Aikido.. The reality?

[jayoliver00]

Mhmm, thats a stretch by any imagination. Now you dont like teaching martial arts to kids? Or I suppose you will now argue that those BJJ classes for 8 year olds are churning out armies of lethal child soldiers and how a hundred pound woman is going to ground and pound a two hundred pound attacker. K bro, cool story...

You're making gross exaggerations in poor attempts at making strawman arguments. (1) These "8 year olds" aren't advertised as killers vs. adults or even teens. Real life is not a movie. When 8 year olds have problems, it's usually with other 8 year olds or somewhat older. (2) You obviously never been in a real fighting gym as there are plenty of 100 lb women that can beat up 200 lb men; especially when the average 200 lb man is pretty fat, sloppy and can't fighting. I have a 13 year old girl that's about 90 lbs that can knockout adults and her grappling is much better; at Pan Ams medalist level. The 100 lb boys at 12-14 are even more lethal.

 

[RagingBull]

There's another possibility here. I think some folks like the idea of being able to fight, but don't like the idea of actual fighting. They like the trappings of being able to say to folks, "I'm a fighter, and I train in a very serious martial art. I don't compete, and I don't pussyfoot around with ritualized drills and monkey dancing. I am a fighter. I train to defend against multiple attackers... with weapons." They like all of that. But when it comes to actual fighting, they're like, "I'm good." So, when it comes to a situation where they may actually need to use those serious fighting skills, they don't have them.

To get back to the analogy of a swimmer. It's like a person who likes the idea of swimming, and goes through all the motions. But they really can't swim... and on some level whether consciously or subconsciously, they know it. And so when they see a kid drowning, they call the cops and watch the kid die, and tell themselves that it was the smart choice to make.

Truly, the one thing about this entire thread that really irritates me is the tacit endorsement of cowardice. The rest is same old, same old, but this codification of cowardice is a new wrinkle.

I will just say this i have been in bars where drunken people have Glassed others. seen it often. you do not need any fancy "KI" or training. Bang ..straight in the face or under the chin. I was in the British Army at the time. I was involved in a few punch ups & did Army Boxing. All this Aikido training is nice i enjoyed it rolling on the mats but it´s not going to help you in a bar brawl. it happens too fast. Wing Tsun, boxing will help. fast reactions & a boxer will immediatly protect his vital organs & face. fast reactions from sparring. real sparring. I am talking from my experiences here. not a fantasy Dojo world. This might upset some dreamers on here but i am talking reality here.

 

[jayoliver00]

Yeah, I really wish the MT guy just started blasting that idiot. Him catching the dude's legs because he was going slow was dirty.

He also starts giving MT tips on how to counter the leg catch. But now I realize the reason for the sock-hop bottoms, to hide the awkwardness.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’m not debating whether it’s smart or not. I’m just saying I think it’s something not really style-dependent.

It's not style dependant it's based on the mentality. So you take the mentality that most Aikido practitioners have in terms of Aikido and the purpose of it. Then you take that shared mentality about Aikido to get a good idea of what people in that system is most likely to do.

Similar to how people in a gang have the same mentality and make similar decisions and get into similar trouble.

Think of how Kung Fu Wang and I think similar about somethings because of how we see CMA

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

a boxer will immediatly protect his vital organs & face.

The moment that you see a punch coming toward your face, most people may think just to protect their heads. I prefer to shot down the incoming missile.

What else MA training can be more important than this?

 

[RagingBull]

The moment that you see a punch coming toward your face, most people may think just to protect their heads. I prefer to shot down the incoming missile.

What else MA training can be more important than this?

some people are either too slow to see it coming or just do not react.
The other situation is most people if going to stab you or smash a glass in your face will do it when you are off guard. I think a lot of self defence is reading into a situation very quickly ...if you can. If not you need to then react to stop more damage being done.
Common sense is another thing. If you have heard a bar is bad or an area avoid it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's not style dependant it's based on the mentality. So you take the mentality that most Aikido practitioners have in terms of Aikido and the purpose of it. Then you take that shared mentality about Aikido to get a good idea of what people in that system is most likely to do.

When an Aikido guy sees a punch coming toward his face, he will never use his arm to hurt his opponent's punching arm. The style limitation will restrict the Aikido system to have anti-missile system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well that's really the fundamental point; It is a rather large question mark that a weak person can utilize Aikido effectively against a larger/stronger person. Thus advertising that your art can in fact perform that feat is rather insidious.

And yes, the muscle= bad martial arts is a common fantasy in martial arts. Even Bjj had that nonsense swirling around for a time (though they have evidence to actually back it up to some degree).

I suspect the “strength is bad” started with the difficulty many strong (untrained) people have in learning not to depend upon their strength. That and the lack of mobility common among bodybuilders.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sounds like he's making a followup point about Aikido; 1st, they can't fight & 2nd, they often falsely advertise that their system was designed specifically for such multiple opponent situations despite rarely being able to really fight. His 2nd point was due to the Akidos not accepting his 1st point.

Just because a person trains Aikido doesn't mean he can't fight. It just means he takes Aikido. Some people don't take Aikido to learn to fight. Because he may already know how to fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When an Aikido guy sees a punch coming toward his face, he will never use his arm to hurt his opponent's punching arm. The style limitation will restrict the Aikido system to have anti-missile system.

Never?

 

[JowGaWolf]

They like all of that. But when it comes to actual fighting, they're like, "I'm good." So, when it comes to a situation where they may actually need to use those serious fighting skills, they don't have them

Of course people talk junk and talk big all the time and lack the skills to make it happen. Appear to be dangerous in hopes others will think twice about trying to harm you.

To get back to the analogy of a swimmer. It's like a person who likes the idea of swimming, and goes through all the motions. But they really can't swim... and on some level whether consciously or subconsciously, they know it. And so when they see a kid drowning, they call the cops and watch the kid die, and tell themselves that it was the smart choice to make.

If they can't swim then it is a smart decision. Let's reverse the role. You are 400 yards away from the shore drawing. Your 12 year old child is on the shore because he or she can't swim. Would you want your child to drown trying to swim out to you?

Or would you rather have your child to call the police and yell for help‽ So is you child a jerk or scum for not drowning in an effort to save you‽

 

[Hanzou]

I suspect the “strength is bad” started with the difficulty many strong (untrained) people have in learning not to depend upon their strength. That and the lack of mobility common among bodybuilders.

As a mid-large person myself, I often had to make sure my technique was sound, because I knew that if I tapped out a smaller person, I might be doing it because of strength instead of technique.

I almost envied smaller/weaker guys in Bjj because when they tapped someone out, they actually did it with technique almost every time.

 

[RagingBull]

I suspect the “strength is bad” started with the difficulty many strong (untrained) people have in learning not to depend upon their strength. That and the lack of mobility common among bodybuilders.

people used to say weight training was bad for boxers too..they were wrong. If you think some kind of KI will protect you from a Mr Mike tyson in his prime then you are dreaming. of course not all people are like him in his prime but.. the lack of mobility is bull too. look up Tom plat or a few other bodybuilders who were martial artists.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

people used to say weight training was bad for boxers too..they were wrong. If you think some kind of KI will protect you from a Mr Mike tyson in his prime then you are dreaming. of course not all people are like him in his prime but.. the lack of mobility is bull too. look up Tom plat or a few other bodybuilders who were martial artists.

You seem to be trying to disagree with something you think I’ve said.

 

[RagingBull]

You seem to be trying to disagree with something you think I’ve said.

i understand you. weight training for a martial artist must not be like a bodybuilder perfecting "weak bodyparts" but look at Neil adams my boyhood hero in judo. He was strong and fast.

 

[RagingBull]

Neil Adams

 

[drop bear]

Just because a person trains Aikido doesn't mean he can't fight. It just means he takes Aikido. Some people don't take Aikido to learn to fight. Because he may already know how to fight.

Yeah. Not a great place to argue from when discussing a skill though.

 

[drop bear]

Of course people talk junk and talk big all the time and lack the skills to make it happen. Appear to be dangerous in hopes others will think twice about trying to harm you.


If they can't swim then it is a smart decision. Let's reverse the role. You are 400 yards away from the shore drawing. Your 12 year old child is on the shore because he or she can't swim. Would you want your child to drown trying to swim out to you?

Or would you rather have your child to call the police and yell for help‽ So is you child a jersey or scum for not drowning in an effort to save you‽

But we are not necessarily putting the smart decision above the right decision. And we are not condemning kids who can't swim or Aikidoka's who can't fight for not jumping in.

We are suggesting condemning a guy for jumping in as a bit duchebaggy.

That is the difference.

Eg. Kid saves his sister from dog attack. Gets really badly hurt doing it.

After Heroic Boy is Injured Saving Little Sis from Dog Attack, He Wins Praise–And Surprises–From Avengers (Watch)

Days after saving his little sister, Bridger Walker is welcomed into superhero ranks with praise and surprises from his favorite celebrities.

www.goodnewsnetwork.org

I don't think the shouldn't do that crowd would get much traction.

 

[Steve]

Of course people talk junk and talk big all the time and lack the skills to make it happen. Appear to be dangerous in hopes others will think twice about trying to harm you.


If they can't swim then it is a smart decision. Let's reverse the role. You are 400 yards away from the shore drawing. Your 12 year old child is on the shore because he or she can't swim. Would you want your child to drown trying to swim out to you?

Or would you rather have your child to call the police and yell for help‽ So is you child a jersey or scum for not drowning in an effort to save you‽

Dude. That's not reversing the role. It's a text book straw man, with a disingenuous appeal to emotion thrown in at the end.

To actually reverse the roles, let's say I'm drowning. If I'm drowning and there is a person who is a competent swimmer, who chooses not to help because he is a coward, I'm going to be pissed. Dead... but also very angry, the last thing I see being him on his cell phone calling 911 and watching me die.

What you're saying is that the guy on the shore isn't just any guy. He's a lifeguard. But not just any lifeguard. This lifeguard may very well not be able to swim, if he gets certified by a school that focuses on things other than swimming ability (as if such a certification would be just fine). And further, that this person is actually smart to avoid the water, because even though he presents himself to the public as a very good swimmer who is lifeguard certified, he knows he cannot swim and would just end up drowning himself. Your position is, to your credit, very consistent. It's just fundamentally broken.

I suspect the “strength is bad” started with the difficulty many strong (untrained) people have in learning not to depend upon their strength. That and the lack of mobility common among bodybuilders.

I am positive I've heard some wing chun guys suggest that strength is actually bad for wing chun... and that it makes their wing chun less effective.

 

[jayoliver00]

Just because a person trains Aikido doesn't mean he can't fight. It just means he takes Aikido. Some people don't take Aikido to learn to fight. Because he may already know how to fight.

Obviously if you nitpick over every variable, then you will find something. We are obviously talking about the general concensus of Aikidos being able to fight, using their Aikido training.

And knowing how to fight is pretty vague. Beating up some random guy in the street is pretty easy as most are fat & untrained. If someone trains in an MA for 3 years, they should be able to beat up the average joe. A good test of not just your skills & aptitude but also their style of MA as well as their MA school/Instructor, is to let someone untrained go full power at your head/body/legs with gloves/shinguards on while you just touch/tap back. Would the average Akido allow this?