Aikido.. The reality?

[jayoliver00]

By the way, the numbers of years that someone trains a martial arts doesn't matter if they aren't training how to apply it. I could do a Jow Ga form for 50 years and be come very good at it, and still be horrible with actually using it. A good form or application demo does not mean you actually know how to use the techniques in a fight. It just means that you are good at doing a demo.

By the way, that's the exact problem with Aikido; b/c they don't fight other MA's in competition and it's uncertain if they even spar hard. That Roka guy was teaching & doing exactly what the Aikido system trained him to do.

And he did go out and trained his Aikido vs. other styles such as BJJ, MMA, etc. and he recorded & posted videos of himself losing most of it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are you saying that the Aikido guy who runs the Martial Arts Journey channel on Youtube only has "a few months" of digging into Aikido?

yes. That's what I'm saying. When you total up all of his efforts, then it's only going to be a few months.

He spent most of his life, training then teaching Aikido. Do you teach? I bet you have less than 1/4 of his active, paying student roster.

Not sure how me teaching and a class size has to do with his training. I knew a kung fu guy who got kicked out of a school because he focused too much on fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That Roka guy was teaching & doing exactly what the Aikido system trained him to do.

Teachers can train however they want to train. If they think the system is liking then they have enough knowledge to make improvements in it, regardless of what their teacher taught them.

My teacher taught me how to do sweeps in a low stance. I do do sweep in a high stance, my teacher didn't teach me that. I use combos and applications that weren't taught by my teacher or his teacher. But I learned it on my own using the knowledge I have and by digging deeper.

Everyone who fights or spars will eventually make the system "Their own." and have their own style for deploying it.

 

[jayoliver00]

yes. That's what I'm saying. When you total up all of his efforts, then it's only going to be a few months.

Man, are you purposefully lying or just making this up b/c you didn't even research. Hell, I didn't even research (other than have watched 4-5 of his vids, years ago); I just went to his channel and scanned the videos. Looks like he started his channel over 9 YEARS ago doing Aikido videos. Then 4 years ago was when he started questioning Aikido and started trying out & sparring other styles; leading to him shutting down his Aikido school. So he's been training, sparring and fighting in the last 4 years against BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, etc. trying t o apply his Aikido.....and you're saying it's only a "few months"???

And I don't even like listening to this guy. He has a weird, monotone voice; sounding like a White guy trying to sound like a Japanese guy from Japan, speaking English. It puts me to sleep.

Not sure how me teaching and a class size has to do with his training. I knew a kung fu guy who got kicked out of a school because he focused too much on fighting.

Because then you'd know how difficult it is to keep a running TMA school w/paying students in this climate of BJJ domination. Rarely would someone throwaway a TMA roster of 30-50 paying students like this. If he was in it just for the money, he would've kept his Aikido gym running to pay the bills while experimenting with his MMA endeavors; to then slowly meld the 2.

Doing it the way he did, by throwing away a school that was profitable, showed the conviction of a true Martial Artist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I asked the following question without respond.

What are the Aikido principles? Can someone provide this information?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Man, are you purposefully lying or just making this up b/c you didn't even research. Hell, I didn't even research (other than have watched 4-5 of his vids, years ago); I just went to his channel and scanned the videos. Looks like he started his channel over 9 YEARS ago doing Aikido videos. Then 4 years ago was when he started questioning Aikido and started trying out & sparring other styles; leading to him shutting down his Aikido school. So he's been training, sparring and fighting in the last 4 years against BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, etc. trying t o apply his Aikido.....and you're saying it's only a "few months"???

Yep and all through that he blamed the system and didn't even realize he wasn't doing a proper wrist lock. Oh then I think he came back and said that he was wrong about Aikido and that it's not the system and points out

Now his statement is "not every Aikdo technique is functional" "Not every Aikidoka can use the techniques." But all of that was after he bashed Aikido and other martial arts. I'm not surprised about this as it's normal for any system that mixes non-functional stuff among the functional stuff. Oh is final words were "He was wrong to some degree."

I've watched his Channel for a long time now. Not all the videos but enough to see the change.

And I don't even like listening to this guy. He has a weird, monotone voice; sounding like a White guy trying to sound like a Japanese guy from Japan, speaking English. It puts me to sleep.

Not how I would describe it, but if you watch some of his first videos you'll here him sound like that even more so. Also English isn't is first language. But that probably doesn't have anything to do with his tone. But he's not as bad as he used to be.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I asked the following question without respond.

What are the Aikido principles? Can someone provide this information?

Answer is some where on pages 1 - 20 lol but that all depends which Aikido Camp the person trains under. You have those who train application and those who train peace.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because then you'd know how difficult it is to keep a running TMA school w/paying students in this climate of BJJ domination.

Still don't know what this has to do with how someone else trains function in their martial arts. Just some background info on me.

I was the applications / fight instructor of a school that I helped run. I handled all of the marking an out reach for the school. None of that has anything to do with Roka training. Just like his Roster didn't affect my training nor my teaching.

Doing it the way he did, by throwing away a school that was profitable, showed the conviction of a true Martial Artist.

Not sure where you guys get this romantic idea about Martial Artists. Based on his video, his student's abandon him. Most likely they probably ran into other Aikido practioners and compared their training to how other Aikido practitioner's train and left. But Rokas said they abandoned him because they feared him. His words not mine.

 

[drop bear]

Because he did not dig deeper into his system to understand it. A few months. There's a big difference between trying to understanding a system and dismissing it as flawed. Things like "Make kung fu work," "Make Aikido Work," "Make Tai Chi," "Make TKD functional." are all things that people say when they just skim the top of what they train and fail to look at how they train and fail to understand what they were training. I've hear the same tune about other systems as well. I'll take him serious when he takes his martial arts serious.

At the moment he only cares about people viewing his videos. I get that. People gotta make money.

Then there's stuff like this. "Well damn Roka. This sounds like some of the same stuff you did to Aikido and when you called out Wing Chun. "

No.

Because you have to have something to dig deeper into.

We still have this huge black pit of nothing where the Aikido guys who have dug deep in to the concept live.

This is the main issue.

I could say leg locks don't work. But because there are heaps of people who make leg locks work. Then we can look back at my ability.

Now let's go the other way. Sai I suggest magical levitation doesn't work. Why is that not just because I have studied it hard enough.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I could say leg locks don't work. But because there are heaps of people who make leg locks work. Then we can look back at my ability.

When I started to learn how to fight using Jow Ga. There were no reference points or videos, or anyone else that I could look at and say Jow Ga works.

Even now there aren't heaps of people using Jow Ga techniques when sparring. The only ability I can look at is my own.

Now let's go the other way. Sai I suggest magical levitation doesn't work. Why is that not just because I have studied it hard enough.

Depends. Are you trying to be a magician, a religious man that does levitation, or a scientist"

Based on your answer I will tell you what you can do to get better results or I'll tell you that you are doing it wrong and I'll show you. Sort of like how Roka did the wrist lock wrong and the BJJ guy showed him the correct way.

Did Aikido have an incorrect wrist lock or was Roka just doing a wrist lock incorrectly?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Magical levitation

1. First define what "Magical Levitation" is as this will frame the context of purpose and if it works for that purpose.
2. Learn from people who actually train according to the purpose you are trying to achieve.

3. If there is no one available then dig deeper into what you know through trial and error and figure it out. In terms of Magic. New magic tricks are always being create where no one else has done them before. Sort of like how the creation of fighting systems and fighting methods were once new and never seen before. Someone figured it out.

Whatever you do there will be 3 outcomes.
1. The system is flawed
2 Your understanding of the system is flawed
3. The system is not designed for the goal that you seek

1. The system is flawed - would be a system that is designed for fighting but doesn't work well as a fighting system.

2. Your understanding of the system is flawed - You may not understand the purpose in which the system was created and it's intended use. Even if your teacher teaches you the wrong thing, your understanding will be flawed. It may also be flawed because you aren't using training methods that will allow you to use the system in a particular context.

3. The system is not designed for the goal that you seek. In cases like this a person is trying to use a system outside of the context of what it was created for. In this case, the system isn't flawed. It just wasn't made for the purpose that I'm trying to use it for.

 

[Hanzou]

yes. That's what I'm saying. When you total up all of his efforts, then it's only going to be a few months.

Wouldn't it be fair to say that since Rokas is a far more proficient martial artist now after a little under 2 years of BJJ/MMA that there's something significantly wrong with the methodology of Aikido?

 

[drop bear]

When I started to learn how to fight using Jow Ga. There were no reference points or videos, or anyone else that I could look at and say Jow Ga works.

Even now there aren't heaps of people using Jow Ga techniques when sparring. The only ability I can look at is my own.


Depends. Are you trying to be a magician, a religious man that does levitation, or a scientist"

Based on your answer I will tell you what you can do to get better results or I'll tell you that you are doing it wrong and I'll show you. Sort of like how Roka did the wrist lock wrong and the BJJ guy showed him the correct way.

Did Aikido have an incorrect wrist lock or was Roka just doing a wrist lock incorrectly?

Aikido mostly doesn't have the depth of talent to do wristlocks right. So the experts, if you could even find them are not that great in the scale of things.

So the argument that Rokus is good or not at practical Aikido is a celestial tea cup.

There is this idea that Aikido works at whatever level and that people are using it effectively. But we never really see that level.

For all we now. Rokus might be the best Aikido fighter for his weight class.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So the argument that Rokus is good or not at practical Aikido is a celestial tea cup.

I don't know about the celestial tea cup or Rokus training. But here's some insight. As you watch or listen you'll start to pick up a lot of red flags.

9:14 is what I've been saying all along. "finding answers by myself" His words not mine. You can also see that he did not identify his goal of "best martial artist in the world." He keeps thinking that it means being the "best student" You can hear him repeat it over and over.

This is what I was saying about Aikido. First identify what Aikido is. Aikido isn't just one thing. It is not the same for all Aikido Practioners. This is why I keep saying that I see 2 camps of Aikido. So while we say that it doesn't work in one camp, this may not be true for the other camp.

For all we now. Rokus might be the best Aikido fighter for his weight class.

No he's not.. He pretty much says so in his video as there is no mentioning any sparring in any of the schools he trained under. He comes from the Aikido Camp that doesn't believe in competition. Because of that there is no way to be the best fighter or worst fighter. When everyone wins a trophy then no one is better or worst as defined by "Wining a trophy."

He also made some TMA mistakes. Like never ask the teacher can he improve the techniques and never tell the teacher that you are going to train in another martial arts system. It's better to just do it without telling the teacher everything you do with your life.

There are a lot of aspects of my own training of Jow Ga that I didn't share with my teacher. I figured it was none of his business. It was my personal journey into Jow Ga. I know it shouldn't be like this, but if you understand TMA environments. They have more EGO than they claim. So it's just better to just keep some things to yourself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wouldn't it be fair to say that since Rokas is a far more proficient martial artist now after a little under 2 years of BJJ/MMA that there's something significantly wrong with the methodology of Aikido?

yeah I've been saying that all along both in directly through my comments about how important it is to spar, and directly that he wasn't training to fight using Aikido. He was training to be the best student in aikido which isn't the same thing as being good in fighting.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know about the celestial tea cup or Rokus training. But here's some insight. As you watch or listen you'll start to pick up a lot of red flags.

9:14 is what I've been saying all along. "finding answers by myself" His words not mine. You can also see that he did not identify his goal of "best martial artist in the world." He keeps thinking that it means being the "best student" You can hear him repeat it over and over.

This is what I was saying about Aikido. First identify what Aikido is. Aikido isn't just one thing. It is not the same for all Aikido Practioners. This is why I keep saying that I see 2 camps of Aikido. So while we say that it doesn't work in one camp, this may not be true for the other camp.



No he's not.. He pretty much says so in his video as there is no mentioning any sparring in any of the schools he trained under. He comes from the Aikido Camp that doesn't believe in competition. Because of that there is no way to be the best fighter or worst fighter. When everyone wins a trophy then no one is better or worst as defined by "Wining a trophy."

He also made some TMA mistakes. Like never ask the teacher can he improve the techniques and never tell the teacher that you are going to train in another martial arts system. It's better to just do it without telling the teacher everything you do with your life.

There are a lot of aspects of my own training of Jow Ga that I didn't share with my teacher. I figured it was none of his business. It was my personal journey into Jow Ga. I know it shouldn't be like this, but if you understand TMA environments. They have more EGO than they claim. So it's just better to just keep some things to yourself.

You are using martial arts logic to determine ability. Which seems to be all preconceptions and other unnecessary junk added to this question.

It doesn't matter what camp of Aikido we are discussing so long as they have a definable objective.

Then we see if he meets that objective better or worse than anyone else. In a manner that is able to be demonstrated in an experiment.

 

[RagingBull]

no touch Aikido

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the most absurd Aikido was from Tohei Koichi . If people believe this they will get badly hurt or killed outside on the streets.

My understanding of Kohei's Ki Society approach is that it isn't focused at all on fighting application. It is - as the group name implies - about developing ki.

 

[RagingBull]

My understanding of Kohei's Ki Society approach is that it isn't focused at all on fighting application. It is - as the group name implies - about developing ki.

well if that is the case then let them do it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There's a similar principle in Bjj and Judo where the movement and motion of an exercise during randori can be interpreted into multiple types of actual attacks. In Bjj a major example of this would be positional dominance, where even though there isn't any striking, the basic principle is still sound, so you can easily apply the principles you learned in randori practice to a real situation.

From what I'm seeing in Aikido randori, the general forward movement can be interpreted as a punch, a charge, a kick, a tackle attempt, etc. Thus during randori you can do this forward charging attack and practice the principle, and then use this principle in a self defense situation. However, the foundation of this principle appears to be flawed, because it doesn't take into account the boxing style striking that is employed by modern martial arts, and instead relies on the style of striking commonly found in traditional Japanese and Chinese martial arts.



And even that is a dubious metric, because I'm not seeing any ancient Aikido wizards effortlessly tossing people around either.

I think most Aikido instructors would argue it ignores the striking of pretty much all styles. While some of the early practitioners were competent against other styles (and likely some current ones are, too), I've only ever heard Aikido argued as being designed for an untrained attacker. I think the style is (like many TMA, as I understand them) designed with that idea.