Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

I find it hard to believe you are getting lost here and no, you are not. Nor have you been discussing Aikido. You have been loudly screeching about some strip mall Aikido school you have beef with over a civil advertising dispute and then making strawman arguments you want people to play with you in, then getting upset when we point out what you are doing.

So discussing multiple Aikido schools falsely advertising that they teach effective self defense that can help you overcome multiple and larger/stronger attackers isn't discussing Aikido?

Here's another one;

Aikido emphasizes more than fighting skill. Rather it aims to resolve conflict through dissipating attack by controlling the aggressor's energy. The emphasis is on method versus strength making Aikido particularly effective for women, children and the elderly.

Aikido of Dallas - About Aikido

 

[Shatteredzen]

So discussing multiple Aikido schools falsely advertising that they teach effective self defense that can help you overcome multiple and larger/stronger attackers isn't discussing Aikido?

Here's another one;

Aikido of Dallas - About Aikido

Lol, read that again, its not claiming anything really, other than it works for people like kids, the elderly, women, etc and that its about more than fighting, looks fine to me.

The problem here is you don't understand even the basic premise of Aikido, you should go watch the video I linked with Chris Hein, it does a great job of framing what Aikido is.

 

[Hanzou]

Lol, read that again, its not claiming anything really, other than it works for people like kids, the elderly, women, etc and that its about more than fighting, looks fine to me.

The problem here is you don't understand even the basic premise of Aikido, you should go watch the video I linked with Chris Hein, it does a great job of framing what Aikido is.

It’s claiming rather openly that it is an effective form of fighting that emphasizes method over strength, thus weaker individuals (women, children (LOL) and the elderly) can utilize its techniques to defend themselves against larger and stronger assailants.

A claim that is completely and utterly false.

As for Hein, I’d rather not waste time listening to someone making excuses for Aikido’s effectiveness. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Shatteredzen]

It’s claiming rather openly that it is an effective form of fighting that emphasizes method over strength, thus weaker individuals (women, children (LOL) and the elderly) can utilize its techniques to defend themselves against larger and stronger assailants.

A claim that is completely and utterly false.

As for Hein, I’d rather not waste time listening to someone making excuses for Aikido’s effectiveness. Thanks, but no thanks.

Mhmm, thats a stretch by any imagination. Now you dont like teaching martial arts to kids? Or I suppose you will now argue that those BJJ classes for 8 year olds are churning out armies of lethal child soldiers and how a hundred pound woman is going to ground and pound a two hundred pound attacker. K bro, cool story...

 

[Shatteredzen]

As for Hein, I’d rather not waste time listening to someone making excuses for Aikido’s effectiveness. Thanks, but no thanks.

Yes, you would rather waste your time in a 90 page internet thread ranting about strip mall dojo advertising practices. My bad, I forgot how important your time is...

 

[drop bear]

Double post

 

[drop bear]

But I have bundy in a can. No comment on the rest of those links I see.

Yeah? Sort of?

It seems more of a dedicated marketing strategy than an effort to actually create a viable method to be honest. I mean atemi is Aikido so he belted the guy aikido works?

That's grasping to be honest.

You have two guys who are Mabye ok enough at what they do to handle some random guys. And look, that's cool.

But they are your two best guys. These are literally your flagships. Doing what I could find ten guys doing locally.

And some random street fight vids of mabye Aikido or Mabye not. from guys we know nothing about.

And it is presented as like hey look at me look how effective we are.

And it all comes across as kind of cute.

And look if that is the bar you want to set for your entire system. Then that is cool I guess.

But there are thousands of guys literally doing that every day in other systems and it isn't that big a deal.

So I am not really sure it has the wow factor you are expecting it to.

 

[Buka]

1) Full contact sparring is almost the same as doing it live but with less consequences. Grabbing a training blade versus a real one doesn't change except in the potential risk posed by failure.

2) My apologies for the impoliteness. If you are having this much fun already, I doubt you would want to push a black and white around with me. I'm even more fun in person and would probably make you cranky. Maybe you would enjoy the energy though like how old dogs live longer when they get around a puppy. After your last response I can guarantee we would spend the entire rest of the shift arguing knife disarms

Nah, we’d get along just fine on the job as well as in the dojo.

I don’t think we’d be arguing disarms, we’d probably be having a hell of a lot of fun discussing them though.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah? Sort of?

It seems more of a dedicated marketing strategy than an effort to actually create a viable method to be honest. I mean atemi is Aikido so he belted the guy aikido works?

That's grasping to be honest.

You have two guys who are Mabye ok enough at what they do to handle some random guys. And look, that's cool.

But they are your two best guys. These are literally your flagships. Doing what I could find ten guys doing locally.

And some random street fight vids of mabye Aikido or Mabye not. from guys we know nothing about.

And it is presented as like hey look at me look how effective we are.

And it all comes across as kind of cute.

And look if that is the bar you want to set for your entire system. Then that is cool I guess.

But there are thousands of guys literally doing that every day in other systems and it isn't that big a deal.

So I am not really sure it has the wow factor you are expecting it to.

No one is trying to sell you on Aikido or advertise it as some kind of super competitive fighting system, it isn't that. Aikido is its own thing, its not my entire system and it really shouldn't be anyone else's if they want to be a well rounded fighter. Aikido can add things to other martial arts and in my opinion it has a lot of value. That's not the same as trying to flex or one up anyone, Aikido isn't that at all. Its simply another set of options instead of having to beat the holy heck out of someone, its another way of dealing with and interacting with conflict.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Nah, we’d get along just fine on the job as well as in the dojo.

I don’t think we’d be arguing disarms, we’d probably be having a hell of a lot of fun discussing them though.

I have a feeling we would get along fine also

 

[Cynik75]

1) Full contact sparring is almost the same as doing it live but with less consequences. Grabbing a training blade versus a real one doesn't change except in the potential risk posed by failure.

love me, man. The awareness of consequences changers everything. Fighting a knife wielder on the street I will do only small part of techniques, only in perfect moment, with 100% speed and power. During sparring I can do whatever I think about whenever I want. It changes the way of fight very very very much.
Even in competition fight people behave other way than in gym sparrings.

BTW. I was cut by the blade 2 times in my live, and I beat two knife armed opponents with bats (not the same situations). Both time I was cut - razor to my right cheek (7 stiches), second one the attempt to stab me, I luckily bounced the knife with left hand (4 stiches) - I was empty handed.

 

[drop bear]

No one is trying to sell you on Aikido or advertise it as some kind of super competitive fighting system, it isn't that. Aikido is its own thing, its not my entire system and it really shouldn't be anyone else's if they want to be a well rounded fighter. Aikido can add things to other martial arts and in my opinion it has a lot of value. That's not the same as trying to flex or one up anyone, Aikido isn't that at all. Its simply another set of options instead of having to beat the holy heck out of someone, its another way of dealing with and interacting with conflict.

I think when someone is creating videos of street fights to find a coincidental Aikido move to have their Ahah moment. They really are trying to sell an image.

Rather than say just training realistically with other systems like everyone else does.

I am sorry but those videos are just super cringy.

 

[Attitude]

I went spent a few hours on you tube trying to find old sparring videos of Aikido. This was done with my understanding that Fighting is Abrasive. Which basically means that it's rough and it that it doesn't flow smooth like what we often see in Aikido or Tai Chi. When these martial arts are practice they often look as if they are flowing and easy. I think this training concept is similar to Tai Chi /Tajiquan. The free flowing and easy look seems to be how you learn to relax and to flow. It is not fighting, and it's not how the fighting is supposed to look. I also think this is where people screw up with the systems and get it wrong.

So since I don't actually know anything about Aikido, I decided to use my very limited Tajiquan knowledge to make assumption and guesses, and to find some old footage of Aikido Sparring.

Here's the first first one. I found. To me this looks like Aikido concepts applied and it looks abrasive. It doesn't flow the same way that we see it in a demo. I personally think the "Flow" part is something that you have to experienced. I know that's the case with Muay thai. To the outside it may look like a simple clinch but to the person in the clinch it could feel like your balance is easily being robbed from you before the throw occurs.
This is what I expect to see in a fight on the street (the struggle)

In contrast. We can see that he's trying "flow" similar to what they do in training and demos (not sparring). You can also see that he's uncomfortable with punches coming towards him. It's clear that he doesn't quite know how to handle them. From a function perspective it would make sense that Aikido would have some kind of striking or understanding of "how to enter into grappling"

Here's another example. Not the best, but he's got one arm. What you do see here is punching as a way to enter into grappling. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it. Sanda does it. So I'm just following some of the things we already know.

2nd Video Same guy,



Thoughts?

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[Hanzou]

Mhmm, thats a stretch by any imagination. Now you dont like teaching martial arts to kids?Or I suppose you will now argue that those BJJ classes for 8 year olds are churning out armies of lethal child soldiers and how a hundred pound woman is going to ground and pound a two hundred pound attacker. K bro, cool story...

Women choking out men twice their size isn’t unheard of in Bjj.

I’m not really aware of any female Aikidoka being able to overcome men twice their size with Aikido.

That’s the point.

As for Hein. Yes I would rather post in a forum then listen to a guy attempt to explain that Aikido isn’t what it appears to be, thus martial standards can’t be applied to it.

 

[drop bear]

No one is trying to sell you on Aikido or advertise it as some kind of super competitive fighting system, it isn't that. Aikido is its own thing, its not my entire system and it really shouldn't be anyone else's if they want to be a well rounded fighter. Aikido can add things to other martial arts and in my opinion it has a lot of value. That's not the same as trying to flex or one up anyone, Aikido isn't that at all. Its simply another set of options instead of having to beat the holy heck out of someone, its another way of dealing with and interacting with conflict.

Out of your top guys. Two of them are randoms.

I wonder if fluoro shirt cop dude does seminars? Cos he is one of an elite few that make Aikido functional.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To sum up my take on some of this thread:

Aikido is a wonderful art with many benefits and principles of movement, some of which can aid in actual SD, though many techniques are difficult to execute against resisting opponents, and only then by expert practitioners.

Unarmed defense against a casual or impaired knife wielder is very possible given the defender has some training. Still, there is some risk of getting cut.

Anecdotes of store clerks or others disarming a knife or gun wielder are not the rule, but lucky exceptions against an uncommitted attacker. A small wild pig can turn away a jaguar if the big cat isn't too hungry or without hungry young.

Unarmed defense against an experienced, committed, knife wielder is crazy, unless the defender is well trained and willing to accept the probability of getting cut. There is a risk of lethality or severe injury so engagement should be a last resort.

Low grappling stances are good for grappling, higher upright stances are good for striking/kicking. Sometimes one doesn't know the exact nature of the threat so any combat stance taken must be balanced (both for usage and weight distribution) to allow for fast reaction, distance adjustment, angle changes, launching and receiving strong attacks.

MMA with BJJ is very effective in combat due to the broad skill set, hard contact training and PT done by the serious practitioner. Boxing is very good, too, but with a more narrow skill set as technique is quite constrained by rules.

Sport karate develops many combat skills, but has some rule constraints making it limited in grappling/close-in situations. Pre/non-sport karate has no rules and a different skill set, including close-in fighting.

All MA have something to offer. Not all people want, or are able, to be professional level fighters, take numerous hits, or commit to many hours/wk training and conditioning, but still desire to have some combat oriented physical activity. People are not just apples and oranges, but a whole fruit salad including mangos, bananas, kiwi, pears, and so on.

I am bored with the constant comparisons and evaluations of one art with another. Let's just agree that they all have benefits for each person according to their needs, wants and abilities.

I get tired of the System A is better than System B conversation when no one is asking that question. I also get tired of System A doesn't do what System B does when someone wants to know what system A does.

 

[Steve]

No one is trying to sell you on Aikido or advertise it as some kind of super competitive fighting system, it isn't that. Aikido is its own thing, its not my entire system and it really shouldn't be anyone else's if they want to be a well rounded fighter. Aikido can add things to other martial arts and in my opinion it has a lot of value. That's not the same as trying to flex or one up anyone, Aikido isn't that at all. Its simply another set of options instead of having to beat the holy heck out of someone, its another way of dealing with and interacting with conflict.

So after over 90 pages, I think we can all agree that if martial arts that teach you to fight are like food, Aikido is like cilantro. It provides no real nutrition, but can make an already good dish taste a little better.

Now that we've solved Aikido, let's do ninjutsu.

 

[Hanzou]

I get tired of the System A is better than System B conversation when no one is asking that question. I also get tired of System A doesn't do what System B does when someone wants to know what system A does.

The question of the efficacy of Aikido was asked in your OP. Thus, you asked for Aikido to be compared to other martial arts systems right off the bat.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The question of the efficacy of Aikido was asked in your OP.

I never questioned the efficacy of Akidio. That's not even my style. I try to understand martial arts from what it teaches vs what I think is best. Efficacy is how you think about things. Me training Jow Ga is my statement on what I think is best for me. Not once have I made a statement that another system should do what Jow Ga does. Any comparison that I make is for the purpose of trying to understand a system that I don't train.

 

[Hanzou]

I never questioned the efficacy of Akidio. That's not even my style. I try to understand martial arts from what it teaches vs what I think is best. Efficacy is how you think about things.

Wrong.

Efficacy-

noun, plural ef·fi·ca·cies.​

capacity for producing a desired result or effect; effectiveness

Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years!

www.dictionary.com

Your original post was littered with how Aikidoka intended to do things one way, yet ended up getting varied results. You even posted a video of Rokas getting embarrassed in a sparring match with a MMA fighter. You then questioned Rokas' knowledge of a martial art he had studied for 15 years because he wasn't looking very good against various fighters. Those are questions of efficacy, because it shows that Aikidoka are attempting to get a desired result, but for whatever reason are falling short of that goal. Further, since we were talking about Rokas, who himself often compares Aikido to other martial arts, a system comparison was unavoidable. Aikido's efficacy is questioned, so it's a no-brainer that it would be compared to martial arts whose efficacy is not questioned and asked what the latter is doing correct and what Aikido is not doing correctly.

Me training Jow Ga is my statement on what I think is best for me. Not once have I made a statement that another system should do what Jow Ga does. Any comparison that I make is for the purpose of trying to understand a system that I don't train.

It's troubling that every discussion must always circle back to you and your personal training. Your personal training in Jow Ga isn't the topic of this discussion. We're talking about Aikido. If you want to discuss the efficacy of Jow Ga, create "Jow Ga the Reality" thread, and I'll happily make some comments.