Aikido.. The reality?

[Gerry Seymour]

If this was something simple, like making a grilled cheese sandwich, sure. But this is a complex skill set. It's like practicing tight rope walking by walking along a 12" wide wall that's 36" above the ground, and then trying to walk an actual tightrope 100' up without a net. There are a lot of in between steps that any reasonable person would take, that for some reason go out the window when we talk about martial arts.

To answer your question, you won't be well prepared. You might not die, but statistically that is likely anyway.

You seem to be trying to disagree. I’m not sure with what.

 

[Hanzou]

Using examples of unjustified use of force, linking the video of it and then declaring that the situation would have been prevented by BJJ is your opinion, which comes from no position of experience or authority, in a situation you have never been in and quite frankly don't know the slightest thing about.

Which would be an assumption.

Yes, that's pretty disgusting. I give you anecdotal information about my time as a cop and a vague description of a scenario, that's not the same as naming the person, linking the video of the incident and then proudly exclaiming how it proves how great my martial art is. That in itself would be in poor form, a breach of public trust and a poor argument that may satisfy your teenage curiosity but would be horrendously inappropriate. You naming specific victims killed in unjustified uses of force, linking the videos of their deaths and then loosely fumbling your way through the flawed logic that these situations could have been prevented had the officers taken some BJJ classes is laughable as a logic exercise but incredibly juvenile, tone deaf to current events and shows a lack of moral character and empathy at a basic human level. You are like a small child who just crapped his diaper and is arguing that it doesn't need to be changed.

Incredibly, you seem incapable of recognizing that the use of lethal force occurred because the cops lost control of the situation AFTER they failed to control the suspect via grappling. Thus it would seem rather apparent that if the cops didn't fail during the grappling phase of the encounter and controlled the situation at that point, there would never have been the subsequent escalation afterwards. Tying this into the current Aikido discussion, when you get to the point where you and the assailant are on the ground and are pretty much in a scramble to attain dominant position, Aikido is utterly useless at that point. Bjj on the other hand is in its proverbial wheelhouse.

Where's the logic fail exactly? Please try to explain without the juvenile insults please.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Yeah but I want Aikido guys to be doing this.

And not this.

The first video is convincing. Not assurances with nothing to back it up. Dillman no touch ko guy makes assurances. And his stuff is pure fantasy.

Otherwise there is a lot of police training that is quite simply terrible. A lot of cops hate it. So the inclusion in a police defensive tactics course is not on its own a very good endorsement.

I am not sure why the resistance to just showing stuff working. It seems that is the hardest thing in the world. As if I am expected to take people on face value without fact checking them.

Please explain to me how you would transition out of an arm bar from the guard into a mount on the subjects back and then place the subject into handcuffs

A) without exposing yourself to an attack from the subject or a bystander
B) without exposing your firearm or other weapon on your duty belt to the subject or a bystander
C) maintain compliance from the subject the entire time, without providing an opportunity to resist or escape
D) maintain control of the subject in a way that allows you to regain control immediately should resistance occur

The answer is, you can't. No one is saying cops would not benefit from BJJ, as it is, there is commonly BJJ in the defensive tactics curriculum, as a way to fight back to your feet. Cops don't like defensive tactics because they are lazy, the motivated martial artists on the force never complain about a DTAC day with pay. Despite your opinions on the subject, there's much more that goes into an arrest situation and that's why you can't drop on the ground with everyone and go for a choke or submission. IF you get taken down to the ground as a cop you are in a fight for your life immediately and are likely to be attacked by a bystander so maintaining distance and paying more attention to how you enter and receive an opponents line of attack and what you do from there is more Judo and Aikido than it is BJJ, the BJJ is in the one half percent of emergencies where you are scrabbling with someone on the ground trying to get your gun, that's it. I keep trying to explain this to you and you can't seem to understand that if you are on the ground in a fight you are literally waiting to get kicked in the head by the guys friend. Aside from this, you can't cuff a guy in a choke or submission and the moment you turn the submission off you are fighting again, you don't have the option to break the guys arm because he didn't tap.

BJJ is great, all martial arts are great, more training is more training but you have a deluded concept of how confrontations work and you can't seem to get over the fact that BJJ on its own doesn't go anywhere and isn't an end all, be all, neither is MMA sport fighting. I don't have a library of videos for you with Aikido, that doesn't change the fact that it works or that its good for these types of encounters. While I don't think it has a great future in the UFC, I also don't see the logic in discounting a martial art that gives officers a way to handle a subject while using less force and preventing harm to both parties, or why a private citizen wouldn't be well served learning the same. If your argument is "it doesn't work and therefore A/B/C" please remember, you have already had more than one LEO in here saying it works. The irony of some guys not in law enforcement lecturing people in law enforcement about what has and hasn't worked for them is absolute comedy gold on this end, personal anecdotes notwithstanding.

 

[Shatteredzen]

The problems of being on the ground don’t vanish when if you don’t train BJJ. I’ve yet to talk to a LEO who had a habit of cuffing resisting people while standing.

Once again, you are either arguing from a false position or not keeping up with the conversation. The entirety of my position has remained consistent throughout this discussion. Aikido works in the capacity it was designed, it is useful for its intended purpose although it should update its training methods and the overall quality of the schools available is poor, which should be fixed. Who is telling you not to train BJJ? I said multiple times it is taught in police defensive tactics, I learned BJJ and Judo alongside my Aikido, I've advocated for BJJ here. My point is that Aikido should not be used alone, I believe it is a bridge system and was designed that way to fill in gaps between the budo.

The argument you are jumping into is that Aikido is akin to reiki crystal healing and BJJ is the ultimate answer for police, which is false on both counts and I gave you some of the reasons.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Which would be an assumption.



Incredibly, you seem incapable of recognizing that the use of lethal force occurred because the cops lost control of the situation AFTER they failed to control the suspect via grappling. Thus it would seem rather apparent that if the cops didn't fail during the grappling phase of the encounter and controlled the situation at that point, there would never have been the subsequent escalation afterwards. Tying this into the current Aikido discussion, when you get to the point where you and the assailant are on the ground and are pretty much in a scramble to attain dominant position, Aikido is utterly useless at that point. Bjj on the other hand is in its proverbial wheelhouse.

Where's the logic fail exactly? Please try to explain without the juvenile insults please.

Choking someone to death for nine minutes while they scream for their mother and refusing to render aid is a lot different than a grappling failure. Shooting someone in the back running away from you is a lot different than a grappling failure. Its murder. I don't think the Floyd family or any of the other families in those videos would appreciate you using their family members death as an attempt to win an internet karate argument. We can discuss these things in abstract, I for one, do not have an issue with personal anecdote assuming its honored on both sides of the discussion.

Your insistence on using these incidents shows that you don't understand the concept of the use of force in law enforcement and your judgement isn't right to have an educated discussion on it, this is not a dig, its a lack of experience and training on your part that you would have no reason to have. Just like this revolving argument about Aikido, BJJ and MMA, none of these are swiss army knives, if BJJ is the blade in the swiss army knife and judo is the corkscrew and Aikido is the toothpick, they are all different tools with different uses and limitations. You don't seem to grasp this, you think its a simple case of BJJ/MMA being a one size fits all thing and Aikido being useless because you have never trained it, used it or seen it done. That's not martial arts guy. I could go on for hours about all the benefits to a fighter that yoga provides, that doesn't make it a stupid imaginary discipline because I'm not going to train yoga by itself and win the next UFC.

I understand the reasoning behind your argument, but you are missing my points and the reasoning you are following to make your statements comes from a place of inexperience, if it didn't, you wouldn't have the position you do or be so desperate to attack mine. I'm literally just saying that Aikido works, based on my experience, in the way that it was developed. You are taking that to mean a whole lot of things I am not saying, based on your lack of knowledge of the system and what does and does not happen in a real world altercation. You are getting the same tone back that you have given me, if you would like to dial that back to a respectful level, I am happy to do the same assuming you drop specifically these unjustified use of force videos with people dying in them from the conversation.

 

[Steve]

You seem to be trying to disagree. I’m not sure with what.

You said you wouldn't know how good you are. I think you would know. Not at least, you should

 

[Hanzou]

Choking someone to death for nine minutes while they scream for their mother and refusing to render aid is a lot different than a grappling failure.

It's a grappling failure because if you knew anything about that hold (Chauvin isn't the only cop I've seen use that hold on someone), you would know that holding someone in that position is potentially lethal. Further, you would know better ways of restraining someone on the ground, thus putting your knee on the back of their neck would not be necessary.

Shooting someone in the back running away from you is a lot different than a grappling failure. Its murder.

And yet again we have you seemingly missing the point that the shooting in the back was a result of a loss of control on the ground. Like I said, once control is lost, people enter into a panic in an attempt to regain control.

I don't think the Floyd family or any of the other families in those videos would appreciate you using their family members death as an attempt to win an internet karate argument. We can discuss these things in abstract, I for one, do not have an issue with personal anecdote assuming its honored on both sides of the discussion.

I'm sure the fact that the cop who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks is now being reinstated by the Atlanta police is more of a blow than my belief that cops should be highly trained in grappling in order to control situations before they escalate.

Just like this revolving argument about Aikido, BJJ and MMA, none of these are swiss army knives, if BJJ is the blade in the swiss army knife and judo is the corkscrew and Aikido is the toothpick, they are all different tools with different uses and limitations. You don't seem to grasp this, you think its a simple case of BJJ/MMA being a one size fits all thing and Aikido being useless because you have never trained it, used it or seen it done.

Another assumption. But by all means, continue.....

That's not martial arts guy. I could go on for hours about all the benefits to a fighter that yoga provides, that doesn't make it a stupid imaginary discipline because I'm not going to train yoga by itself and win the next UFC.

I understand the reasoning behind your argument, but you are missing my points and the reasoning you are following to make your statements comes from a place of inexperience, if it didn't, you wouldn't have the position you do or be so desperate to attack mine. I'm literally just saying that Aikido works, based on my experience, in the way that it was developed. You are taking that to mean a whole lot of things I am not saying, based on your lack of knowledge of the system and what does and does not happen in a real world altercation. You are getting the same tone back that you have given me, if you would like to dial that back to a respectful level, I am happy to do the same assuming you drop specifically these unjustified use of force videos with people dying in them from the conversation.

Literally no one is talking about your anecdotal Aikido stories. I used verified incidents with tons of video evidence to showcase exactly how those situations could have turned out better. I would prefer for you to explain how Bjj, arguably the most effective grappling martial art currently practiced, would not have benefitted the police in a GRAPPLING situation.

 

[drop bear]

Please explain to me how you would transition out of an arm bar from the guard into a mount on the subjects back and then place the subject into handcuffs

A) without exposing yourself to an attack from the subject or a bystander
B) without exposing your firearm or other weapon on your duty belt to the subject or a bystander
C) maintain compliance from the subject the entire time, without providing an opportunity to resist or escape
D) maintain control of the subject in a way that allows you to regain control immediately should resistance occur

The answer is, you can't. No one is saying cops would not benefit from BJJ, as it is, there is commonly BJJ in the defensive tactics curriculum, as a way to fight back to your feet. Cops don't like defensive tactics because they are lazy, the motivated martial artists on the force never complain about a DTAC day with pay. Despite your opinions on the subject, there's much more that goes into an arrest situation and that's why you can't drop on the ground with everyone and go for a choke or submission. IF you get taken down to the ground as a cop you are in a fight for your life immediately and are likely to be attacked by a bystander so maintaining distance and paying more attention to how you enter and receive an opponents line of attack and what you do from there is more Judo and Aikido than it is BJJ, the BJJ is in the one half percent of emergencies where you are scrabbling with someone on the ground trying to get your gun, that's it. I keep trying to explain this to you and you can't seem to understand that if you are on the ground in a fight you are literally waiting to get kicked in the head by the guys friend. Aside from this, you can't cuff a guy in a choke or submission and the moment you turn the submission off you are fighting again, you don't have the option to break the guys arm because he didn't tap.

BJJ is great, all martial arts are great, more training is more training but you have a deluded concept of how confrontations work and you can't seem to get over the fact that BJJ on its own doesn't go anywhere and isn't an end all, be all, neither is MMA sport fighting. I don't have a library of videos for you with Aikido, that doesn't change the fact that it works or that its good for these types of encounters. While I don't think it has a great future in the UFC, I also don't see the logic in discounting a martial art that gives officers a way to handle a subject while using less force and preventing harm to both parties, or why a private citizen wouldn't be well served learning the same. If your argument is "it doesn't work and therefore A/B/C" please remember, you have already had more than one LEO in here saying it works. The irony of some guys not in law enforcement lecturing people in law enforcement about what has and hasn't worked for them is absolute comedy gold on this end, personal anecdotes notwithstanding.

You would wiggle back up into a t bag kimoura and work from there.

So at the end of the day there is going to be nothing other than your say so that all this stuff works like it is promised.

Which is pretty much been the issue from the start.

Look I would love to throw people to the ground and lock them up with straight arm bars like I learned in my PPCT course. It would solve all these exposure problems, never endanger the other guy and I would look bad ***.

But real fights just don't tend to work that way, sorry.

I mean we hear tales of police throwing off Aikido moves. We see police rolling around on the ground with people.

 

[Shatteredzen]

It's a grappling failure because if you knew anything about that hold (Chauvin isn't the only cop I've seen use that hold on someone), you would know that holding someone in that position is potentially lethal. Further, you would know better ways of restraining someone on the ground, thus putting your knee on the back of their neck would not be necessary.



And yet again we have you seemingly missing the point that the shooting in the back was a result of a loss of control on the ground. Like I said, once control is lost, people enter into a panic in an attempt to regain control.





I'm sure the fact that the cop who shot and killed Rayshard Brooks is now being reinstated by the Atlanta police is more of a blow than my belief that cops should be highly trained in grappling in order to control situations before they escalate.



Another assumption. But by all means, continue.....



Literally no one is talking about your anecdotal Aikido stories. I used verified incidents with tons of video evidence to showcase exactly how those situations could have turned out better. I would prefer for you to explain how Bjj, arguably the most effective grappling martial art currently practiced, would not have benefitted the police in a GRAPPLING situation.

Chauvin had a duty to render aid, he understands positional asphyxiation and also knew he is supposed to assess his suspect for it continuously, he is duty bound to head all calls for medical assistance or trouble breathing even if he believes they are fake and he should have placed Floyd in a recovery position as soon as he was restrained and compliant, called for medical assistance and transitioned to giving first aid and relaxing the now compliant suspect. You don't get that because you are not a cop and don't have the training, of course, why would you? That doesn't change the fact that you are using a bad example and don't understand the situation.

It's not that he didn't know what to do its that he DID know EXACTLY what to do and he completely ignored it and continued to use force against a restrained and compliant suspect, which is illegal. Your other examples are equally bad, because a lack of control over the situation does not justify an unlawful use of force to regain control, there is a spectrum of force that officers must use that can be deemed reasonable in its escalation and necessity, you don't get that because you don't have the training.

In all of these cases, more or less grappling training wouldn't have changed the result in any predictable way, the officers choice to use unlawful force, in violation of their oath, policy and the law were what resulted in these deaths. Do you really want to continue to speak outside of your entire area of expertise or would you like to come back and discuss Aikido? I never said BJJ training wouldn't benefit law enforcement, I said its part of the toolkit and that it does not work on its own in these situations but that its good if the situation comes to a ground fight.

 

[Shatteredzen]

You would wiggle back up into a t bag kimoura and work from there.

So at the end of the day there is going to be nothing other than your say so that all this stuff works like it is promised.

Which is pretty much been the issue from the start.

Look I would love to throw people to the ground and lock them up with straight arm bars like I learned in my PPCT course. It would solve all these exposure problems, never endanger the other guy and I would look bad ***.

But real fights just don't tend to work that way, sorry.

I mean we hear tales of police throwing off Aikido moves. We see police rolling around on the ground with people.

You hear tales about incidents that went well, you see video of incidents that went bad and ended in the worst possible way. Either you didn't read or don't care to have an actual discussion, the transition from armbar from the guard to t bag kimoura requires you to relinquish control of the appendage.

Now we are going with the straight arm bar doesn't work too? You kill me dude.

 

[drop bear]

You hear tales about incidents that went well, you see video of incidents that went bad and ended in the worst possible way. Either you didn't read or don't care to have an actual discussion, the transition from armbar from the guard to t bag kimoura requires you to relinquish control of the appendage.

Now we are going with the straight arm bar doesn't work too? You kill me dude.

This went surprisingly well considering. And yet there is video.

So you have the arm bar you can either bend the arm in to the kimoura and get back up. Or you can tuck the arm under your arm pit and get back up.

Or just handcuff the arm and wait for your buddies to rock up.

The issue is that you are still expecting me to take your word for things. And I am not.

So your whole game play basically flies out the window.

Which is again one of the real problems with Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Once again, you are either arguing from a false position or not keeping up with the conversation. The entirety of my position has remained consistent throughout this discussion. Aikido works in the capacity it was designed, it is useful for its intended purpose although it should update its training methods and the overall quality of the schools available is poor, which should be fixed. Who is telling you not to train BJJ? I said multiple times it is taught in police defensive tactics, I learned BJJ and Judo alongside my Aikido, I've advocated for BJJ here. My point is that Aikido should not be used alone, I believe it is a bridge system and was designed that way to fill in gaps between the budo.

The argument you are jumping into is that Aikido is akin to reiki crystal healing and BJJ is the ultimate answer for police, which is false on both counts and I gave you some of the reasons.

I literally made no comment about Aikido in this portion of the thread. You aren’t really reading what folks are posting, are you?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You said you wouldn't know how good you are. I think you would know. Not at least, you should

If someone is training with no resistance, they don’t actually have any direct feedback to know that. They have to rely on others’ estimations.

 

[Shatteredzen]

This went surprisingly well considering. And yet there is video.

So you have the arm bar you can either bend the arm in to the kimoura and get back up. Or you can tuck the arm under your arm pit and get back up.

Or just handcuff the arm and wait for your buddies to rock up.

The issue is that you are still expecting me to take your word for things. And I am not.

So your whole game play basically flies out the window.

Which is again one of the real problems with Aikido.

He transitions after his partner comes in to assist, so of course that's fine, we weren't talking about that. You don't cuff someone on one arm and then try to wait to get the second cuff, once you have cuffed the first wrist they are now armed with a metal weapon you have to defend against if they get loose, there's a few guys who have gotten nasty lacerations learning that. I am not expecting you to do anything, I am presenting you with information for you to accept, discount, verify, etc on your own. Much like my experience and Aikido, they continue to be real in spite and independent of your belief or regard for them.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I literally made no comment about Aikido in this portion of the thread. You aren’t really reading what folks are posting, are you?

I'm reading while other people are skimming, that's the issue. You began a separate conversation that no one initiated with you about law enforcement not training BJJ which I never advocated. The premise that BJJ is somehow more suited or is the ideal confrontation method for officers is what we were discussing. There is a difference between training a skill to use it to get back to ones feet or to defend against it than saying it works in all situations better than others, which seems to be the prevailing counterpoint you interjected with.

 

[drop bear]

He transitions after his partner comes in to assist, so of course that's fine, we weren't talking about that. You don't cuff someone on one arm and then try to wait to get the second cuff, once you have cuffed the first wrist they are now armed with a metal weapon you have to defend against if they get loose, there's a few guys who have gotten nasty lacerations learning that. I am not expecting you to do anything, I am presenting you with information for you to accept, discount, verify, etc on your own. Much like my experience and Aikido, they continue to be real in spite and independent of your belief or regard for them.

I wouldn't. But then apparently this guy does. And got away with it. He even got away with crossing his legs.

We were talking about a scenario you made up to discredit a method we can see working so you can justify a method we can't see working.

And all of this is so you never have to move past an anecdote.

This is how you would argue a religion. Not a martial art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm reading while other people are skimming, that's the issue. You began a separate conversation that no one initiated with you about law enforcement not training BJJ which I never advocated. The premise that BJJ is somehow more suited or is the ideal confrontation method for officers is what we were discussing. There is a difference between training a skill to use it to get back to ones feet or to defend against it than saying it works in all situations better than others, which seems to be the prevailing counterpoint you interjected with.

I posted a direct reply to a specific point. You took it as an attack on Aikido and as a BJJ fanboy thing (I have only a basic familiarity with BJJ, and no significant training in it). So your post ranting about my supposed attitude toward Aikido demonstrates that you actually did NOT read the posts you replied to.

As for nobody initiating with me, this is a public forum. No invitations are required. Don’t like that? Maybe public forums aren’t a good fit for you.

 

[drop bear]

I'm reading while other people are skimming, that's the issue. You began a separate conversation that no one initiated with you about law enforcement not training BJJ which I never advocated. The premise that BJJ is somehow more suited or is the ideal confrontation method for officers is what we were discussing. There is a difference between training a skill to use it to get back to ones feet or to defend against it than saying it works in all situations better than others, which seems to be the prevailing counterpoint you interjected with.

Not exactly true. BJJ just does really good evidence. You can go from anecdotes, to drills, to live work in class, to videos of police using these methods.

Scientific method right there.

And it all kind of makes sense with itself.

If Aikido could make this sort of case for themselves they would do a lot better.

Aikido makes the case that their moves are more applicable. Which is fair. I have seen Steven Segal movies where he wrecks the whole room.

But doesn't make the case that the techniques are able to be reliably performed.

Which is also the case made in industry training.

Where you just gooseneck everyone and the just comply. I mean yeah. I walk up and gooseneck a guy and he complies then that is a really good move.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I wouldn't. But then apparently this guy does. And got away with it. He even got away with crossing his legs.

We were talking about a scenario you made up to discredit a method we can see working so you can justify a method we can't see working.

And all of this is so you never have to move past an anecdote.

This is how you would argue a religion. Not a martial art.

I gave you a sample scenario as an example, you provided video of another scenario that was similar where the officer gets backup and so he is able to get a cuff.

You don't stop to consider that he would have been stuck there in that arm bar if his backup was five or ten minutes out. If he had been better at his standup he wouldn't have gone to the ground, the guy he is fighting is smaller than him with no technique. Your video does not depict what you say it does or counter the points given to you.

You seem to be missing what is going on here. I walked into an ongoing commentary between multiple people trying to reach an opinion about Aikido. I stepped in to help clarify since no other Aikido people had jumped in and the conversation was just a bunch of theory about what people thought was being done or attempted, etc. I attempted to answer everyone's questions and to give a bit of experience and knowledge on the subject since it was clear that no one was talking with any knowledge of Aikido and it was all a bunch of misconceptions, some of them perpetrated by the Aikido community itself. I made only the claim that Aikido has value as a system and works the way it was intended. This became a long, shifting argument about lots of other things as you and a few others have tried to pick different angles of approach to change the argument into what you wanted it to be about. Instead of us having a conversation about the topic of the post, its been a long winded witch hunt to try to get me to bow before you and say "Aikido doesn't work", which I won't do, because I have used it and it does in fact work, contrary to your personal needs to see youtube clips or your lack of satisfaction with my personal anecdotes.

So yes, we have a broad post full of changes of subject and logical fallacy disguised as argument, here's a list in case you need them explained List of fallacies - Wikipedia

Once again, I am not here to convert you or to prove Aikido, I am here to give my opinion and answer questions or to have a discussion about it since you seem to be trying to reach a consensus, its only fair you should have at least one Aikido adherent in the discussion to correct you when you make fictitious statements or misrepresent the martial art. The irony being that you and the others can't see the verbal randori we are having for what it is.

 

[Shatteredzen]

I posted a direct reply to a specific point. You took it as an attack on Aikido and as a BJJ fanboy thing (I have only a basic familiarity with BJJ, and no significant training in it). So your post ranting about my supposed attitude toward Aikido demonstrates that you actually did NOT read the posts you replied to.

As for nobody initiating with me, this is a public forum. No invitations are required. Don’t like that? Maybe public forums aren’t a good fit for you.

No one took it that way, if you go back and read my post and then your response, its pretty clear that you were advocating for BJJ as a method for arrest procedure. I replied and told you why that may not be the case. You replied saying that it was still better to train for it then not to because arrests shouldn't be made standing up. I responded and told you that you were going off topic in a line of logic that no one was making. If you have not noticed, there's been an ongoing problem with keeping the discussion on target as people try to reframe it for their own purposes. When I said no one was initiating that line of dialogue with you, it was a reminder that you were carrying the conversation off topic in a direction we were not headed, not an exclusionary statement towards your participation in the discussion.

edit, at least that's how it was intended, perceived on my end @gpseymour I have valued your input here.