Aikido.. The reality?

[JowGaWolf]

I see you guys are still going at it

 

[Shatteredzen]

I see you guys are still going at it

I'm going to take a break to go check on my folks and do some errands. Howdy and welcome back btw.

 

[Hanzou]

Chauvin had a duty to render aid, he understands positional asphyxiation and also knew he is supposed to assess his suspect for it continuously, he is duty bound to head all calls for medical assistance or trouble breathing even if he believes they are fake and he should have placed Floyd in a recovery position as soon as he was restrained and compliant, called for medical assistance and transitioned to giving first aid and relaxing the now compliant suspect. You don't get that because you are not a cop and don't have the training, of course, why would you? That doesn't change the fact that you are using a bad example and don't understand the situation.

Everything you typed above is completely irrelevant to what I said. It’s a grappling fail because if cops understood grappling they would realize that a knee on someone’s neck isn’t necessary to pin someone down, and it only escalates violence. Again, Chauvin isn’t the only cop I’ve seen using that method of restraint. In Bjj, that restraint and choke is frowned upon, and generally viewed as dirty, unnecessary, and dangerous and should be avoided. There’s far better ways to restrain someone in that position.

It's not that he didn't know what to do its that he DID know EXACTLY what to do and he completely ignored it and continued to use force against a restrained and compliant suspect, which is illegal. Your other examples are equally bad, because a lack of control over the situation does not justify an unlawful use of force to regain control, there is a spectrum of force that officers must use that can be deemed reasonable in its escalation and necessity, you don't get that because you don't have the training.

Again, Chauvin isn’t the only cop who has applied that hold. I’ve seen quite a few cops in various departments around the US use that hold.

In all of these cases, more or less grappling training wouldn't have changed the result in any predictable way, the officers choice to use unlawful force, in violation of their oath, policy and the law were what resulted in these deaths. Do you really want to continue to speak outside of your entire area of expertise or would you like to come back and discuss Aikido? I never said BJJ training wouldn't benefit law enforcement, I said its part of the toolkit and that it does not work on its own in these situations but that its good if the situation comes to a ground fight.

If those uses of force were unlawful, then why are 2/3 of those cops slated to be back on the job by the end of the year?

Do you really want to continue? You seem incapable of following a discussion without veering off course.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Everything you typed above is completely irrelevant to what I said. It’s a grappling fail because if cops understood grappling they would realize that a knee on someone’s neck isn’t necessary to pin someone down, and it only escalates violence. Again, Chauvin isn’t the only cop I’ve seen using that method of restraint. In Bjj, that restraint and choke is frowned upon, and generally viewed as dirty, unnecessary, and dangerous and should be avoided. There’s far better ways to restrain someone in that position.



Again, Chauvin isn’t the only cop who has applied that hold. I’ve seen quite a few cops in various departments around the US use that hold.



If those uses of force were unlawful, then why are 2/3 of those cops slated to be back on the job by the end of the year?

Do you really want to continue? You seem incapable of following a discussion without veering off course.

Its not the hold, its the totality of the situation. I already told you I am not participating in your misuse of these incidents. I have already given you more participation on the subject than I intended because you were on topic with part of your statements even though they were incorrect. I'm moving on, if you want to stay here in the mud then that's you.

 

[Hanzou]

Its not the hold...

Wrong. It is the hold.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm going to take a break to go check on my folks and do some errands. Howdy and welcome back btw.

I'll wait until the convo swing back to exploring the Aikido techniques and looking at the possible functionality that the techniques have or the functionality that that inspire the techniques.

 

[Buka]

I'm just coming into this thread's discussion now.....

All I can say is Wow.

 

[Martial D]

I gave you a sample scenario as an example, you provided video of another scenario that was similar where the officer gets backup and so he is able to get a cuff.

You don't stop to consider that he would have been stuck there in that arm bar if his backup was five or ten minutes out. If he had been better at his standup he wouldn't have gone to the ground, the guy he is fighting is smaller than him with no technique. Your video does not depict what you say it does or counter the points given to you.

You seem to be missing what is going on here. I walked into an ongoing commentary between multiple people trying to reach an opinion about Aikido. I stepped in to help clarify since no other Aikido people had jumped in and the conversation was just a bunch of theory about what people thought was being done or attempted, etc. I attempted to answer everyone's questions and to give a bit of experience and knowledge on the subject since it was clear that no one was talking with any knowledge of Aikido and it was all a bunch of misconceptions, some of them perpetrated by the Aikido community itself. I made only the claim that Aikido has value as a system and works the way it was intended. This became a long, shifting argument about lots of other things as you and a few others have tried to pick different angles of approach to change the argument into what you wanted it to be about. Instead of us having a conversation about the topic of the post, its been a long winded witch hunt to try to get me to bow before you and say "Aikido doesn't work", which I won't do, because I have used it and it does in fact work, contrary to your personal needs to see youtube clips or your lack of satisfaction with my personal anecdotes.

So yes, we have a broad post full of changes of subject and logical fallacy disguised as argument, here's a list in case you need them explained List of fallacies - Wikipedia

Once again, I am not here to convert you or to prove Aikido, I am here to give my opinion and answer questions or to have a discussion about it since you seem to be trying to reach a consensus, its only fair you should have at least one Aikido adherent in the discussion to correct you when you make fictitious statements or misrepresent the martial art. The irony being that you and the others can't see the verbal randori we are having for what it is.

God is real. I don't need to show you evidence because I have personal experience. Wait..wrong forum...

 

[Shatteredzen]

God is real. I don't need to show you evidence because I have personal experience. Wait..wrong forum...

You hate God too?

 

[drop bear]

I gave you a sample scenario as an example, you provided video of another scenario that was similar where the officer gets backup and so he is able to get a cuff.

You don't stop to consider that he would have been stuck there in that arm bar if his backup was five or ten minutes out. If he had been better at his standup he wouldn't have gone to the ground, the guy he is fighting is smaller than him with no technique. Your video does not depict what you say it does or counter the points given to you.

You are not really stuck in that arm bar except at a professional level. Where they might have escapes and you have lost top control.

You can sit back up. And from there transition in to something else. Like a mount or my favourite the kasegetami.

Otherwise sitting in that position for ten minutes would be a lot better than grinding someone in a standing arm bar. Which takes a lot more effort because you don't really have the mechanical advantage.

Bear in mind I want the guy to turn away from me because that will set up their roll in to their front. That is what I am trying to do with that T bag kimoura.

So I mostly just need to make sure I control their near side shoulder. And give him an opportunity to escape the way I want.

 

[drop bear]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=736777553544381

A variation on that theme.

 

[Shatteredzen]

You are not really stuck in that arm bar except at a professional level. Where they might have escapes and you have lost top control.

You can sit back up. And from there transition in to something else. Like a mount or my favourite the kasegetami.

Otherwise sitting in that position for ten minutes would be a lot better than grinding someone in a standing arm bar. Which takes a lot more effort because you don't really have the mechanical advantage.

Bear in mind I want the guy to turn away from me because that will set up their roll in to their front. That is what I am trying to do with that T bag kimoura.

So I mostly just need to make sure I control their near side shoulder. And give him an opportunity to escape the way I want.

I see what you are saying and the tbag kimoura is a good transition but it requires the loss of control during the transition. The standing arm bar would go into the takedown and then you would transition straight into cuffing once they get on their stomach. You are saying ten minutes on your back is fine but its not when there are bystanders who may attempt to intervene while you wait. The videos are a good find though, not that I do cuffing anymore but I will check them out if only for theorycraft.

 

[Shatteredzen]

@drop bear , please watch this, start at 5:36 to miss the pre drill talking.

I am interested to hear your opinion if this kind of drill meets your approval for resistance. This is more akin to what I am talking about running a live drill to practice the techniques although I would have my students mixing in whatever they wanted minus striking, for striking I have always required gloves/headgear/mouthpiece or padding for anything else like elbows/knees, etc that you intend to strike with. I don't know the instructor but the three or four videos I watched from him gave me the impression that he's in the camp of guys trying to fix Aikido (right or wrong) so I figured it was fine to include him. Here the students make some mistakes, but you can see the right emphasis on switching through techniques when one doesn't work and resisting the techniques.

While they aren't that successful getting their kote gaishi to work, the student that gets it most of the way fails to open his gate with his back leg for leverage and leaves the wrist too far out. I believe though you can see from this that this type of drilling gives you the resistance to learn to apply the techniques and it shows contributing factors that allow the techniques to work even if the other guy is resisting. Its not the silver bullet you want I know, but I have seen this type of drill produce students who can apply the techniques efficiently. If this drill doesn't meet your standard, could you please give me the other factors you would want to see added to the drill for it to be satisfying to an outside observer? Serious request for your opinion, no snarkyness here I promise. I'm also happy for anyone else's legit input on what you would like to see as a scientific/presumptive drill to test the Aikido to satisfy the outside observer.

I won't make any promise to start a youtube channel but if I can get a list of legit requirements for what "good" Aikido should look like to you, the non practitioner, I will work on some stuff with one or two of my friends and see if I can get something together that meets your requirements for the members in motion section or something.

 

[drop bear]

@drop bear , please watch this, start at 5:36 to miss the pre drill talking.

I am interested to hear your opinion if this kind of drill meets your approval for resistance. This is more akin to what I am talking about running a live drill to practice the techniques although I would have my students mixing in whatever they wanted minus striking, for striking I have always required gloves/headgear/mouthpiece or padding for anything else like elbows/knees, etc that you intend to strike with. I don't know the instructor but the three or four videos I watched from him gave me the impression that he's in the camp of guys trying to fix Aikido (right or wrong) so I figured it was fine to include him. Here the students make some mistakes, but you can see the right emphasis on switching through techniques when one doesn't work and resisting the techniques.

While they aren't that successful getting their kote gaishi to work, the student that gets it most of the way fails to open his gate with his back leg for leverage and leaves the wrist too far out. I believe though you can see from this that this type of drilling gives you the resistance to learn to apply the techniques and it shows contributing factors that allow the techniques to work even if the other guy is resisting. Its not the silver bullet you want I know, but I have seen this type of drill produce students who can apply the techniques efficiently. If this drill doesn't meet your standard, could you please give me the other factors you would want to see added to the drill for it to be satisfying to an outside observer? Serious request for your opinion, no snarkyness here I promise. I'm also happy for anyone else's legit input on what you would like to see as a scientific/presumptive drill to test the Aikido to satisfy the outside observer.

I won't make any promise to start a youtube channel but if I can get a list of legit requirements for what "good" Aikido should look like to you, the non practitioner, I will work on some stuff with one or two of my friends and see if I can get something together that meets your requirements for the members in motion section or something.

Yes that would essentially be live drilling. That is also my experience with that wristlock throw. That you get a bit of a bend and that is about it.

Now all you need is thousands of people to drill like that.

Once we get enough people drilling live we can start to get an idea of what is going to work and what isn't.

Eventually we will get a guy who is legitimately good at that kind of stuff.

And from there we could springboard the idea that Aikido has these elements that people might want to adopt.

 

[drop bear]

I see what you are saying and the tbag kimoura is a good transition but it requires the loss of control during the transition. The standing arm bar would go into the takedown and then you would transition straight into cuffing once they get on their stomach. You are saying ten minutes on your back is fine but its not when there are bystanders who may attempt to intervene while you wait. The videos are a good find though, not that I do cuffing anymore but I will check them out if only for theorycraft.

There is almost no restraint hold that let's you fight off bystanders. Mabye a hammerlock for a few seconds if you are lucky. Maybe a rear naked using the guy as a shield.

But nothing where you have both hands occupied pinning a dude. Cos you got no hands or mobility to defend yourself.

I assume you mean these straight arm takedowns with the bent wrist pin. Or something similar?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yes that would essentially be live drilling. That is also my experience with that wristlock throw. That you get a bit of a bend and that is about it.

Once we get enough people drilling live we can start to get an idea of what is going to work and what isn't.

Eventually we will get a guy who is legitimately good at that kind of stuff.

And from there we could springboard the idea that Aikido has these elements that people might want to adopt.

The instructor has a good point here, he tells them (but they don't do it, it was obvious this was their first drill like this) to switch from Kote Gaishi to pulling the wrist straight and downward into the forward wristlock instead of trying to crank on it further. I am going to stick with my personal opinion that the kotegaishi is a weapon disarm or a counter to the grab but yes you can force it with enough of a strength disparity although we don't want to advocate to use the technique dirty like that since it won't work for others who can't overpower the attacker.

Were there other elements you want in such a drill or are you fine with "vanilla" aikido versus resistance? I don't care about looking dumb and getting hit I am just sick of trying to find videos that match what I am saying and then arguing about inconsistencies in those videos.

 

[MadMartigan]

Its not the silver bullet you want I know, but I have seen this type of drill produce students who can apply the techniques efficiently.

Very interesting video. My take aways are:
It looks like a good training drill to work timing and transitions. The shortcoming (from my admittedly novice understanding of aikido) is that isn't the way it is exactly meant to be used.

As a TKD black belt, with a blue belt in bjj, who has cross trained for years with aikido (yoshinkan style) basic skills; I've always thought that when done correctly and for real, the goal was often to injure the opponent... not necessarily to throw him.
By this I mean, if I turn the pinky finger side of your hand over your forearm and elbow (to the outside), 1 of 2 things should happen. Someone with ukemi training will feel the danger and go with the pressure to avoid injury (resulting in a seemingly unresisted throw). When the same move is done on an untrained individual, the result is a broken wrist... but no throw. The success of the technique is not in it looking like 2 training partners using break falling techniques to avoid injury. It often actually looks messy and rough.

This brings me to my other observation. The video shows 2 similarly trained fighters, who know what the other guy is trying and how to resist it. You could compare it to rolling in BJJ, but that's part of where the disconnect is. Where BJJ rolling is (mostly) about obtaining position and working for a submission; I view aikido skills as more '1 and done'. The training to transition to another technique if the 1st or 2nd didn't work is necessary (and why 2 akidokas training often looks smooth and without resistance).
I've always looked at and said it this way (and this applies to the other arts as well - not counting vast skill discrepancies). "Nothing works if your opponent knows what you're about to do".
If he knows you're going for a front kick, or 1,2,3 punching combo, he'll dodge.
If I know you're trying for an americana from side control, I won't let you.
If he knows you're trying a wrist lock. It won't work.
If I smack you in the nose 1st, you may not realize my intentions for your wrist and elbow until it's too late. It's all about setup.

Now take all this from someone who has not studied aikido full time. This is how I have been able to work it into my other skills and found real value and use in the right situation. (Besides the time that a forward break fall I learned while training aikido may have literally saved my life once).

 

[drop bear]

I see what you are saying and the tbag kimoura is a good transition but it requires the loss of control during the transition. The standing arm bar would go into the takedown and then you would transition straight into cuffing once they get on their stomach. You are saying ten minutes on your back is fine but its not when there are bystanders who may attempt to intervene while you wait. The videos are a good find though, not that I do cuffing anymore but I will check them out if only for theorycraft.

So this sort of stuff.

Which would be awesome if it worked. But it basically doesn't. Or you tear the guy apart doing it as he face plants in to the concrete at a huge rate of knots. Or gets his arm broken because he wants to thrash.

And also why the comment it is used in police defensive tactics syllabus is not an endorsement for a technique.

 

[Shatteredzen]

There is almost no restraint hold that let's you fight off bystanders. Mabye a hammerlock for a few seconds if you are lucky. Maybe a rear naked using the guy as a shield.

But nothing where you have both hands occupied pinning a dude. Cos you got no hands or mobility to defend yourself.

I assume you mean these straight arm takedowns with the bent wrist pin. Or something similar?

Yes to the straight arm takedown with the wrist pin. This is an area where Aikido helps though and its provable because its movement, the randori does help teach how to "stack" attackers so that they are more in line and so that you can attempt to deal with them more individually. I have never seen this work with JUST the aikido but there is something to be said for circling out and getting two guys bunched up so that you can strike one and draw a baton or try to disable one with a baton combo like whats called "three from the ring".

Despite what you may think of the moves, just watch his movement, notice how he maneuvers and sets the attackers up to force them to deal with him one at a time. While we can't talk about the moves because they are not fully resisting, they are moving at full speed and the movement here is positioning them so that he can deal with each of them individually.

 

[drop bear]

The instructor has a good point here, he tells them (but they don't do it, it was obvious this was their first drill like this) to switch from Kote Gaishi to pulling the wrist straight and downward into the forward wristlock instead of trying to crank on it further. I am going to stick with my personal opinion that the kotegaishi is a weapon disarm or a counter to the grab but yes you can force it with enough of a strength disparity although we don't want to advocate to use the technique dirty like that since it won't work for others who can't overpower the attacker.

Were there other elements you want in such a drill or are you fine with "vanilla" aikido versus resistance? I don't care about looking dumb and getting hit I am just sick of trying to find videos that match what I am saying and then arguing about inconsistencies in those videos.

I am fine with vanilla Aikido with resistance. Honestly I would prefer it to fail some of the time. Real drills do.