Aikido.. The reality?

[RagingBull]

Are there many schools under that branch?

yes he has schools in the USA. remember Saito Sensei saw all the changes from pre WW2 upwards. The system was then Aiki Budo.

 

[RagingBull]

 

[RagingBull]

 

[drop bear]

I really like this video because it is a very common result of people trying to secure an arm (and not being super great at it.)

And the answer to " But we train bouncers and police"

 

[O'Malley]

As I understand it, Yoshinkan is closer to the Daitor-ryu roots.

So are Tomiki and Iwama. Morihei Ueshiba kept doing Daito-ryu all his life, so anyone who'd studied primarily with him would be doing DR. Aikido was just a rebranding because he didn't care much about names. And, in a sense, Ki Society is much closer to DR than one may think, it might be one of the closest.

"When I move it becomes Aiki. The goal (of our techniques) is the creation of the Aiki Body. It’s not individual techniques. The body itself becomes Aiki." - Yukiyoshi Sagawa, January 12th, 1975. Sagawa was Morihei Ueshiba's peer under Takeda.

Thanks for sharing this video. I'm going to check out that camp since they are punching people. I'm interested in understanding their approach to Aikido

I've done almost all my aikido training in that lineage, and with good references (there are many top-level instructors in Italy, and more generally in Europe).

The Iwama approach is done with physical resistance (for example, when uke grabs your wrist/shoulder, he does so with all his strength and with the intent of stopping you in your tracks) but no tactical resistance (= no sparring, we stay in the framework of the kata). There is also an emphasis on conditioning with kokyu ho (breath power exercises) and ken (sword) and jo (staff) exercises. Talented people may also improve tactics/reflexes with the weapon work but most do rote repetition. Iwama people are typically able to project a lot of power and their technique is mechanically sound (like other styles that work with resistance such as Yoshinkan or Tomiki). However, the randori model is similar to other styles (except Tomiki), with the same drawbacks.

As for "punching people", meh. As a general rule, we don't train striking. The opportunities for strikes during techniques and entries are shown, and they double as ways to ensure proper distancing.

Some exercises are interesting to explore. For example, I've been thinking about how this one might teach you power projection for a jab:

And this one for a karate-like cross-step-and-punch (oi zuki?):

But these are just personal reflections.

 

[O'Malley]

Edited to reply to @gpseymour 's comment.

 

[RagingBull]

remember i had a couple of VHS videos from this guy. His UKI took some serious pain in the videos...LOL

 

[RagingBull]

I had a good collection of films given to me. Even from my Aikido sensei who filmed it himself in Iwama. He died but before it gave me his films. He aslo asked if i wanted to go to Iwama with him and two others. He never made it as he died of Liver problems. liked his drink too much. such is life sadly.
My wife threw out all my films without telling me. i was not pleased to say the least. women

 

[JowGaWolf]

I really like this video because it is a very common result of people trying to secure an arm (and not being super great at it.)

And the answer to " But we train bouncers and police"

I'm assuming that this is in the U.S by the comment made.
1. The U.S. is the worst when applying wrist locks.

2. Standing wrist locks and arm locks should be done without notice which leads to #3. This is no different than BJJ. When the person realizes that they are about to be put into a lock they start resisting and now you have to work harder to do this. BJJ has the advantage of taking the legs away from the equation

3. Police often try to apply the technique's slowly which give the person a chance to fight against it. Things change when this happens. My assumption is that police only know a couple of locks. So if they are trying to put his arms behind the back and get too much resistance then they may not know how to flow into another technique. Similar to BJJ. When too much resistance is in one direction they simply flow into a different lock.

4. Training for wrist locks in the police force is not long enough, not even close. Think of how long it takes for you learn what you know. How many hours does it take to get good at it.? They get far less than that.

Listen to this video. Pay attention to what is said about the results. When training was was longer. Ignore all of the Selling hype.

 

[RagingBull]

I'm assuming that this is in the U.S by the comment made.
1. The U.S. is the worst when applying wrist locks.

2. Standing wrist locks and arm locks should be done without notice which leads to #3. This is no different than BJJ. When the person realizes that they are about to be put into a lock they start resisting and now you have to work harder to do this. BJJ has the advantage of taking the legs away from the equation

3. Police often try to apply the technique's slowly which give the person a chance to fight against it. Things change when this happens. My assumption is that police only know a couple of locks. So if they are trying to put his arms behind the back and get too much resistance then they may not know how to flow into another technique. Similar to BJJ. When too much resistance is in one direction they simply flow into a different lock.

4. Training for wrist locks in the police force is not long enough, not even close. Think of how long it takes for you learn what you know. How many hours does it take to get good at it.? They get far less than that.

Listen to this video. Pay attention to what is said about the results. When training was was longer. Ignore all of the Selling hype.

I think a problem is the Police in the US are even more under scrutiny now. Can you imagine if they did a fast wrist lock openly & the suspect screamed. Remember there is always a person filming.
Rather than going for a wrist i would rather go for an arm bar or shoulder. wrist locks are very hard to do on a drugged up or drunk person who feels it later. a whole arm or shoulder lock immobilizes them. Even some Judo body hold downs are better.
Remember talking reality here not Dojo fantasy.

 

[RagingBull]

it´s like when i was in the British Army they tought us "Aikido" but when we went on a Tour of N Ireland we were tought strikes & locks with batons more escrima. hitting wrist even sticking it between the legs to make the guy move fast. reality is not like in a dojo.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How many hours do you thing it takes to effectively pull thi

I think a problem is the Police in the US are even more under scrutiny now. Can you imagine if they did a fast wrist lock openly & the suspect screamed.

Yep, I can imagine but that's the only I know how to apply those. If they don't want that then, they definitely don't want train standing wrist locks. Go with BJJ or learn how to lock larger joints. I was never taught that wrist locks were for restraining so for me it's all about destroying that joint. The restraint comes after the join has been destroyed. I personally wouldn't try to use a wrist lock unless I was ok with destroying that joint. If they clinch their fist then the wrist lock is lost. I don't care what type of wrist lock a person is doing. A clinch fist will void any attempt to lock the wrist, hence is the reason it can't be slowly done. It's gotta be in the works before the person realizes what's going on.

Rather than going for a wrist i would rather go for an arm bar or shoulder.

Totally agree with you. A larger joint lock would world. Most people who resist often do so in a way that actually leads them into those type of locks. I rather use something where resisting causes that person to head in the right direction that's needed for the lock.

wrist locks are very hard to do on a drugged up or drunk person who feels it later.

Wrist locks are hard to do period. Anyone that is actually good in applying them has have years of training. There are actual grip strength exercises that are needed in order to pull off wrist locks. Add how long it takes to develop muscle strength + how long it takes to get the technique down. We could literally be talking years of consistent training

 

[RagingBull]

yeah the locks we used with a baton worked & fast. The surface area of a baton against any part of your arm inflicts pain. I know this sounds rather nasty given the recent events in the US but put it over the throat hands crossed behind the the head holding the baton the guy will move with you & fast. in some situations you have to do it fast...& yes aggressive. otherwise we would have been cought by a violent mob, dragged away & tortured, shot. no room for any sentiments here.

 

[O'Malley]

Here's a better example of atemi used upon entry:

Also, the throw features "hidden" elbow and knee strikes. The elbow strike can be done to the ribs of your partner when you enter under his arm. The knee strike can either be done when you bring your partner down, or when you advance your foot to project him. The second way is taught so that you get the right feeling and footwork for the throw.

I like this sequence because it shows the multi-faced study of atemi in Iwama aikido (as entry, striking opportunities during the technique or teaching device).

 

[jayoliver00]

I've watched his Channel for a long time now. Not all the videos but enough to see the change.

OK, based on this, I will take your word for it and concede. Because I can't stand listening to that Roka guy's voice and his videos are way too long & boring; so I can't bring myself to watching more of his videos just to debate you.

And I apologize for calling you a liar.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

remember i had a couple of VHS videos from this guy. His UKI took some serious pain in the videos...LOL

I have some others of his videos. I think that uke is his younger brother.

 

[JowGaWolf]

remember i had a couple of VHS videos from this guy. His UKI took some serious pain in the videos...LOL

That is the first time I've seen someone yell in pain in Aikido. I guess he got the technique right. lol.

 

[Cynik75]

Wrestling and aikido by Rokas:

 

[O'Malley]

This only confirms my thoughts about Rokas. Although he's researching this with enthusiasm, his aikido was crap to begin with so he's starting with wrong assumptions.

 

[angelariz]

From my very limited experience visiting an aikido school in NYC many years ago, I found it to be a great way to train relaxation, rolling, falling, and being mindful of relaxing while being thrown.
However, in my experience, i found all of those things in aikiJu Jutsu and switched over to a school that worked on a hybrid of Aiki Jujitsu, Shotokan, bujutsu type class.