMA rules, of course he looses. Mayweather or Mike Tyson would loose against a current MMA fighter (well, at heavyweight we never know...). If a trained MMA guy goes to a boxing match or BJJ competition and wants to win, he most fight lower ranks. Last point, MMA also works against the practicioner (more than other 'weak' styles); they are all injured at some point if not living with injuries all the time.

*What I think on Chinese martial arts, is they are too much complex (and with a complex history), so people hardly can understand and apply it in most scenarios; and it may apply as well to Japanese martial arts and Aikido. Maybe his Aikido is weak, to start with (up to the wrong scenario for Aikido and wrong midset for a competition).

I hear this argument quite often, and I simply think it is dubious bordering into ridiculous. This argument has really started gaining steam again after the MMA fighter in China started challenging traditional Chinese arts and frankly beat them rather easily.

If we're going under standard rules of no biting, no groin attacks, etc. why would MMA have such an overwhelming advantage? Is the argument then to say that if there were NO rules, the Aikidoka would suddenly have a chance? What rules specifically hinder a non-MMA fighter from being able to beat a MMA fighter in a controlled environment?

 

[Steve]

I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing? It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure? It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).

JMHO.


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In general, I think your point is a very good one. In this case, he began this arc with pressure testing his art. So he sparred, trying to apply aikido under pressure. We are seeing now his conclusion that it isn't (in his estimation) the pressure testing. He concludes it is the aikido.

 

[jobo]

I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing? It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure? It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).

JMHO.


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But that's rather a circular arguments, aikido doesn't general spar( meaningful ly) so it's seldom if ever pressure tested, hence no one knows for certain it works or not, which is why you get practitioners getting all indignant, if you suggest they should prove it to be effective, it's like asking a devout Christian to prove his God exists, it's an article of faith that it does despite absolutely no supporting evidence,

As not pressure testing is the very essence of aikido, saying it might work if it was pressure tested, is pointless, they don't And wont,pressure test for fear of proving it doesn't work, then there just blokes in skirts doing a dance.

 

[mrt2]

Things have changed a lot in martial arts since

I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing? It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure? It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).

JMHO.


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That is true, but the problem as I understand it is, Aikido practitioners generally don't spar.

No traditional martial art is perfect, but some are more flawed than others. Put another way, no Wing Chun, Karate, or Tae Kwon Do black belt will do well in an MMA fight without additional training.

My takeaway from this guy's video's is, Aikido is great for self improvement, aesthetic beauty, and spiritual health. Not so good at self defense.

I respect the guy's courage to take a close look at an art he spent over a decade learning and facing the fact that it is less useful in the real world than he thought it was. FWIW, in one of his videos, he does address the criticism that maybe the fault is his own, and he issues a challenge to other Aikidoka to prove him wrong. To date, I don;'t think anyone has taken him up on the challenge and gotten in the ring with an MMA fighter.

 

[mrt2]

A lot has changed in the martial arts landscape since I first stepped into a Tang Soo Do dojang over 35 years ago. Back then, I think most practitioners of martial arts were a bit cultish in our belief that our martial art was a complete art. I really believed that in a "no rules" fight, a good Tang Soo Do fighter could beat an elite boxer. MMA was still decades away, so most of this was theoretical, since most of our tournaments were against other Korean martial arts, or occasionally, Kung Fu or Japanese Martial arts. And it was light contact rules. No TMA ever actually got in the ring with an elite boxer or wrestler.

These days, most TMA teachers, if they are honest, will tell their students what the strength and weaknesses of their art is. For example, I am perfectly aware that if I wanted to compete in a cage fight, I would need to incorporate boxing and grappling to my game, and would also have to spar with much different rules than we spar with (allowing take downs, and punches to the head, both of which are not allowed in TKD point sparring). I think our head instructor is moving that direction, and his son, who is the assistant instructor, even more so, as he also did some boxing and incorporates boxing moves into his classes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What are the odds of that happening? Im actually very interested in what you do.

I haven't had a good opportunity in a while, except the chance I had with Tony, and I mostly spent that stealing ideas - we never got around to actually rolling/sparring. So, your chances of seeing it are slim unless you send me a partner down here to grapple with.

Currently, my program is shut down until I find a new location, and the Hobbit's back prevents us from doing any serious live grappling most of the time. But I do love an opportunity to spar/grapple/roll with someone from outside NGA (not enough of that happens in most of NGA).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Any chance you could find a video in one of those tournaments of someone using Aiki, and someone not using Aiki? I'm really curious if it is something that can actually be seen.

Not aiki:

Lots of aiki movement early, and the first technique executed is quite aiki:

Now, clearly, what they can do is largely facilitated by the rules. You wouldn't see the same interaction if the opponent was a boxer (entirely different entries, which changes the opportunities). Might see about half of the same if the opponent were a Judo player.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The only way you could do it is somehow flinch a guy then keep following that line until they fall over.

But yeah unlikely.

The only "no touch" I've ever experienced used this sort of principle. The guy used his hands to crowd my face as I entered to cause that flinch to put me on my heels, then dropped his arms on a straight vertical to keep me back. It's not a good description, but if you stood double-weighted (50% of weight on each foot, feet parallel) right at a wall and tried to squat without touching the wall, you'd feel what I felt. I wouldn't trust it in a fight, but it was impressively embarrassing to not be able to resist it.

I wonder if those wrestlers and judokas who seem unnaturally rock solid would be an example of aiki?

I've never heard aiki described in a way that would cover that, but I wonder if folks from Daito-ryu would say yes. I had a training partner for several years who had extensive Daito-ryu experience, and he was like that. If he was standing still, all I had was strikes, because there wasn't any way I could find to reliably move him.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing? It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure? It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).

JMHO.


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Unfortunately, most of Aikido doesn't really include sparring, or a reasonable analog. I don't think the fault is the art (it simply is what it is), but in the way it is commonly trained.