Martial D
Senior Master
They are the same thing if you believe they are. Evidence isn't important
Aikido.. The reality?
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Martial D
Senior Master
People just believed they could until the 50th guy that stepped off the cliff happened to be wearing a wingsuit he thought looked snazzy.
OP
OP
The way that I'm using belief is correct.
"I hope that I will win the lottery when I play it, but I don't ever believe that I will."
Hope and belief are not the same thing. Hope is a desire or expectation that something will happen.
I hope I won't get sick. (if you get sick then you might say this.
is not the same as
I believe I won't get sick. (if you are rarely or never sick, then you might say this.)
Have you ever had an ambition in something that you don't believe?
Just because when something is already a fact in someone's mind doesn't mean that they don't feel the need to prove it.
Some people believe in climate change. In their minds, yet they still go out to prove it.
Some people believed that the earth is flat in their minds, yet they still go out to prove it.
Some people believed that witches are real and evil and they burned and drown people at the stake for that.
I believed that kung fu was an effective fighting system before I experienced it. I still believe kung fu is a good effective fighting system. I'm always saying that I want to be a good representation of Jow Ga to show that kung fu can be used. The reason I say belief because there is still some Jow Ga that I know know how to use. The only thing I have to go on is that someone told me it could be used, and on the hope that my understanding of Jow Ga is enough for me to figure it out.
The only things that I don't try to prove in my life are internal things. For example. I don't try to prove the reasoning of my spiritual beliefs. Why? Because my spiritual beliefs don't have anything to do with anyone else. I don't try to prove that I'm a nice guy. I'm not nice to please others. I'm nice because I see some personal benefit in being so. For example, being nice means that I'm less likely to be punched in the mouth.
The more internal something is the less I care about proving it. The more external something is the more important it becomes for me to show the proof. I teach kung fu, so it's not good enough for me to not care if what I believe is fact. Other people may depend on me being accurate about my knowledge and understanding of Kung Fu.
If I were to train you how to fight with Jow Ga Kung Fu. I would only teach you what I can use. I would never teach you what I believe could be use.
OP
OP
Only when there was evidence.
Maybe you accept Icarus as evidence? Maybe angels? A lot of cultures have winged humans long before actual flight.
OP
OP
Sure. Very easy. You can see for yourself.
Design something that has never existed on this planet before. Meaning that there is no evidence that it is possible there is no evidence that it isn't possible.
Start there. Once you are there. You let me know where your idea comes from in the absence of evidence.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
i think people saw things fly before they figured out how to get us up there. We could observe that flight was possible.
People HOPED humans could fly, because they could see that flying was possible.
Wow. Just...wow.
I nominate this for most ridiculous statement of the week. Or month. Actually, of the year.
Religion is 100% about belief. Religions are defined by the beliefs held by their adherents.
I cannot find a way to parse this that even begins to make sense.
Wing Woo Gar
Senior Master
I call em like I see em. It’s evidence based.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I believe you believe that it’s evidence based.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
I think you are potentially missing the massive amount of work that turns an idea in to a practicality.
Nobody just went. Hey flying would be cool and just flew.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Superman did. And he’s real. I believe that.
So sticking with your example of flying... nobody did this.
There was an abundance of evidence that flying was possible. Because birds. Because leaves. Because paper.
OP
OP
I think it played out like that too. But man would have only tried to figure a way to fly if they believed that it was possible. Seeing birds fly is only evidence that birds fly. It is not evidence that man can fly. Sort of like a spider spinning web from his butt, doesn't mean humans can do it.
Historically pictures from all cultures show human figures with wings. So that suggest that mans would need wings to fly only because birds had them. Much of the early design for flying machines were bird like in design. Ironically the first flight was a hot air balloon if you want to call floating flying.
about 20 years ago I read a debate that the first flying machine was created by Leonardo Da Vinci as described by some written account. My personal thought is that he wasn't trying to reproduce how birds fly. If birds fly like A, then humans must fly like A.
I think if we took him out of the past, he would rather create this type of stuff than to create planes.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Look man. I really think you’ve allowed yourself to get out on a limb, trying desperately to justify an extreme, unreasonable position, and are just too stubborn to admit it.
OP
OP
I believe it's true. But I don't think the people who hoped it were the ones who pursued it. There's a lot of stuff that I hope for, but I only go after the stuff that I believe.
I hope for world peace but what am I'm doing to make that a reality. Am I'm activity trying to create world peace?
I hope for a cure for cancer. But want am I doing to make that reality. I may pay donate money because I hope that money will help discover a cure for cancer.
I hope to be a good martial artist. But that's a different mindset than if I believed that I can be a good martial artist.
When people say Affirmations they say "I am" not "I hope I am." Hope often doesn't come with a plan. Don't get me wrong. Hope is good to have. It just often doesn't involve a plan in making things happen.
Religion is always about belief, but belief isn't always about religion. Religion is always about faith, but faith isn't always about religion.
Religion - "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. As you can see. This is specific."
Belief. - "an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something
It doesn't say anything about religion.
This is the definition of faith
Faith - complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
Read quotes and essays about these 2 things you will see that they are not the same and that I'm not the only one who thinks this.
OP
OP
If you take my challenge then you will be one of the many who have done it. The first thing that will come to your mind is the idea void of evidence, then the belief that it is something that you can make true.
There is an abundance of evidence that animals live in the deepest parts of the ocean. Name one human that lives there? Yet there is a lot of evidence that life is there.
OP
OP
Nope. I'm not missing it. I know it's there. But the idea and the belief comes before the work and sometimes it comes before the evidence.
Why would you put hard work into something that you don't believe was possible?
OP
OP
And there you have it. Your belief.
OP
OP
What is the extreme that I'm trying to justify?
OP
OP
ha ha ha too stubborn.
Things I've done on more than one occasion since I've been in this forum.
1. Apologize when I unintentionally offended someone.
2. Admit when I'm wrong.
3. Thanked people who corrected me.
I'm pretty sure I made a comment about Drop Bear bring up a valid point about the "Island Boys" If my memory is correct I think I've said " Drop bear got me with the Island Boys" or something to that measure.
I'm actually curious to know what you think the unreasonable position is.
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