Aikido.. The reality?

[Hanzou]

it would seem the deaths happened because they shot them, that may or may not, ,have happen if the cops new bjj, but it most definitely wouldn't have,happen if they hadnt shot them as they ran,

as a,solution to stop unnecessary deaths, not shooting seems a lot easier to implement and also 100% reliable

If the cops knew Bjj, they would have had the skill to subdue the men before they broke away from them. Thus, no shooting required.

 

[jobo]

If the cops knew Bjj, they would have had the skill to subdue the men before they broke away from them. Thus, no shooting required.

well that may or may not be true, you have no way of proving that other than offering a biased opinion, no shooting was required, it was completly optional

 

[Hanzou]

well that may or may not be true, you have no way of proving that other than offering a biased opinion, no shooting was required, it was completly optional

It's completely true. Having skill in that form of fighting gives you confidence to know that you can control someone. If you don't have that confidence, and the suspect has already broken away from you, you have no control over the situation. Thus you resort to shooting.

 

[jobo]

It's completely true. Having skill in that form of fighting gives you confidence to know that you can control someone. If you don't have that confidence, and the suspect has already broken away from you, you have no control over the situation. Thus you resort to shooting.

its not provably true in those exspress cases is it,
you could if course say yes it is and provided the proof, but you will just continued with your opinionated mantra

it seems a particularly American view point that spending years diligently build grappling skill, is preferable to just not shooting people running away, the uk seems to manage it most of the time

it does become some what academic as it seems they are going to do neither, when they could of course do both

 

[Hanzou]

its not provably true in those exspress cases is it,
you could if course say yes it is and provided the proof, but you will just continued with your opinionated mantra

it seems a particularly American view point that spending years diligently build grappling skill, is preferable to just not shooting people running away, the uk seems to manage it most of the time

it does become some what academic as it seems they are going to do neither, when they could of course do both

I never said any of those shootings were justified, quite the opposite in fact. That said, if the cops knew some grappling, they could control the person without resorting to more violent methods. That's the point.

Here is the video of the Rayshard Brooks case;

Starting at the 1:08 mark, some grappling knowledge would have been helpful.

 

[jobo]

I never said any of those shootings were justified, quite the opposite in fact. That said, if the cops knew some grappling, they could control the person without resorting to more violent methods. That's the point.

Here is the video of the Rayshard Brooks case;

Starting at the 1:08 mark, some grappling knowledge would have been helpful.

well they COULD have done, that not the same as saying that was the only outcome, which is what you post strongly suggested

 

[Hanzou]

well they COULD have done, that not the same as saying that was the only outcome, which is what you post strongly suggested

Uh, this entire conversation revolves around what they could have done...

 

[jobo]

Uh, this entire conversation revolves around what they could have done...

this entire conversation revolves around you saying the bjj would have ensured a different out come,

you could equally make a case if they hadnt been middle aged,over weight, out of condition and trigger happy, there COULD have been a different outcome.

 

[Hanzou]

this entire conversation revolves around you saying the bjj would have ensured a different out come,

Which makes it still fall into the realm of COULD. In other words, if the cops were skilled in Bjj, they COULD have subdued Mr. Brooks without having to resort to shooting him as he ran away with a taser.

Back to the point that began this entire conversation; Bjj can be highly useful for law enforcement, since we often see cops having to wrestle with assailants on the ground. Aikido simply doesn't have an answer for that situation.

 

[jobo]

Which makes it still fall into the realm of COULD. In other words, if the cops were skilled in Bjj, they COULD have subdued Mr. Brooks without having to resort to shooting him as he ran away with a taser.

Back to the point that began this entire conversation; Bjj can be highly useful for law enforcement, since we often see cops having to wrestle with assailants on the ground. Aikido simply doesn't have an answer for that situation.

could means it possible, not at all how likely it is, if you want to make a case that bjj could have helped, by an unspecified and totally undetermined amount, then nobody can argue, saying as you did that the out come would be different is in the area of fortune readers, youl be right sometimes, but possibly not this time

 

[Hanzou]

could means it possible, not at all how likely it is, if you want to make a case that bjj could have helped, by an unspecified and totally undetermined amount, then nobody can argue, saying as you did that the out come would be different is in the area of fortune readers, youl be right sometimes, but possibly not this time

If the police officers were able to control the suspect on the ground the outcome would have clearly been different. Bjj would have given them the tools to do exactly that because that situation falls perfectly in line with Bjj training methodology.

 

[jobo]

If the police officers were able to control the suspect on the ground the outcome would have clearly been different. Bjj would have given them the tools to do exactly that because that situation falls perfectly in line with Bjj training methodology.

bjj would have given them the tools( what does that even mean? if you mean skill say skill) to attempt to use bjj skills on him, and that's all you can say with any accuracy

they are still middle aged over weight and out of condition, no one knows how that would have turned out, not even you and your fortune telling cards

 

[Hanzou]

bjj would have given them the tools( what does that even mean? if you mean skill say skill) to attempt to use bjj skills on him, and that's all you can say with any accuracy

they are still middle aged over weight and out of condition, no one knows how that would have turned out, not even you and your fortune telling cards

Bjj skills were designed precisely for that situation. This isn't like Aikido or Karate where you do katas and pretend to fight someone when you're training. In Bjj you're actually fighting when you're training, so you become used to dealing with someone attempting to scramble out of your grips, you get used to someone rolling around like a crazy person, you get used to someone attempting to buck you off of them while you're on your back. Further, you get practice doing this against a wide variety of body types and skill levels.

This is simple logic, and we can see the results of cops who have clearly trained this practice versus cops who clearly have not trained this practice. When you have confidence from this fighting range, you're less likely to panic and do stupid stuff (like shooting unarmed people).

As for being overweight and unconditioned, Bjj would have taken care of that too.

 

[jobo]

Bjj skills were designed precisely for that situation. This isn't like Aikido or Karate where you do katas and pretend to fight someone when you're training. In Bjj you're actually fighting when you're training, so you become used to dealing with someone attempting to scramble out of your grips, you get used to someone rolling around like a crazy person, you get used to someone attempting to buck you off of them while you're on your back. Further, you get practice doing this against a wide variety of body types and skill levels.

This is simple logic, and we can see the results of cops who have clearly trained this practice versus cops who clearly have not trained this practice. When you have confidence from this fighting range, you're less likely to panic and do stupid stuff (like shooting unarmed people).

As for being overweight and unconditioned, Bjj would have taken care of that too.

it's very simple logic, child like almost,

nothing you've said gives anything but a vague assurance that things COULD have turned out better if the knew bjj

 

[Hanzou]

it's very simple logic, child like almost,

nothing you've said gives anything but a vague assurance that things COULD have turned out better if the knew bjj

Uh, how is it vague? If you're grappling against people in your training, you're going to be used to grappling someone in a violent situation. Again, we have multiple examples of this methodology working in that fashion. This isn't some mystical mumbo-jumbo, it's science backed by decades of evidence. "Vague" is telling me that Aikido works because Ueshiba threw someone with his pinky, yet not being able to show a modern exponent replicating the feat.

What's more, within your training you get to deal with both experienced grapplers and spazzy newbies, thus developing reactions to their reactions and getting used to how someone responds to you having a hold on them. Having multiple ways to attain positional dominance in a violent struggle is invaluable and fundamental.

 

[jobo]

Uh, how is it vague? If you're grappling against people in your training, you're going to be used to grappling someone in a violent situation. Again, we have multiple examples of this methodology working in that fashion. This isn't some mystical mumbo-jumbo, it's science backed by decades of evidence. "Vague" is telling me that Aikido works because Ueshiba threw someone with his pinky, yet not being able to show a modern exponent replicating the feat.

What's more, within your training you get to deal with both experienced grapplers and spazzy newbies, thus developing reactions to their reactions and getting used to how someone responds to you having a hold on them. Having multiple ways to attain positional dominance in a violent struggle is invaluable and fundamental.

its VAGUE, as its an assurance where you cant actually assure people how it will turn out, so its an assurance which lacks exactitude, hence the use of the term vague,

 

[Shatteredzen]

bjj would have given them the tools( what does that even mean? if you mean skill say skill) to attempt to use bjj skills on him, and that's all you can say with any accuracy

they are still middle aged over weight and out of condition, no one knows how that would have turned out, not even you and your fortune telling cards

Hence the problem with this entire BS argument. You have someone who has never had to arrest an out of control suspect trying to quarterback an incident with make believe internet martial arts skills. It's at the very least, off topic and disrespectful to the people who were killed. Quite frankly the lack of mod intervention on this one after all the complaining from them earlier is pretty bad.

For all the back and forth on here its still been about an existential concept, a style of martial art, which despite the opinion of some, will continue along just fine regardless of internet arguments. While disrespectful and in poor taste in general, the Aikido dog piling happens a lot on the internet where people run their mouths about their sweet skills like they never would on a mat. These are real people being hurt though and videos showing an unjustified use of force to try and make a statement about why your imaginary BJJ expertise could have changed that is stupid, its hurtful, its exploiting the dead to try and manufacture the barest hint of a point that you aren't even succeeding in.

Please, move on to something else and get back on topic or can one of the mods please step in and do their job, do you really want to host this kind of thing on your board?

 

[Hanzou]

Cops need to be better trained = Cops justified in murdering people.
BJJ being more applicable to police work than Aikido= Disrespecting people who were murdered by police.

In short, a laughable interpretation of what is being discussed.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Cops need to be better trained = Cops justified in murdering people.
BJJ being more applicable to police work than Aikido= Disrespecting people who were murdered by police.

In short, a laughable interpretation of what is being discussed.

Using examples of unjustified use of force, linking the video of it and then declaring that the situation would have been prevented by BJJ is your opinion, which comes from no position of experience or authority, in a situation you have never been in and quite frankly don't know the slightest thing about. Yes, that's pretty disgusting. I give you anecdotal information about my time as a cop and a vague description of a scenario, that's not the same as naming the person, linking the video of the incident and then proudly exclaiming how it proves how great my martial art is. That in itself would be in poor form, a breach of public trust and a poor argument that may satisfy your teenage curiosity but would be horrendously inappropriate. You naming specific victims killed in unjustified uses of force, linking the videos of their deaths and then loosely fumbling your way through the flawed logic that these situations could have been prevented had the officers taken some BJJ classes is laughable as a logic exercise but incredibly juvenile, tone deaf to current events and shows a lack of moral character and empathy at a basic human level. You are like a small child who just crapped his diaper and is arguing that it doesn't need to be changed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Except if you go to the ground to wrestle one person, you are vulnerable to anyone else around you, there's also the gun that you have on your hip. Once the suspect is on the ground, the fight should be mostly over, its a matter of putting restraints on a person who is prone at that point. BJJ works well on the ground against a single opponent, that does not mean you want to be on your back with an armbar when you are arresting someone in a parking lot, at night, with five of their friends standing next to you. Yes, you will stack the deck and get backup if you can, but if the altercation begins before you have called for the backup from dispatch, now you have to do that, protect your weapon and arrest the guy who you are fighting with. BJJ is used to fight back to your feet or as a last ditch defense if things go to the ground. If you make a habit of trying to subdue suspects by wrestling with them on the ground instead of taking them down and then getting on top of them you will absolutely get hurt on the job or worse.

The problems of being on the ground don’t vanish when if you don’t train BJJ. I’ve yet to talk to a LEO who had a habit of cuffing resisting people while standing.