All us martial artists are going to HELL!!!

[Kenpo Mama]

Oh no!! Well........if I practice "Heavenly Ascent" really really hard and with much determination until the end of my days, can I change my fate and still go to Heaven?!! :idunno: :uhyeah:

Well now that would really be a "Twist of Fate" now wouldn't it!!!!!

Kenpo Mama :ultracool

 

[Shodan]

Ha ha!! Yes indeed!! I will see those two techs. in a whole different way now!!

:asian:

 

[marshallbd]

My Instructor here that I train under is a 3rd Dan in Kenpo and he is a Minister aka Christian.

Practicing Judaism does not conflict with Martial Arts Training in the sense that We are required to protect our community and our families from our enemies.

I know Jewish Men that could put an gun shop to shame lol. If you get the Jewish Week Newspaper once in awhile you will see an article or an ad for Martial Arts Training run or owned by a Jewish Person.

I know and heard of Rabbi's that practice Karate and other Arts. The Torah and the Talmud (Oral Law) does not forbid Military Duty or working in Public Services such as Law Enforcement which requires skills that may involve the use of MA Tactics.

Look at Grandmaster Mike Pick of the Universal Kenpo Federation....He is a practicing Jew and a fine example of a martial artist and human being. I dont believe this Martial Artists are going to hell bunk. I am a Martial Artist, and a Christian, who is thankful for his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! :asian:

 

[auxprix]

I've seen this sight before. These are the type of fundementalists that are only concerned about the fundementals of what other people are doing.

I will agree with them on one point. Martial arts often have some basis in eastern philosophies.

But they're wrong about everything else. Martial arts is not an outlet for worshiping eastern deities. What it teaches nowadays is parallel to the bible: Respect, personal growth, concern for your health and wellbeing....the list goes on. I really think that the christian God has a few more things to worry about other than people perfecting their side-kicks. If this is something of concern to Him, I would like to direct His attention to all of the people in the world who are killing others in His name.

 

[shaolinchi]

just out of curiousity, do you guys think there are sparring rings down in hell for us? i mean, if we're going down, we might as well have fun!

 

[loki09789]

HHJarhead,

THis reads like Fundamental or Born again ideology. If that is the case, there is a serious contradiction in the reasoning. According to that kind of ideology, the ONLY path to salvation is by sincerely asking God/Jesus to be your lord and Savior and opening yourself up to that.

If you have done that, according to this ideology, NOTHING you do will make you 'UNSAVED' to include practicing martial arts, drinking, adultery..... because you have been saved by the Omnimerciful, all forgiving savior - regardless of your flaws and weaknesses.....


Therefore, again based on this view, it isn't a matter of studying or NOT studying martial arts that is the problem it is choosing to be open to "Heretical" ideologies and not choosing to be saved by Jesus....

The idea is that if you have chosen to be saved within the Born again ideological sense, that your acts and thoughts are morally good (based on th biblical interpretation they take) because you are motivated by LOVE of God (Agapei, in the Greek) and not motivated by fear of damnation... doesn't sound like that when you hear to fire and brimstone sermons by some pastors though......

I read this stuff and remember my good friend from NCO school who was educated at a Born again/Bible college and how even he shrugged off some of these simplistic, irrational views to the faith. He really opened my eyes to the postitive side of Christian spirituallity/Baptist/Born again ideology. It is amazing the power of being educated within and across ideological lines....

THough I can respect the devotion to faith, I don't appreciate the "casting the first stone" idea that text like this presents.

If martial artists are "damned" I must really be in trouble because I was a serviceman as well, I practiced and trained and employed skills in the reality of possible killing and such. According to this logic, all servicemen/women are 'doomed' as well because they are serving their oath to a nation at the expense of the Mosaic laws of the Ten Commandments (even though there were A LOT of additions to mosaic law as time went on, most Christian types use the TC's like Politic types use the Preamble or the Declaration of Independents when discussing Constitutional interpretation.)

 

[SMP]

please dont cast all christian believers into one pile. It shows as much ignorance as the web page being discussed. - food for thought - In the new testiment Jesus tossed the merchants out of the temple. - the temple was one of the most guarded areas of the city.- hmm - in Luke 22.36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

this was a little before one of the deciples cut off a guards ear with a sword ( most scholars believe a roman short sword, due to time period).


I think these areas of the bible are often forgoten in our hug fest churches.

 

[MA-Caver]

please dont cast all christian believers into one pile. It shows as much ignorance as the web page being discussed. - food for thought - In the new testiment Jesus tossed the merchants out of the temple. - the temple was one of the most guarded areas of the city.- hmm - in Luke 22.36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

this was a little before one of the deciples cut off a guards ear with a sword ( most scholars believe a roman short sword, due to time period).

I think these areas of the bible are often forgoten in our hug fest churches.

Well, super-fundamentalist christians like the one demonstrated at the website tend to lump people into two piles...the saved and the damned. Nothing we do or say will convince them that we have a strong abiding faith in our Lord Christ like they do. We either believe as they do or are condemned to everlasting fire and damnation. I've met dozens of these types of people and it's all I can do to not to unlease my anger and offense upon them for the sheer arrogance that they portray because of the fact that they've been SAVED. They rub me the wrong way...thus the reason for my first post reply on this thread.
Sad thing is that many of them haven't even been baptised. They believe that just believing in Jesus and asking Him to save them will allow them into the kingdom of heaven. The bible shows differently.

Jesus advocated peacemaking and non-violence but He wasn't an extremist like Ghandi was, He did indeed created a whip and drove out the moneychangers at the temple. The next day however it was business as usual and He didn't do anything. He stated His opinion of the matter. He didn't stop Paul from cutting off the ear of a Temple Guard but did stop him from creating more havoc, because obviously once was enough and a point was made. Followers will fight if need be. Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2. it would cause unnecessary bloodshed of the people (the poor) at the hands of the Romans. He was making a point there as well. No matter what they do to Him, He will still and did rise above them.

Mods, am thinking that this thread now probably needs to be moved to the Study or elsewhere, as it's hell and gone ( :idunno: pun) from General Self Defense.. or maybe it is Self Defense...against these morons that want to save the world.

 

[Rob Broad]

This kind of stuff usually makes me laugh. But if we are going to hell it will be a great party. I'll meet y'all at the gates and I'll bring the beer.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Religion is a two edged sword due to the emotional attachment one has for it. There are good and bad in every religion on the planet.

However one should respect the beliefs of others and not infringe or oppose those beliefs that is why we have had so many wars and killings over the eons.

Your Faith should be practiced in private but in the public or in business you should live by the moral code of your beliefs but do not evanglze or push your views upon others unless approached by someone then it should be discussed in private setting.

 

[bignick]

But if we are going to hell it will be a great party. I'll meet y'all at the gates and I'll bring the beer.

the devil always did have the best music

 

[auxprix]

the devil always did have the best music

True. I'll take the Stones over Creed anyday!

 

[loki09789]

please dont cast all christian believers into one pile. It shows as much ignorance as the web page being discussed. - food for thought - In the new testiment Jesus tossed the merchants out of the temple. - the temple was one of the most guarded areas of the city.- hmm - in Luke 22.36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

this was a little before one of the deciples cut off a guards ear with a sword ( most scholars believe a roman short sword, due to time period).


I think these areas of the bible are often forgoten in our hug fest churches.

Not trying to cast christian believers into any piles. As a catholic, I would say I am a fellow christian believer. My point was to point out how a very little/narrow education can really make life a contradiction that some just don't want to face.

The path to spirtitual maturity and faith can start with any of these 'christian schools' (if you choose to follow the christian way all) as long as you just open your eyes to other views and 'Godly gifts' of perspective, understanding, and education on the topic.

The bible (new and old testament) contradicts itself thematically from story to story, translation to translation....but people insist on saying "the bible tells us" instead of speaking honestly by saying "I am using these set scriptures to justify my interpretation..." Here is another case of just such a thing.

THe point about my friend from NCO school was to show that not all Fundamental Christians are 'wing nuts' but, just like any other segment of society, there are 'wing nuts' and 'reasonable' types.

 

[Mark Lynn]

..... 1) We either believe as they do or are condemned to everlasting fire and damnation. I've met dozens of these types of people and it's all I can do to not to unlease my anger and offense upon them for the sheer arrogance that they portray because of the fact that they've been SAVED. .....Sad thing is that many of them haven't even been baptised. They believe that just believing in Jesus and asking Him to save them will allow them into the kingdom of heaven. The bible shows differently.

2) .....but He wasn't an extremist

3).... He didn't stop Paul from cutting off the ear of a Temple Guard but did stop him from creating more havoc, because obviously once was enough and a point was made. Followers will fight if need be. Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2..... .

MACaver
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) Isn't your statement here like the pot calling the kettle black? I mean you talk about unleasing your anger at them for their sheer arrogance for their view point. And then you state our comments about them believing in being saved without being baptized. How do you know the guy who wrote this isn't baptized or that he or others who haven't been baptized aren't saved You state "the bible shows differently" I'll be glad to back it up that it doesn't show differently. For starters read Acts.

2) How was Christ not an extremist? He turned the religous (Jewish) order of his day completly on it's head, caused people to turn their lives around, and to go out and spread His message (the gospel) to the reaches of their known world.

3) It was Peter who cut the guards off ear not Paul. Paul converted/gave his life to Christ on the road to Damascus in Acts. Jesus knew what He was going to do, He didn't need Peter to try and start anything. Peter wanted to try and stop Jesus from going to the cross since it didn't fit with his (Peter's) plan, remember "get behind me Satan", Peter was still acting on his own here in the garden. Jesus showed that He was still in control over things by healing the guards ear, not that a point was made that His followers would stand up and fight for Him if need be. Jesus went willingly to cross for us.

"Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2....." There is no need for 2, enough said. (It would go against the Father's (God's) plan.)

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

The bible (new and old testament) contradicts itself thematically from story to story, translation to translation....but people insist on saying "the bible tells us" instead of speaking honestly by saying "I am using these set scriptures to justify my interpretation..." Here is another case of just such a thing.

Hi Paul

OK I have to bite here, please explain this statement about the contradictions thematically from story to story, translation to translation.

I think I understand your point if it's that people use verses to prove there points and they don't look at other verses in context to see if their point is valid. Or they say well it's only the KJV and not the NIV, NASB, the NKJV etc. etc. However I don't find the bible contradicting. Otherwise how can we have faith in what it says in that it's inspried by God?

FWIW I've only really struggled with two doctrines that seem to be contradicting to me, however godly men have struggled with them over the past several hundred years and they haven't figured it out as well (I mean people still see both sides of the issue) so I figure why worry about it. But thats different than you statement about themactically different form story to story.

With respect
Mark

If you want to respond off line that's cool as well, however my PM box is full I'll try and clear it if you want to answer it off line.

 

[loki09789]

Hi Paul

OK I have to bite here, please explain this statement about the contradictions thematically from story to story, translation to translation.

I think I understand your point if it's that people use verses to prove there points and they don't look at other verses in context to see if their point is valid. Or they say well it's only the KJV and not the NIV, NASB, the NKJV etc. etc. However I don't find the bible contradicting. Otherwise how can we have faith in what it says in that it's inspried by God?

FWIW I've only really struggled with two doctrines that seem to be contradicting to me, however godly men have struggled with them over the past several hundred years and they haven't figured it out as well (I mean people still see both sides of the issue) so I figure why worry about it. But thats different than you statement about themactically different form story to story.

With respect
Mark

If you want to respond off line that's cool as well, however my PM box is full I'll try and clear it if you want to answer it off line.

God is a god of peace and love yet he spoke to Prophets (I believe Samual) who advised that Jewish troops were to commit genecide on an enemy to the last goat/sheep/cattle... he also wiped the race of man from the planet in a flood saving only Noah. God also destroyed all but one family in Soddom and Gomorrha... One of the most celebrated heros of the old testament (David) was, in essence, a guerrila warrior and (in some eyes) a terrorist... Mosaic law that started with the ten commandments (Godly communicated or written depending on who you talk to) and expanded well beyond that count to include justified murder of a wife guilty of adultery by stoning.

Jesus satisified the Messianic 'signs' with things like riding into Bethelehem on a mule (though the different new testament books will dispute how this event exactly happened) and such yet he didn't meet the expectations of the day that the Messiah was an old school Jewish war hero like old king David. Jesus, in comparing the different gospels, is either the son of man or the son of God. Jesus also at times will tell people that xyz is the way to God and that all will be forgiven with things like deeds being like "unclean rags", yet in another gospel or scene he will say that repentent behavior and reconsiliation is the way to salvation....Jesus' recognition as the true messiah was partly based on the presence of the three magi (read astrologists/pagan/false idol worshippers) with their gifts and divinations/stargazings that predicted Jesus' birth. Moses used his 'works' to duel against the Pharoahs magi but Jesus says essentially that Miracles are not to be done as parlor tricks to satisfy the whims of unbelievers....

Please don't confuse my 'contradiction' statement to mean that I don't think it is divine or inspirational. It is a mystery for each person to unlock in their own way and devotion can be seen as a demonstration of how seriously a person wants to 'get closer to God' by truly understanding what is or is not there to see, either in the Bible or people....

Too many times people who put faith above all only parrot what they have been pointed to read/understand OR only search/see things that justify what they do....

I say that like the many faces of the Buddhist mountain koan or the various experiences of the Plato's blind men explaining an elephant, we have to explore and explore to really understand.

My favorite quote about this subject comes from "Shadowlands" about C.S.Lewis (Played by Anthony Hopkins): "I don't pray to change God, I pray to change myself...", I would say the same for really reading/knowing the text of the bible and understanding the transliteration history of it.

 

[Randy Strausbaugh]

Jesus says essentially that Miracles are not to be done as parlor tricks to satisfy the whims of unbelievers....

But it is OK to change water into wine for a wedding. The Power Transcendant providing hooch for a hootenanny.
Ah, well - no worries. There are people in Hell who owe me favors. Guess all this demonic Eastern stuff will let me call them in one day.
More seriously, people have the right to believe as they wish, and we all have the right to agree or disagree as we choose. I don't get too upset since no one's religious inclinations has ever prevented me from training or thinking as I do. Nor do my religious inclinations (or lack thereof) ever prevent others from living/training/thinking as they do. Ain't America grand?

 

[Mark Lynn]

1) God is a god of peace and love yet he spoke to Prophets (I believe Samual) who advised that Jewish troops were to commit genecide on an enemy to the last goat/sheep/cattle... 2) he also wiped the race of man from the planet in a flood saving only Noah. 3) God also destroyed all but one family in Soddom and Gomorrha... 4) One of the most celebrated heros of the old testament (David) was, in essence, a guerrila warrior and (in some eyes) a terrorist... 5) Mosaic law that started with the ten commandments (Godly communicated or written depending on who you talk to) and expanded well beyond that count to include justified murder of a wife guilty of adultery by stoning.

6) Jesus satisified the Messianic 'signs' with things like riding into Bethelehem on a mule (though the different new testament books will dispute how this event exactly happened) and such yet he didn't meet the expectations of the day that the Messiah was an old school Jewish war hero like old king David. 7) Jesus, in comparing the different gospels, is either the son of man or the son of God. 8) Jesus also at times will tell people that xyz is the way to God and that all will be forgiven with things like deeds being like "unclean rags", yet in another gospel or scene he will say that repentent behavior and reconsiliation is the way to salvation....Jesus' recognition as the true messiah was partly based on the presence of the three magi (read astrologists/pagan/false idol worshippers) with their gifts and divinations/stargazings that predicted Jesus' birth. 9) Moses used his 'works' to duel against the Pharoahs magi but Jesus says essentially that Miracles are not to be done as parlor tricks to satisfy the whims of unbelievers....

10) Please don't confuse my 'contradiction' statement to mean that I don't think it is divine or inspirational. It is a mystery for each person to unlock in their own way and devotion can be seen as a demonstration of how seriously a person wants to 'get closer to God' by truly understanding what is or is not there to see, either in the Bible or people....

11) Too many times people who put faith above all only parrot what they have been pointed to read/understand OR only search/see things that justify what they do....

I say that like the many faces of the Buddhist mountain koan or the various experiences of the Plato's blind men explaining an elephant, we have to explore and explore to really understand.

My favorite quote about this subject comes from "Shadowlands" about C.S.Lewis (Played by Anthony Hopkins): "I don't pray to change God, I pray to change myself...", I would say the same for really reading/knowing the text of the bible and understanding the transliteration history of it.

Paul

Thanks for the response, I added numbers to your post to address them. On the surface I agree these items seem like contradictions however I'll try and explain some of them for you.

If you look at the bible from one end to another as a whole not parts then these things fall into place and are not contradictory. I don't want to hijak the thread so once again if you disagree with me, find me in error etc. etc. if you want we can take this off line.

1) On the committing genocide issue/God being a God of peace and love. God is a holy and rightoues god who knows not sin, we are sinners (this is covered in Romans). God when he sent the Jews/children of Isreal out into the desert he told them to take the promise land by force, driving everyone out before them, basically killing every living thing. They didn't obey and within a short time what happened, they reverted back to idol worship (Bael), the OT repeatedly gives examples of God telling Isreal to do this and they instead did that, leading them astray. This was the reason for the extermenation, to remove the influenece of the other cultures.

2) Same point as above. Man had become very sinful so much it grieved God, therefore He sent judgement. And before anyone says well He shouldn't have done that, He had Noah build an ark that some scholars (I understand) say took well over 100 years to build. Now rain wasn't around then and no one but his family believed that anything was going to happen, life went on as usual till the day the floodgates opened and the rain came. God was patient He waited and still no one came. Again this is an example of how great man's sin was and his rejection of God.

3) God sent the angles to Lot in Soddom, possibly due to Lot being a decent man (he was an elder or some sort of judge/ruler/man of influence in the city), but I think it was to show Abraham that life was precious to Him (this is where Abraham's discourse with God comes in What about 50 good men, 40 good men, 30 good men all the way down to 5 I think) Out of a city/region (S&G) of 250,000 (aprox. figure I read somewhere) only five were saved. And actually when you look at what Lot did by offering up his virgin daughters to be raped by the men of the city instead of the angles. Then I have to wonder how rightoues he really was. In fact due to his wife wanting to turn around and look back and his daughters later on getting Lot drunk and sleeping with him, I really think it was God shiowing compassion for Abraham than Lot being rightoues.

4) David: when was he a terrorist? He was a king who screwed up, he was a king who turned away from God for a time and lost his kingdom to his son who raped his women/wives up on top of his palace to show the contempt he had for his father the king. Absoloam was so prideful that God judged him by having the source of his pride catch on or get caught on a tree branch so that one of David's generals could find him and kill him and put an end to the war. But David was so blinded by the love he had for his son he didn't want him harmed, which is why the general killed him because they knew David wouldn't.

5) Again the adultry issue is one of wipeing out the sinful influenece. The person who would end up stoning the women would be the man whom she sinned against. Think about the message that would send to everyone as well as the person throwing the first stone. Jesus brought forth the misunderstanding of this issue with the woman "let he who has no sin cast the first stone" He showed His/God's compassion by His next phrase "Go and sin no more". The same concept/punishment was given for a habitual unruly child as well. That man used this to allow for him to commit adultry but yet punish women is not God's fault.

6) The gospels are written from four different points of view for four different groups of people with four different emphasises. This does not mean they are false, or they did not happen. If you take an car accident and four different people saw it from different vantage points the stories might seem different but they all describe the same event. In this case it's the life of Jesus. He didn't meet the expetations of the Jewish people because they were looking for a different king, one that would set up the kingdom here on earth. Jesus came to offer a spiritual kingdom at this point in His life.

7) Again why Jesus has different names is because different people were describing Him, and in different times He was describing Himself. For instance John's gospel is meant to show that Jesus was the Son of God therefore he calls Him the Word "and the Word was God" Jhn.1:1 and John goes on to describe Jesus as diety.

8) It is rependant behaviour. It is faith in who Christ is (Peter and the early disciples, the thief on the cross), it is obeying God (Noah, Abraham, Moses) and loving God (David, Joseph) etc. etc. It's all one in the same fatih = action. It is knowing that we need the saviour and that we can't get there on our own, through good works, baptism, circumcison, keeping the law, etc. etc.

9) Now who called Moses out? God. Who didn't want to go? Moses. God told Moses to go and show pharoah these things. It wasn't a simple duel. God showed the pharoah these things to 1) demonstrate His power to an unbelieving country 2) demonstrate to the Isrealites that His power is real and He had come for His chosen people 3) This also helped Moses to have faith in God and in himself as the leader of the people in the days to come out in the wilderness. need I go on. These weren't "parlor tricks" The crossing of the Red Sea, the eating of mana, water from the rock, God residing in the tent and leading them out in the desert all lead up to them taking the promised land. And even then the people/Isrealites still grumbled and complained and were afraid of taking the land. And when they did take the land they still disobeyed and fell away.

10) Coming from my world view as a Christian I can't really agree here. But that's my opinon.

11) While I somewhat agree here on the parroting issue, I do agree that to often people only say something and don't really look into the true meaning behind what goes on. However while I have looked into and studied to a small degree other religions, Islam, Morrmonism, JW, 7th Day Adventists, Catholism, Freemasonary, different protesterant faiths, etc. etc. I have found that what I needed more study in was in my basic beliefs in the Christian faith. I've looked at these other religions through a Christian faith world view (so to speak, I was a Christian first so I know my view is biased on that belief system).

Anyway I don't want to hijak this thread. I offer up my apoligies if I've offened anyone. I was wanting to answer Paul's post here and I knew if I didn't do it tonight I wouldn't get back to it. It's late please forgive any misspellings as I've been typing here by the light of the monitor screen while my wife sleeps.

With respect
Mark

 

[marshallbd]

I've seen this sight before. These are the type of fundementalists that are only concerned about the fundementals of what other people are doing.

I will agree with them on one point. Martial arts often have some basis in eastern philosophies.

But they're wrong about everything else. Martial arts is not an outlet for worshiping eastern deities. What it teaches nowadays is parallel to the bible: Respect, personal growth, concern for your health and wellbeing....the list goes on. I really think that the christian God has a few more things to worry about other than people perfecting their side-kicks. If this is something of concern to Him, I would like to direct His attention to all of the people in the world who are killing others in His name.

What people are killing in the name of the "Christian God"? I see the people waging a "Jihad", but they are doing this in the name of Allah who is not a Christian God.

 

[Phoenix44]

[size=+1]I found this one especially demonic:[/size]
[size=+1][/size]
[size=+1][/size]
[size=+1]TAI-CHI – or ‘Great Ultimate Fist’ – develops inner power and [/size][size=+1]Relaxation [/size]