Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

Untrained people are better off with these weapons than without. Even the chain whip; Just use the chain only when at long range. At close range, use the spike like a knife. I'd much rather fight someone who didn't have these weapons, then them do.

They are better off with easy to use weapons. Chain whips, staffs, baseball bats, rope darts, three sectional staff, are not easy to use. Staffs are totally useless if you cannot generate powerful strikes or if you cannot quicky strike with them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'd probably use it like a baseball bat, just like anyone else would. Your hands are much safer that way, you get better distance, and more power behind the swing.

Glad to hear you say that, because this is how I train myself and my son to deal with someone with a 6 foot staff. This is the worse way to swing a staff. Use it like a staff or a spear, but if you use it like a baseball bat, you'll only get one good swing then you can kiss your butt goodbye. I would literally give you my staff "tree" to fight me, if you promise to swing it like a bat.

I'll have the staff back either on your first swing or after it. There is a reason why you don't see Chinese or Japanese staff fighting systems swing their staffs like a baseball bat. If you are going to swing a staff like that then your best best is to just toss it as far from me as possible.

 

[Steve]

Depends on how they train. There's nothing that says Aikido techniques have to be applied to someone who is fresh. If he knows how punch and kick, then the person may get other things before the Aikido comes out.

Depends on what? How would an aikidoka have to train in order to perform well in a dog brothers march?

 

[Urban Trekker]

Glad to hear you say that, because this is how I train myself and my son to deal with someone with a 6 foot staff. This is the worse way to swing a staff. Use it like a staff or a spear, but if you use it like a baseball bat, you'll only get one good swing then you can kiss your butt goodbye. I would literally give you my staff "tree" to fight me, if you promise to swing it like a bat.

I'll have the staff back either on your first swing or after it. There is a reason why you don't see Chinese or Japanese staff fighting systems swing their staffs like a baseball bat. If you are going to swing a staff like that then your best best is to just toss it as far from me as possible.

Doesn't sound like you've ever tested that theory on the streets.

Of all weapons that one could possibly use, a bo that's being used the way one is trained to use it is the one that I fear getting into the range of the least.

As many times as I've gotten the broomstick as a form of punishment growing up (I've had a few broken across my back, and acted like nothing happened a half-hour later), I'm not afraid of anything that doesn't weigh heavier at one end (like a baseball bat or gold club).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Doesn't sound like you've ever tested that theory on the streets.

I train everyday with the staff. One of my strength exercises is to use a baseball swing because it takes a lot of strength to get the staff going and a lot of strength to stop the staff. It is inefficient but good for strength building. When I train with my son we don't train Style A vs Style A. We train Style A vs how an untrained person would swing a staff.

We are very ware of where the power is on that swing, We know how much energy it takes to swing a staff like a baseball bat because we swing our staffs like a baseball bat because it take a lot of strength to start it up and to stop it. There are swings that clear a large area like baseball swings but it does so with technique and not by swing the staff like a baseball bat.

In one week we probably do 150 baseball bat swings with a staff a week. We are now in our 3rd week of staff training. so about 450 give or take baseball bat swings for strength building. This does not include the training swings that we use when learning how to deal with such swings.

So you are right. I haven't tested going unarmed against someone swinging a staff like a baseball bat. But I understand where the power is on that swing. The closer I get to the person swinging like that, the less effective the swing will be, to the point where I would be able to take the impact. Because you have both hands on the staff, you have nothing to guard you from open hand strikes, unless you knew how to use the staff.

The things about weapons like the staff, it's really important to understand that where you are most vulnerable when you swing, because people will take advantage of that, by rushing in on your swing causing it to jam as they get closer to your swing. You can see this same truth play out when you watch people spar with staff.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Depends on what? How would an aikidoka have to train in order to perform well in a dog brothers march?

I'm not sure, but they have sword in the system right? So if they spar using their sword techniques instead of the compliant training then they would perform better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of all weapons that one could possibly use, a bo that's being used the way one is trained to use it is the one that I fear getting into the range of the least.

Spar with someone who actually knows how to use a bow staff and your whole world will change.

If this is the training that you are thinking of then you are looking at the wrong thing.

This is the functional stuff

 

[jayoliver00]

Which one is he?

he was sick that day for the photo shoot.

 

[jayoliver00]

They are better off with easy to use weapons. Chain whips, staffs, baseball bats, rope darts, three sectional staff, are not easy to use. Staffs are totally useless if you cannot generate powerful strikes or if you cannot quicky strike with them.

I've seen those videos. Half of them look drunk. They probably would've done worse w/o their sticks.

And nobody's going to randomly run into a staff, lying around in the streets. More than likely, a mop handle if they're lucky. Same goes for chain whips, rope darts, nor 3sec staffs unless they broke into a Kung-Fu joint. Baseball bat, then that's a common thing for people to carry in their cars in bad areas.

 

[jayoliver00]

I sure wouldn't want to get punched by that guy.

this is not difficult.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've seen those videos. Half of them look drunk. They probably would've done worse w/o their sticks.

And nobody's going to randomly run into a staff, lying around in the streets. More than likely, a mop handle if they're lucky. Same goes for chain whips, rope darts, nor 3sec staffs. Baseball, that's a common thing for people to carry in their cars in bad areas.

This people aren't drunk look how long the reload time is on the swings

Look up Dong Stick Fight. They aren't drunk.

Look at these guys they aren't drunk and they are using shorter sticks. What happens when one guy advances in? The other guy retreats because you can't hit someone up close with the grip that they are using for the stick. So they run to create distance.

When you hold a staff like a baseball bat the power is on the end and weak points of power is closer to the hands.

Indian shop owners are fighting. Non-of them are drunk to my knowledge. The closer that person gets the less effective those swings are. Here you can see the exact same thing I'm telling you.

​

 

[JowGaWolf]

And nobody's going to randomly run into a staff, lying around in the streets.

India seems to be stick fighting capital of the world. If you want to see some real stick fights most of them are happening in india.

The point of our statements weren't about randomly running into a staff, lying around in the street. The purpose of our statements were that sometimes trying to fight with a weapon that you are untrained in isn't going to be the advantage that you think it is. In reality it could make things worse for you, especially if the other person takes it away from you and beats you with your own weapon.

In addition, people don't randomly have weapons regardless of what is being used. People usually bring it with them or keep it around. All of the people who got shot in the U.S. weren't shot by people who randomly found a gun on the street during a fight.

If I get into a fight and I hit someone with a staff on their head, then there's nothing random about me having the staff. Just like if I get into a fight and I get stabbed by someone. There was nothing random about the person who had the knife.

To think that someone is going to "randomly pick up a weapon" is not realistic

The machete didn't just randomly show up. Again. sometimes having a weapon doesn't give you the advantage that you think it does. Then the news anchors laugh at the guy with the machete. Even the trash can didn't Randomly show up. I'm pretty sure that trash can is there everyday of the week.

 

[geezer]

Spar with someone who actually knows how to use a bow staff and your whole world will change.This is the functional stuff

The traditional Japanese/Okinawan approach is too formalized and rigid for my taste. Personally I like the way GM Rene Latosa integrates a more boxing-like dynamic to the staff. I find it more natural, practical, and very powerful. Also, if anybody grabs your staff, you transition seamlessly into empty hands. As DTE master Martin Torres (another personal inspiration) likes to say: The stick isn't the weapon. You are the weapon.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The traditional Japanese/Okinawan approach is too formalized and rigid for my taste. Personally I like the way GM Rene Latosa integrates a more boxing-like dynamic to the staff. I find it more natural, practical, and very powerful. Also, if anybody grabs your staff, you transition seamlessly into empty hands.

You just have to translate the traditional stuff more. That traditional staff form isn't rigid it only appears that way. After you figure what the techniques are doing, you can start making the staff techniques more fluid as you train application.

What you see in the staff kata that I showed is not the applications training of the staff. What you see with the GM Rene Latosa is the applications training so it takes on a different look. Jow Ga Staff form is very stiff but it's very aggressive during the applications. Is I training it I can tell the level of aggression that I would need to make it work. I think the Japanese staff kata is the same way. Some of those techniques I recognize from what I train.

Also, if anybody grabs your staff, you transition seamlessly into empty hands.

If anyone grabs your staff then simply use the close range techniques in that Japanese Staff Kata. There are grappling techniques in it. 0:55 is a technique that can be used with grappling, That technique allows you to defend the grab and strike at the same time. It will blow your mind just how much close range and grappling applications are in the double head staff method (grabbing staff towards the middle.

@ 10:37 in the video you posted is a good example of how quick that strike is vs pulling the staff back for a baseball swing.
@10:55 He talks about that aggressiveness that I was referring to. The staff technique doesn't work unless you are aggressive with it. In training my staff I often think to myself "Wow, this is most straight to business stuff I've done." There's no baiting and you attack your opponents staff with a lot of aggression, because that's the only way the follow up technique will work.

@13:25 I think he gets wrong about holding the staff in the middle. If you are holding the staff in the middle then you are using close range fighting techniques, so yes you want to come in closer. If you are on the inside of a long range staff technique, then there's nothing that long range tech can do to hurt you. You will still be able to strike with that short range technique. Now before I get the hate posts.

I think he's right about using the middle of the staff being an issue if you are using his method of staff fighting, but systems that actually use the middle of the staff understand the risks and have techniques and approaches that minimize or remove the risks. He says that he doesn't want to get close, so using the middle of the staff pretty much is the opposite of long technique. Trying to use short staff fighting techniques at a long distance is a lot of work, if you don't plan on advancing.

 

[Flying Crane]

I wouldn't agree with you here. Untrained people using weapons unfamiliar to them are more a danger to themselves than their opponent. You would think that it is an advantage for them to have the weapon but odds are they will be disarmed and attacked with that very same weapon.

I’m gonna say that it depends. A lot of weapons are pretty intuitive. Poke him with the blunt end, hit him with the heavy end, stab him with the pointy end, cut him with the edge, swing that floppy thing at him with the weighted end. Pretty obvious on a simplistic level, and perfectly able to be destructive with it.

I think some people will be incompetent with nearly anything they pick up and try to use. Others could be genuinely dangerous to nearly anyone, even though they have no training with a particular weapon. A fellow with a tire iron or a baseball bat can be very dangerous, even if he never trained to use those implements as a weapon. It is intuitive, even if not at a high level of skill.

when you are talking about specific martial arts weapons, like sword or spear or tonfa or sai, then their efficient and maximum effect in use definitely requires training. But they can still be picked up and used to dangerous effect by someone without training. Stab him with the pointy end, etc. If some fellow picked up a katana and relied on his little-league baseball history to swing it at you, you might be in trouble. Just because he never trained the katana properly doesn’t mean you are gonna have an easy time with him, particularly if you are unarmed.

 

[geezer]

You just have to translate the traditional stuff more. That traditional staff form isn't rigid it only appears that way.

@13:25 I think he gets wrong about holding the staff in the middle. If you are holding the staff in the middle then you are using close range fighting techniques, so yes you want to come in closer... I think he's right about using the middle of the staff being an issue if you are using his method of staff fighting....

OK Jow Ga, Waitin's over. I'm back with the hate stuff!

Well, maybe not actual "hate"... ....but, I do have a response or three!

Starting with the top comment quoted above ...about the "rigidity" of the traditional "karate-ish" (Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, etc.) approach. What is really different is the method of power generation. I had a student who had many years of "hard-style" karate experience and he never was really able to get the looser, more relaxed approach we taught. He is now training at a boxing gym (at age 64 can you believe it? Almost my age!) ...maybe that'll help him.

On the other hand, I've had no problem using the Latosa Concepts approach along with my traditional Chinese training in WC's Luk Dim Boon Kwun when using a short 5'-6' heavy staff. Maybe that's just me, but I think it also has something to do with the greater fluidity of Chinese martial arts and the adaptability of our Escrima methods. I sometimes describe my Escrima end-grip short-staff work as "informal" or "street" Luk Dim Boon Kwun.

Now to your second comments about Latosa Concepts and the center grip. You said: If you are holding the staff in the middle then you are using close range fighting techniques, so yes you want to come in closer...

OK, consider if you have enough room, the end-grip gives you an undeniable advantage over the center-grip in reach, power, and speed ...if you use the staff correctly integrating your whole body with short powerful snaps and thrusts (no baseball bat swings!). That's why Chinese systems favor the single end approach evolved from the spear.

On the other hand, in tight quarters or against an opponent who has closed and is inside your "spear point" of course center grip is your best option. With a six-foot staff you then have almost exactly the same range as you have holding two 25"-30" bastones (escrima sticks), are a little slower, but with a staff you can generate more power.

You also stated above: I think he's right about using the middle of the staff being an issue if you are using his method of staff fighting....

"His method" is quite broad. In fact, In my group we train this way a lot, and I find it very useful. I would gladly stack up what I've taken from Latosa's teaching against my hypothetical twin using a "karate-ish" approach ...including using the center grip. From that grip, we do hit with the center section as well as the ends, and can transition to grappling, punching ...whatever. That's all on the individual practitioner, his skills, and how he trains. The Latosa method I was exposed to years back was about concepts not movements, so it was very adaptable.

You know, when I finish giving and grading exams next week, maybe I can get together some short videos of what I do (never done that before) so we can talk about this some more. In the mean time, keep watching what Lamont does. I like that!

 

[Flying Crane]

Spar with someone who actually knows how to use a bow staff and your whole world will change.

If this is the training that you are thinking of then you are looking at the wrong thing.

gotta say I really hate that stuff. I mean really really. I can barely stand to even watch it.

but that’s just me. One’s mileage may vary.

 

[JowGaWolf]

OK Jow Ga, Waitin's over. I'm back with the hate stuff!

Well, maybe not actual "hate"... ....but, I do have a response or three!

You are always cool with me lol.

Starting with the top comment quoted above ...about the "rigidity" of the traditional "karate-ish" (Okinawan, Japanese, Korean, etc.) approach. What is really different is the method of power generation. I had a student who had many years of "hard-style" karate experience and he never was really able to get the looser, more relaxed approach we taught.

yeah this is a problem when training a "hard style" system. Gotta get some balance in there and flexibility. I have a problem with staying loose and it's something that I have to actually train. Even when I walk or sit down, I try to detect when I'm tensing up.

I need to borrow this guy's beach.

OK, consider if you have enough room, the end-grip gives you an undeniable advantage over the center-grip in reach, power, and speed ...if you use the staff correctly integrating your whole body with short powerful snaps and thrusts (no baseball bat swings!).

The middle grip uses a different power than the end grip. Both have great advantages, but I wouldn't look at it as "one advantage over the other." Because then that leaves the assumption that one is better to use all the time.

I'm trying to think of the best way to explain this as short as possible. We could spend hours talking about this. I don't think I can. This one of those things where I need a staff in my hand and you need a staff in your hand as well.

Think of it this weight. If I put a 20 lb wight on one end of your staff and told you to lift the staff. Are you going to hold the staff at the very end or are you going to hold the staff closer to the weight? This the power that the middle grip use

If I hold the staff at the end and spin around. How long will it take for that end to come back around to the staff ends where it started? If I hold the staff in the middle. how long will it take for one of the ends of the staff to rich the starting point? This is the speed that the middle grip uses.

In Jow Ga we switch between the two ranges (end grip and middle grip). You can see it here.

You also stated above: I think he's right about using the middle of the staff being an issue if you are using his method of staff fighting....

"His method" is quite broad. In fact, In my group we train this way a lot, and I find it very useful.

I say "his method" because he was the one using it and stated that it was his preference. He prefers to fight on the outside with the staff, using the distance, which you shouldn't try to do if you are using the middle grip. If I want to use the middle grip then I need to use it where it is most effective which is at a closer range and inside my opponent's swing. That middle grip was never inteded to fight on the outside for too long. Which is why fingers gets smashed when using that grip on the outside. The closer you come in with the middle grip the less likely your fingers will get hit. Keep in mind. This means that the middle grip does not mean grab the exact center.

This is about the distance that I hold my hands.I may be a little wider than use, because of the angle of the phone, but for the most part his would be middle for me.

This is not middle for me. Hands are way too close together. Hands this close interferes with my ability to generate power correctly, Having hands this close would cause more than just power issues. So from the start, a person using this as middle is going to have some difficulties. When I look at this grip, I can't help to think someone is going to have all fingers and their hands broken. I'm not the best staff guy in the world. Far from it. I'm not even good yet lol, but I've done enough hard drills to get that traumatized feeling of my fingers being smashed in the past. lol.

You know, when I finish giving and grading exams next week, maybe I can get together some short videos of what I do (never done that before) so we can talk about this some more. In the mean time, keep watching what Lamont does. I like that!

Today is staff training day. Wife's been bugging me about it. lol. I had a busy week so my training dipped a little. Everyone at home should be healed now. So we are in good condition to really go at it today. I'll get some footage of some of the things we do. Today's weather started off nice so I'm hoping it stays that way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

gotta say I really hate that stuff. I mean really really. I can barely stand to even watch it.

but that’s just me. One’s mileage may vary.

Well since you love that, I might as well add the cherry.

"Traditional bo staff is for beginners" - And I was so proud of my wax wood staffs.

Someone should make a Movie Fight school where they just teach stuff like that. I think it would do it more justice than calling it Extreme Martial Arts.

 

[drop bear]

Well since you love that, I might as well add the cherry.

"Traditional bo staff is for beginners" - And I was so proud of my wax wood staffs.

Someone should make a Movie Fight school where they just teach stuff like that. I think it would do it more justice than calling it Extreme Martial Arts.

Why is that training essentially any different to a school that doesn't go live with their weapons?