Americanized Martial Arts

[clfsean]

But if martial Artts come from China how do we get karate, TKD etc??

Karate is courtesy of Okinawan Te combined with a little Chinese stuff...
TKD is courtesy of Korea by changing the name of Shotokan & adding more kicks...

Is the american culture so shallow that deep experiences have to come from another culture?
Todd

Is American culture so fragile we can't accept something coming to our shores that's truly exceptional without somebody here thinking they've got to "make it better"?

 

[Enson]

TKD is courtesy of Korea by changing the name of Shotokan & adding more kicks...

according to the hwa rang do website every style came from them. how would you explain that?

i think you make something american when an american takes what he knows and improves on it for him and his enviroment. what would be cool to see is a completly (sp?) american style with no outside concept used. like one of the weapons would be a baseball bat, golf club, etc. (maybe with some modifications). oh yeah they have that already... its called street fighting (i think the gangs use it!hee hee!).
peace

 

[The Kai]

Is American culture so fragile we can't accept something coming to our shores that's truly exceptional without somebody here thinking they've got to "make it better"?

Was the Okinwan or japanese culture fragile so they chnanged thier arts?

Todd

 

[clfsean]

according to the hwa rang do website every style came from them. how would you explain that?

Most folks explain hwarang do as Hapkido with some Chinese stuff added... kind of like other made up arts....

i think you make something american when an american takes what he knows and improves on it for him and his enviroment. what would be cool to see is a completly (sp?) american style with no outside concept used. like one of the weapons would be a baseball bat, golf club, etc. (maybe with some modifications). oh yeah they have that already... its called street fighting (i think the gangs use it!hee hee!).
peace

Now that would be an American art & got news for you... not all street fighters/gangs were wholly untrained... :ultracool

 

[clfsean]

Was the Okinwan or japanese culture fragile so they chnanged thier arts?

Todd

I dunno... I don't live there so I really can't comment on that.

However, many of the Japanese arts have stood on their own merits without absorbing/changing an imported fight art.

The Okinawans didn't necessarily change what was learned from China into what they ended up calling martial arts. They modifed/combined their indiginous arts with what came over from Fujian.

 

[Trent]

Wow, a great deal touched upon here. I'm just going to pick out what I recall and let everyone else discuss the rest

I don't think just because something is "Americanized" makes it less of an art. In fact, the Korean, Japanese and Okinawan arts greatly resist being American influenced, keeping their traditions if at all possible and keeping their language. By the way, it is them that is xenophobic and not us. The Japanese and Koreans insisted that their terms be used when learning an outside art. Now, who else does that? (Not a dig, just the way it was.)

Many Americans like anything "exotic" and want to keep the trappings of a foreign land, 'cause it's cool and mysterious. Or perhaps they also wish to pass along their culture with the art like many Filipinos and Indonesians, and that's nice, too.

The only thing we did to "Americanize" Uncle Bill's art, was use English terms in conjunction with the Indonesian and Chinese to facilitate learning. We've also taken advantage of advanced technology for training purposes (e.g., better knives, better treatment for injuries, better made equipment for drilling, etc.). Nothing is diluted, and some other arts can claim that that don't use "American" in the name-- mostly Chinese from what I've observed.

And the idea of the low horse stance being used only because it was taught on ships for footing is in the same category as the belt becoming black through use and dirt showing practice time. They are both stories to impart a lesson, and neither of them true. There are a multitude of useful and very lethal applications that end or begin with the horse stance in conjunction with leg traps, torquing, levers, angulation, whiplash, momentum and gravity that make the good low horse stance very useful. It's a good leg conditioner, too, building tendon and ligament strength as well as muscle endurance; some muscular strength also, but squats and deadlifts are superior for muscle strength building alone. But I digress, Judo's Kano introduced the belt system and the horse stance has combative uses-- now you have been enlightened.

Great topic.

 

[Sin]

MA has just been Americanized more so within the last 40 years....with the movies and the McDojos....But there are some practices out there that teach the same way the first Martial Artists did. For example, My class had a learning experince that i will never forget...The lights where out but there where candle lit throughou the dojo...we worked Twi-Te for abouta half an hour in the dark...to learn how the first Martial Artists where taught...by candle light and by moon light....(i learn the ways of the Okanowan fighter aka hidden fighters...a lot like the ninja) :asian:

 

[DavidCC]

"The only way to have an "American" martial art is to develop something completely based in this country, instead of based on outside influences."


the USA was reated by people from another country, and is populated ni large majority by immigrants and children fo immigrants. So almot NOTHNIG here was developed completely inside this country.

Pasta came to italy from china. yet we all think of pasta as italian. I love Kenpo with pesto sauce.

Americanization does not necessarily make a MA style better or worse. it makes it different. When done right it makes it more suited to more Americans. Not every american is in love with asian culture, and not many of us want to learn to count in Japanese in order to learn to defend ourselves.

Some of the arguments made in this thread are just plain silly. Yes, many americans are shallow and only looking for a quick satisfaction. But if you think that is unique to the USA then you are foolish and need to travel more. Americans have proven over and over that we have an ingenuity and imagination, in quantity and quality that have made our country the most powerful and successful of the modern era. Is that becasue we all just want a quick fix? LOL not hardly.

There is nothing wring with the desire to practice a traditional art in a traditional way. go learn chinese so that you can have a more authentic-feeling kung-fu experience. but you are deeply fooling yourslef if you think it is anything like what the monks did in northern china 500 years ago.

And to deny that the creativity and hard work that people like Ed Parker have put into their life's work was an imrovment in what they started with is to deny the plain facts in front of your eyes.

I don't do EPAK

 

[ppko]

American terminology

american history
Mind?body philosophy
As far as creating your own Kata'a, were'nt Okinwan Kata's a variation of White Crane Kung Fu Forms? How long do we have to do MA before we are mature enough?
Todd

The Okinawans stopped calling what they were doing Kung-Fu also. If you want to make a American MA than fine as I have no problem with that, but don't say that it is TKD, Shotokan, Ryukyu Kempo,etc. I believe that everyone is intitled to their rights and if you feel that you are mature enough to start your own style (or anyone else for that matter) than that is great, I just won't be jumping on that wagon anytime soon. Best of luck in whatever you decide

 

[The Kai]

Allthough the okinwans did'nt use the word Kung fu, it became karate which at the time meant china hand seems to be pointing towards again using the term

Todd

 

[loki09789]

Here's a general question.
When the art of Kung-fu migrated to Okinwa it did'nt take long for the okinwans to make it thier own (Te)
When Te came to japan it did'nt take long to japanize it to Karate.

So after 60 years of Karate being on American Shores, why not american ize it?

Is there a distaste towards americanizing?
Todd

For some it is a bad thing. I think it depends on your motive for training. Are you trying to get the 'experience' of traditional training and cultural preservation/antiquity recreation or are you primarily a 'bottom line' student who wants to get stuff they can use for tournament, ring, street or what ever.

I don't see anything wrong and honestly think it is just the next phase of the evolution. Nothing can exist in a vacuum.

 

[bignick]

karate evolved from chinese arts like kung fu, kung fu evolved from the fighting of arts of india, there is evidence to support that taekwondo evolved from karate and kung fu with influences from older korean arts...

The point i am trying to make is these things evolved. Evolution is a long and slow process and trying to speed it up can result in great acheivements or disaster (think genetic engineering)...nothing is the same as it was yesterday, much less hundreds of years ago...you are not practicing the same style, no matter what it is, that was practiced in the past...give things time and don't try to rush them...i think that's the traditional way...not keep things rigidly the same...but let them grow naturally...

 

[SMP]

As pointed out martial arts developed / evolved based on need. If i am fighting some one on a horse i would kick high. If I was fighting a dwarf this might be a foolish move. To hear someone say that any art has been completely unchanged since the instant it was concieved would surprise me. look at TKD no more horses - gear has changed rules for tournaments etc..

Have arts been americanized? - Yes artforms taught here differ from artforms taught in other countries.
Is there an american art? - We being a relativly young country in a world where information travels worldwide would be unable to develope a form completely independent of all other arts. But basing a artform on what we percieve are the greatest dangers in our or to our society could make an Art differing from others.

For those who are quick to critisize tradition remember that because you dont see the reason or use does not mean it does not exist it simply means you might not know everything. And for those quick to critisize change from tradition or Americanizing remember that some MA greats Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, The founders of Kajukembo were thought of by some as renegades, turn coats and short cutters -

Thanks, and peace be with you

 

[TallAdam85]

Well, if u think about it any school in the us is American martial arts we still follow a lot of American ways.

Anyway I used to really like Being like old martial arts way in Japan.
But as off the last 3 months I really change my views on a lot of ways in the martial arts.

First: What does any Asian fed do for people mostly nothing. People Send the money for dues and membership pay them for testing and what there just another # to them.
I see this in a lot of orgs and fed.
So why wear there country flags on your arm.

Second: I like a lot of old ways like having name in there symbols on your belt but why keep terminology sure it is great to know the name's of the moves in other languages but why learn sayings. American is the most used language.

Third: Karate is like everything it need to keep updating and getting better or it will die out so.

I study tang soo do And still do the forms to keep the tradition as well as the art but i am mixing it for Adam to work for me
This is just How I feel so let me have it

 

[Sin]

Its Ok to modernisze....not to change completly. :asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

Our Grandmaster has told us that he does not teach absolute traditional martial arts, because to do so you would have to give up all the trappings of your modern life, live in solitude and be a hermit. Not many of us are willing to do that. It is perfectly okay to adapt SOME of the culture in which you live to your martial art:
1. Bowing to the American flag as well as the Korean flag.
2. Using English terminology in class. Tae Kwon Do does not have to be conducted in Korean. Some parts should be (tournament sparring), but not all of it does.
3. Using special class patches to make students feel proud of their organization.

But realize it is still Korean Tae Kwon Do. You didn't change the technique, invent new forms, change basics, and invent a new name. And unless you are a 9th Dan with the WTF or ITF, you don't have that authority. Maybe if you have your own wholly independent organization, then you can do whatever you want. Is it still Tae Kwon Do? Doubtful. Point is, you can adjust some of the superficial aspects, stay true to the basic ideas as promulgated by the accepted authorities and it is still Tae Kwon Do or whatever.
However, if I create my own uniform, invent my own forms, create my own technique, and give myself rank in my own organization, it is not Tae Kwon Do because you are now following your own rules.

 

[OC Kid]

Yea, I wouldnt like to sit under a water fall in the middle of winter . Id miss the super bowl and their aient no water falls around here..:>)

 

[BlackCatBonz]

first of all.....what does it mean to americanize something?
that whole phrase brings out confusion.
#2 how do you better karate, kempo, kung fu, chuan fa, whatever you call it?
as far as number 2 is concerned, people have been fighting one another since the first one got ticked off at someone else. when humans started to make a science out of it, they looked at all the ins and outs of how humans moved and attacked and defended, you can only do it so many ways, the body only bends in so many ways, and breaks in so many ways. over the last few thousand years or so, i think we've figured out pretty much all the ways we can control or kill each other. you want to better it? or amercanize it? or modernize it? find me a way that i will never have to fight with another human being again.

shawn