All us martial artists are going to HELL!!!

[Mark Lynn]

With all due respect, please read both Old and New Testament before offering certain things as 'gospel' (yes, pun intended). Also, please keep in mind that my people were, for the most part, ignorant sheepherders, poverty-stricken and oppressed slaves in Egypt - ripe for a new religion and someone to lead them in revolt against their oppressors.

And - Moses never led us into the Promised Land - it was Joshua, the general, the warrior, Moses' successor, who did. G-d told Moses he would never enter the Promised Land - it was all part of the deal. So, G-d sets us up to be invaders of this land (in your perspective and for argument's sake) and then punishes us for doing what he commanded. Talk about dysfunctional parents and children. You will see this in all religions' interactions with G-d - what was he thinking with the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust - which wiped out the majority of my family and that of my husband? The World Wars? All the Middle Eastern Wars? ANY wars? KT

KT

I once again stand corrected if I wrote that Moses led them into the promised land. I know that Moses never crossed over, however up until that time he was leading them out in the desert/wilderness and that was what I meant.

On your statement about them being oppressed slaves and being ripe for a revolt. I dissagree in a sense. I believe that G-d had to show not only the egyptians (the oppressors) but the slaves (Jews) as well His power through the miracles (i.e. plagues, etc. etc.) at first they went from small miracles that only the people at the place (turning the shaft into a snake) could see to a much broader wider scale so that everyone (oppressors and slaves could see) i.e. turning of the Nile to blood, the frogs, locusts, slaying of the first born etc. etc.

However when faced with a threat (at the parting of the Red Sea) they grew afraid Exd. 14:10-13. So I don't think they were ever really ready to have a revolt, or that they couldn't. Rahter it was G-d who chose the time and the place to lead them out.

Dysfuncational kids not parent. (And I don't just mean the Jews, I mean in a whole world view, everyone.) Again the Crusades, the Inquistion, the Holocust, man's doing not G-d's. I don't believe that G-d told Hitler to try and wipe out the Jewish race, I don't believe G-d told a bunch of priests to torture people of other faiths (Christian) for not believing in the pope or the Catholic church, or to fight in the Crusades as well.

KT, Mark W. and anyone else of Jewish faith, I understand completely that we will see things written in the bible differently. I was responding to a post about contridictions in the bible and trying to explain a different view point (mine) that there aren't contradictions. I do not in any way mean to imply that Jewish people were/are less importance or whatever (I can't find the words). I mean no disrespect, I have no hard feelings, I not a Jewish hater, etc. etc.

As I said before, I apologize if I offended anyone and I apologize to you (KT)about bringing up something that would cause you hurt, in especially in light of your loss of your husband.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

In my opinion, God did not direct men to start these things. They were done by men. I think that we can all agree that as a species, man is capable of doing evil things. What is more, I think that man will often use religion as an excuse to do these things. IMO, God is even more disgusted with those actions than we are. After all, He has had to put up with us skrewing up and blaming Him for quite a long time.

Baytor

I agree totally.

Mark

 

[kenpo tiger]

KT

I once again stand corrected if I wrote that Moses led them into the promised land. I know that Moses never crossed over, however up until that time he was leading them out in the desert/wilderness and that was what I meant.

On your statement about them being oppressed slaves and being ripe for a revolt. I dissagree in a sense. I believe that G-d had to show not only the egyptians (the oppressors) but the slaves (Jews) as well His power through the miracles (i.e. plagues, etc. etc.) at first they went from small miracles that only the people at the place (turning the shaft into a snake) could see to a much broader wider scale so that everyone (oppressors and slaves could see) i.e. turning of the Nile to blood, the frogs, locusts, slaying of the first born etc. etc.

However when faced with a threat (at the parting of the Red Sea) they grew afraid Exd. 14:10-13. So I don't think they were ever really ready to have a revolt, or that they couldn't. Rahter it was G-d who chose the time and the place to lead them out.

Dysfuncational kids not parent. (And I don't just mean the Jews, I mean in a whole world view, everyone.) Again the Crusades, the Inquistion, the Holocust, man's doing not G-d's. I don't believe that G-d told Hitler to try and wipe out the Jewish race, I don't believe G-d told a bunch of priests to torture people of other faiths (Christian) for not believing in the pope or the Catholic church, or to fight in the Crusades as well.

KT, Mark W. and anyone else of Jewish faith, I understand completely that we will see things written in the bible differently. I was responding to a post about contridictions in the bible and trying to explain a different view point (mine) that there aren't contradictions. I do not in any way mean to imply that Jewish people were/are less importance or whatever (I can't find the words). I mean no disrespect, I have no hard feelings, I not a Jewish hater, etc. etc.

As I said before, I apologize if I offended anyone and I apologize to you (KT)about bringing up something that would cause you hurt, in especially in light of your loss of your husband.

Mark

A great deal of my husband's family were lost in the concentration camps, as well as a good portion of my relatives. (My husband is alive and well and playing golf at the moment!)

As to the Holocaust, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition. I understand your point that G-d wasn't the one who perpetrated those crimes against humanity. (As we all know, there were more than Jews slaughtered during the Holocaust.) However, there were (and still are) many people who invoke G-d's name in order to justify their actions. Whether you believe that G-d is the one who determines what happens is, of course, a personal matter and is irrevocably linked to your religious beliefs most times.

Isn't it interesting that G-d chose Moses, of all people. He had a speech impediment and was a humble sheepherder. He was also as superstitious as the next person. That he was the instrument through which G-d chose to manifest his displeasure is very interesting, don't you think? KT

 

[DoxN4cer]

Did anybody send an e-mail to the link provided on the page? I did. No reply to date.

Tim Kashino

 

[Baytor]

Moses wasn't just a sheppard, if I remember correctly (as far as the stories go). He was brought up in the royal court. He knew people there. He may have had some sort of military training as a result. Yes, he was a very humble man, he had a speach problem. He had a very bad temper. He also was an educated and trained man. I think he is a very inspiring character.

 

[bignick]

I wrote a paper along these lines my freshman year in college..we had to write a paper summing up our religious beliefs..the gist of mine was that i was raised a christian and as i got older i saw things wrong with how the church was run, and since atheism is less about there not being a god, but believing man can do better(i.e. faith in man)...i summed myself up as an atheist who as lost faith in my religion, so there's only one other place to turn...these problems all stem from western religions belief that there is only one true way and if you don't follow that way your damned...i'm a christian, lutheran to be exact...and i believe in my G-d and Jesus, if you don't are you going to hell? my teaching could lead me to believe that...but my teaching also tells me that judgement is reserved for G-d alone so i'll leave it up to the one in charge when in comes to that...

but i remember having a discussion when i was around thirteen...i think it was sunday school...but i can't remember...anyway...the guy that was teaching(a laywer) asked us this...if a little budhhist boy is living in remote part of asia...farming, etc...and never even hears about christianity...lives a good life and dies...does he go to hell?

 

[Ceicei]

but i remember having a discussion when i was around thirteen...i think it was sunday school...but i can't remember...anyway...the guy that was teaching(a laywer) asked us this...if a little budhhist boy is living in remote part of asia...farming, etc...and never even hears about christianity...lives a good life and dies...does he go to hell?

No, he doesn't go to hell. The God I believe takes into consideration the hearts and minds.

- Ceicei

 

[TonyM.]

At least there will be plenty of preachers for me to beat up when I get there.

 

[Insedia_Cantharis]

AI! :snipe2: That seems kinda meen....:tantrum: Don't worry, I believe in god, and I'm pretty sure this is just some sort of christianized temper-tantrum.:tantrum:

 

[bignick]

yes i agree he doesn't go to hell...i guess there's only one real way to settle this...


anybody want to volunteer to find out whether or not martial artists go to hell?

of course, reporting back to us might be a problem

 

[Mark Lynn]

1) I spoke about NOT releasing my anger at their arrogance and superior attitudes. One fella I knew in particular (among many of the same "type" over the years) kept insisting that baptism wasn't necessary for salvation. That simply calling upon the name of the Lord was sufficent. He also insisted that I didn't KNOW Jesus... I kept telling him that I didn't know HIS Jesus and stalked off before I lost it with him.

2) That Jesus was an extremist is over simplifying the facts about his err... creation of a new faith/religion/belief system. He did use violence in act (moneychangers) and verbally (Peter). To say he was non-violent is a mis-nomer IMO.
Yes, he did radically change thinking and beliefs of the day but slowly, it was decades before Rome converted and the predominate Jewish faith/people didn't. There were thousands of converts by Paul and others after Jesus and the 12 but as a whole Judaism prevailed in Israel. It was the rest of the world that converted (or not). As for the Jews they should be respected for their own beliefs as we hold on to ours, neither should hold one against the other.

3) Well, at least we agree upon somethings eh? :uhyeah:

~Peace~ :asian:

MACaver
I still haven't figured out how to put multiple quotes in a post so I added numbers to your post to address it (and edited it).

1) I reread your orignial post and you did state aboout you not releasing your anger. What I was trying to bring out was in order not to release your anger there must be anger there in the first place to release (over their superior attitudes towards you). And then you stated the comment about baptisim which I took as a superior attittude (statement on your part) hence the comment on calling the kettle black. I apologize if I misunderstood what happened or the intent of your post.

And it could be that I was sensitive in reading your post about the babtisim comment because I have had the same thing done to me but saying I must be baptized and that I was damned to hell because at the time I wasn't. ( I had planned not to be baptized just so I could show them I was right and they were wrong, thumb my nose at them so to speak when standing at the pearly gates. Naana Naana Naaaana (think of little boy whine here with thumb on nose fingers out stretched pointing at my tormentors and you get the idea) ) Then I came to my senses, I had a rebellious attitude.

2) But yet to call Jesus violent I would have to disagree with. I agree about throwing out the money changers that was an violent act (one of rightoues anger IMHO), however I wouldn't use one recorded instance to say he had an anger problem (just kidding) or that he was violent. When I think of people who are extermemists and are violent I think of people who causing change by force (9/11, Moa Se Tung (?), Suicide bombers, Stalin, Hitler etc. etc.). Verbally speaking out to Peter to correct him/prove a point/teach him etc. I don't still as a violent act.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

Take care
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Boarman,

1) The thing to remember in referencing ancient peoples actions/views and statements is cultural context and NOT our current values. Lot offered his daughters up to the mob as the ultimate gesture of hospitallity to the Agents of God that were under his care. Women were second class citizens within the culture and, though loved and cherished in their own way, would have been 'traded' off for marriage any way. Bartering their virtue and possibly their lives for the protection of the men/agents of God/Angels within that culture and time would be considered almost noble.

2)There was no rain in the time of Noah? I don't know about that, since there really isn't any mention of "NO RAIN" in that portion of the text (at least in the English translations I have seen). The other thing to scratch your head over is the reference to the entire world being flooded over.... in a time when the American continents, England and parts of Europe would not have been known to a chronicler of that time per se. Taking hyperbole and exageration as accurate descriptions (especially from translations) instead of just story telling techniques is something to be cautious about. I am pretty sure that there was rain in Noah's time of possible existence, even if it was rare in a desert environment. I could discuss each numbered point in detail, but I think this example shows how even a single source translation to English can have multiple interpretations depending on how you are looking at it: Religious/Theologically, historical/archeological, Symbollic/metaphorical.... Or any combination of these. Don't even get me going on the Existential Christians and other Theological/Philosophical combinations that have sprouted up over time. THere are even Feminist interpretations of the Bible (not a jab, just an example of how many and varied the possible views of this piece of text will have.)

3) You seem to be confusing the thematic seam that you have found that works for you when you read through the Bible. My point was simply to point out the contradictions. You have found a way to reconcile them for yourself. Good. But, understanding the historical and cultural context of the times described, though doesn't change our own reaction, does put a perspective on things.

I know this is a long one, but one more point:

4) The mustard plant symbol that Jesus uses has been explained by modern Christians as a nice story of how Christianity will grow like a plant beyond the original seed it started from.....not to the ears/minds of the original audience.

The mustard plant is a bitter and tenaciaous weed that, though valuable for cooking and variety, leaves a bitter after taste that isn't pleasant like a fruit would be. Also, mustard plants are near impossible to get rid of once they have taken root.

5) So, to the listeners of this story from Jesus' own lips might take this metaphor to mean that Christianity would be a necessary but bitter spiritual medicine for people AND that once it took root in your soul (as well as a bitter problem for the Roman Empire and as a counter culture to the Jewish Pharetic structure) it would not be exterminated, but would grow inside you (holy spirit) to leave you with no choice but to wrestle with the changes that the 'seed' had set in motion....

6) That, to me, sounds more realistic and less Disney when you really contemplate how much people struggle with their spirtual lives BUT seem to think that once they have found Religion things are suppose to get easier...NO. Things don't get any easier, they get harder....but it is the hard that makes it worth it in the long run.

Paul

Thanks for the response, well though out. I edited out the first part since you weren't addressing me but very good points (which I agree with). I added numbers to your post so I could address them.

1) I agree with your point here totally about this being what Lot was suposed to do, culturely. And I wasn't trying to put my values on it. What I was referring to was that we as humans sin and we gravitate towards sin which causes us to sin more. This is where I was coming from.
a) Lot chose to go and live in Soddom, when Abraham gave him the option of where to live he chose what appealed to his eye and it was Soddom (that region).
b)He became a figure of importance there. In a city that was so corrupt and sinful that G-d was going to judge it he's someone of importance. Therefore he was corrupted as well (maybe not in all of the same sins but... there was influence).
c) When the angelic beings show up at his door he offers his daughters. Culturely this is the right thing to do, however he was in the presence of these beings and yet he is not leaning on G-d or His hosts for protection but on himself.
d) Lot's wife wanted the old life and turned around during the destruction. Again after what went on during the night she still disobeyed (sinned) and was judged.
e) Lot's daughters after the event get him drunk and sleep with him (big sin here).
I think Lot kind of failed as a father, and he was saved from the event/judgement of the city because of Abraham or G-d wanting to prove something to Abraham, not because Lot was good and deserved to be saved. I was defending my point of view that to me this wasn't a contradiction of G-d being unmerciful in His judgement of the city.

Throughout the OT there are plenty of examples of we (human beings) relying on our own powers/ways/understandings to try and do G-d's work. Anywhere from wars/fighting wars to starting new nations (Ishmal and Issac).

2) Sorry my mistake, Paul you are right here. There is no mention of rain/no rain in the OT prior to the flood. Now here I was putting forth my views/vaules and using the OT. I believe in a literal six day creation, and that the flood caused the world we live in to be radically changed into what we have today. Therefore I don't believe in the localized flood theory. There are sciptures that do back this up, however we (humans) don't know for sure and there are many different beliefs on this event(s) the creation and the flood.

I agrue from a non contradictory/no contradiction stance on the bible. So in that case I have had to defend why there was a flood and these other tough points of view etc. etc.

Paul I don't use a single source translation, I have used many different (albeit) English translations and read different source books etc. etc. on these subject matters. I believe you should use all reasources at a person's disposal to learn about the subject. And I agree there are many different views on these subjects.

3) Yes I have found a Thematic seam (Paul on a side note. I really enjoy your posts you come up with some cool phrases/words/points of view etc. etc. ). But what did I confuse, did I put forth confusion? Or are you saying that I'm confusing my thematic seam and using it to interupt the bible. If so than you are probably right as I stated above.

4) Good point here, the Camel going through the Eye of the Needle is a good example as well.

5) This of course is spectulation on what the hears of this parable/story/teaching thought. But.... Not everyone who heard this story surely became a convert to Christ. While this is a good example for the geniune converts there are plenty of people where the seed didn't doesn't take root. Hence the parable of the seed and the different types of soil.

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit (the seed) is planted in everyone and causes us (humanity) to wrestle with the changes brought about because of it? Or are you using this to describe a more localized application in individual believers in Juseus Christ?

6) From this point I take it you are refering to a more localized application and I would agree with you. Things do get harder and it's worth it.

Take care Paul
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

A great deal of my husband's family were lost in the concentration camps, as well as a good portion of my relatives. (My husband is alive and well and playing golf at the moment!)

As to the Holocaust, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition. I understand your point that G-d wasn't the one who perpetrated those crimes against humanity. (As we all know, there were more than Jews slaughtered during the Holocaust.) However, there were (and still are) many people who invoke G-d's name in order to justify their actions. Whether you believe that G-d is the one who determines what happens is, of course, a personal matter and is irrevocably linked to your religious beliefs most times.

Isn't it interesting that G-d chose Moses, of all people. He had a speech impediment and was a humble sheepherder. He was also as superstitious as the next person. That he was the instrument through which G-d chose to manifest his displeasure is very interesting, don't you think? KT

KT
I'm sorry for your loss.

Many times people invoke G-d's name to do thier own will. The history of the christian church, and the world are full of such examples. Because man does these things doesn't mean that G-d did, and I tend to speak out when I feel people are blaming G-d for our doings. On this large scale wars and such it's easily seen, but it's on the smaller scale the stuff under the radar that we (people in general) need to be careful of.

I've worked with individuals who use the bible to teach that Black people are the scourge of the earth and spawn of the devil and the white man is G-d's chosen race. That the Jewish people lost that title when Christ was crucified and the anglo (white) was chosen instead.

I've worked with people who justify their sins by believing they are saved because they said a prayer when they were a child and have just lead a sinful life cheating on their spouses, drinking and whoring around.

And of course we've seen how people invoke G-d's name to blow up buildings and themselves so they can get to paradise.

As to G-d choosing Moses, your right it is interesting. Fact is isn't it interesting that prior to Moses he choose Abraham and that from him would come the blessing and a great nation. G-d choose to create the nation (the Jews) of Israel prior to the enslavement of the people and Moses. I don't think he was an instrument to display His displeasure though. Rahter he was chosen before he was any of that to be the one who would lead His chosen people out of bondage and to show the power of G-d.

This thread and the posts got me to reread some of the passages/chapters in the OT about the exodus of the people and the wanderings in the desert/wilderness. Several times in the various books of the OT the (to use Paul's phase) thematic seam is G-d chose, and that His power was to be displayed so that all of the nations (in that area, and in later times ours) would know of His glory. The creating of the Jewish race/nation, the exodus from Egypt, the taking of the promised land all are part of it (IMHO).

I think I have finally answered/responded to anyone who qouted me. Yeah! Now I can go onto another thread and see what else has been going on.

With repsect
Mark

Mark

 

[MA-Caver]

MACaver
I still haven't figured out how to put multiple quotes in a post so I added numbers to your post to address it (and edited it).

1) I reread your orignial post and you did state aboout you not releasing your anger. What I was trying to bring out was in order not to release your anger there must be anger there in the first place to release (over their superior attitudes towards you). And then you stated the comment about baptisim which I took as a superior attittude (statement on your part) hence the comment on calling the kettle black. I apologize if I misunderstood what happened or the intent of your post.

And it could be that I was sensitive in reading your post about the babtisim comment because I have had the same thing done to me but saying I must be baptized and that I was damned to hell because at the time I wasn't. ( I had planned not to be baptized just so I could show them I was right and they were wrong, thumb my nose at them so to speak when standing at the pearly gates. Naana Naana Naaaana (think of little boy whine here with thumb on nose fingers out stretched pointing at my tormentors and you get the idea) ) Then I came to my senses, I had a rebellious attitude.

2) But yet to call Jesus violent I would have to disagree with. I agree about throwing out the money changers that was an violent act (one of rightoues anger IMHO), however I wouldn't use one recorded instance to say he had an anger problem (just kidding) or that he was violent. When I think of people who are extermemists and are violent I think of people who causing change by force (9/11, Moa Se Tung (?), Suicide bombers, Stalin, Hitler etc. etc.). Verbally speaking out to Peter to correct him/prove a point/teach him etc. I don't still as a violent act.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

Take care
Mark

Mark, God Bless you for keeping this Civil... heh heh.
Hopefully I'm not going to veer off topic by explaining myself and how I deal with people on a one to one basis... Yes I get angry, it's a human emotion and mine... bwa ha ha alll mine... at least when I feel it anyway... it's yours when you feel it and so on with everyone else... then we're responsible for whatever feelings we have. I take umbrage over anyone who thinks they're superior over me and tries to tell me something that my heart and soul has acknowledge via the Holy Spirit to be right...is wrong. No man ( or woman) is better than me and no man is worse than I am. We're all equal...just better at DOING somethings than others. So when anyone tries to tell me (nasally voice) "I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell because you don't believe in Jeesus the way ah dew" Then yeah I'm going to get angry with them and :bird:. It's just all :bs:
(heh, heh... been waiting for a thread where I can use that one...heh heh heh )

"They" (fundamentalist) have given me that various "you must be baptised" or you don't need to be baptised (all the while living a double standard) ... and it's the delivery that made it a superior attitude.
Either way, we can go on and on about this and it could use a different thread to do so....

(back to topic! )
We as Martial Artists, respect one another for our various choices in the myriad of arts out there to learn. We compare and we examine and share notes with one another here. We do our best to do THAT civil and at times tongue in cheek. When you get an outsider coming in and saying that "we're DAMNED TO HELL!" because we have made the choice to study something that actually HELPS us become better human beings (in it's own way)... we're gonna take it personally because we KNOW differently.

The thread is about judgement upon others when ignorance is all they got to go on. Naturally we're going to take offense to it, especially when they (fundies) refuse to even try or study it (MA) a bit more before passing judgement upon those who do know and live the arts.

Mebbe we'd like to be there when God passes His judgement upon them and then again mebbe we wouldn't want to.... it'd be just too heart breaking to (for??) us. Then again looking at the scheme of things and knowing time is infinite to Him... God may just judge us individually one at a time and everyone else is waiting on the outside looking in. ...Sir, take a number and have a seat... Next soul please. We won't know until it happens to us.

 

[KenpoTess]

MOD NOTE

Thread Moved to Study for obvious reasons

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-

 

[heretic888]

I will only comment briefly, so here goes:

1) I don't believe in a "Hell" as most people understand the term, so it doesn't particularly concern me whether I go "there" or not.

2) Martial arts are a positive means of growth and personal development in the lives of their students, which is more than I can say for fundamentalist strands of religion.

3) If I go to Hell for practicing martial arts, then I will gladly go to Hell for practicing martial arts. If God has a problem with that, then he is a deity unworthy of reverence in the first place. Actually, if a deity is sending people to a pit of eternal torment because they don't "believe in" what he wants them to, then he is doubly unworthy of reverence.

4) I personally don't believe either "Jesus" or "Moses" actually existed historically, so the particulars of their lives are (to me) irrelevant.

Laterz.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!


http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm


What a bunch of wing nuts!


Regards,


Steve

Yep I agree with you Steve. What a bunch of nuts....

Look out Waco here comes another bunch of nuts for the barrel.

The scarey thing is that there are prob. some people who believe this crap they put up about us.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[bignick]

umm...the whole point of this thread...at least from what i've seen is how silly and ridiculous that page was...i don't think too many people here think they are going to hell for practicing martial arts

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

umm...the whole point of this thread...at least from what i've seen is how silly and ridiculous that page was...i don't think too many people here think they are going to hell for practicing martial arts

I agree with you I dont think any of us here will take it seriously.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

 

[bignick]

in fact, i can't really think of anyone that thinks they're going to hell in general...