Aikido hate

[Gerry Seymour]

I am trying to show commonalities under different circumstances to support my idea. You wouldn't accept trained fighters. Because you think that doesn't apply. So I gave you untrained fighters. And even trained vs untrained fighters.

And you are still not happy.

I feel like I am doing all the work in this discussion.

I mean if just calling an idea BS was the end of it I would have done it 20 posts ago and saved myself trying to explain why it is BS.

Okay, literally the first applicable video I looked at on Youtube, searching by "bully". I bypassed those that were about how to fight/defend/stop a bully, and went with the first one that was a compilation. Nearly every instance shows someone off-balance and/or over-committed in their attack. Nearly always the first attack. People reach, people lean forward or away, people strike ineffectively. I could find dozens more of these - I know because I come across them on a regular basis. And in this one we also get to see some skilled (one even looks trained) deliveries. Both happen.

2:50 (both guys in the first moments)
3:40 (the only one getting punches in)
4:50 (the opening attack)
5:30 (both kids)
7:00 (the girl who loses her ****)

 

[JP3]

How about some sort of cool ninja throw where you use their force against them.

But generally out of the way is best case.

I don't know if ninja have the set of throws that genrally fall in line with my thought of, "While you're headed on by... take That with ya!" But, if you converted his horizontal vector into a vertical vector int he down direction by... like... tripping him, that'd be way neat-O. No ninja needed.

 

[drop bear]

Okay, literally the first applicable video I looked at on Youtube, searching by "bully". I bypassed those that were about how to fight/defend/stop a bully, and went with the first one that was a compilation. Nearly every instance shows someone off-balance and/or over-committed in their attack. Nearly always the first attack. People reach, people lean forward or away, people strike ineffectively. I could find dozens more of these - I know because I come across them on a regular basis. And in this one we also get to see some skilled (one even looks trained) deliveries. Both happen.

2:50 (both guys in the first moments)
3:40 (the only one getting punches in)
4:50 (the opening attack)
5:30 (both kids)
7:00 (the girl who loses her ****)

And so you go on youtube and replicate a bad fight and then try to develop counters specific to that.

Like some sort of Michael page style thing.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know if ninja have the set of throws that genrally fall in line with my thought of, "While you're headed on by... take That with ya!" But, if you converted his horizontal vector into a vertical vector int he down direction by... like... tripping him, that'd be way neat-O. No ninja needed.

I agree. and we try stupid stuff in sparring because if we pull it of it would be neat-O as well.

But if there are consequences to losing that fight the neat-O factor is less important than the not get punched in the head being a goose-O.

 

[jobo]

And so you go on youtube and replicate a bad fight and then try to develop counters specific to that.

Like some sort of Michael page style thing.

I sort of see your point, but maybe we have different perspectives. I'm reasonably sure that of I get into a fight with even an average level mma fighter, a kick boxer, a boxer even a bjj er . I will lose. But as I have no intention of getting in to an octagon/ ring or going down the bjj gym and shouting my mouth off, this is of no real concern to me. It's not that I train to only fight bad fighters, as you would have it. It's just i am were I am in my development and if I have to use my skills in real life then there are over whelming odds that it will be against an untrained fighter .

 

[drop bear]

I sort of see your point, but maybe we have different perspectives. I'm reasonably sure that of I get into a fight with even an average level mma fighter, a kick boxer, a boxer even a bjj er . I will lose. But as I have no intention of getting in to an octagon/ ring or going down the bjj gym and shouting my mouth off, this is of no real concern to me. It's not that I train to only fight bad fighters, as you would have it. It's just i am were I am in my development and if I have to use my skills in real life then there are over whelming odds that it will be against an untrained fighter .

Yeah but i assume you are training to combat good fighters. Even if your level of development isn't there.

Not this is how you defend a bad punch. This is how you defend a good punch.

And this is an idea that is supposed to be specifically catered towards self defence.

I love a cartwheel when I do capoeira. Not really for self defence though.

I mean if Aikido even leaned towards high percentage low risk. It would be taking some pretty big steps forward.

 

[jobo]

Yeah but i assume you are training to combat good fighters. Even if your level of development isn't there.

Not this is how you defend a bad punch. This is how you defend a good punch.

And this is an idea that is supposed to be specifically catered towards self defence.

I love a cartwheel when I do capoeira. Not really for self defence though.

I mean if Aikido even leaned towards high percentage low risk. It would be taking some pretty big steps forward.

well that's not really why I am training, I could robustly defend myself against most people before I started training. I am now considerably fitter than I was then. So that ability will have increased. I dont see any likelyhood of me being attacked by a trained fighter whilst outwalking my dog, so no I'm not training to be able to deal with good fighters, I'm training to deal more effectively with drunks jumkies muggers and random idiots with pit bulls. Who are almost certainly not good fighters by your measure

 

[drop bear]

well that's not really why I am training, I could robustly defend myself against most people before I started training. I am now considerably fitter than I was then. So that ability will have increased. I dont see any likelyhood of me being attacked by a trained fighter whilst outwalking my dog, so no I'm not training to be able to deal with good fighters, I'm training to deal more effectively with drunks jumkies muggers and random idiots with pit bulls. Who are almost certainly not good fighters by your measure

Yeah but do you train specifically to combat drunks or bad fighters?

"Sorry that hook punch is a bit tight. Can you make it worse. And mabye over balance a bit? I am trying to train for the street here. "

 

[jobo]

Yeah but do you train specifically to combat drunks or bad fighters?

"Sorry that hook punch is a bit tight. Can you make it worse. And mabye over balance a bit? I am trying to train for the street here. "

but we are back at the beginning. I would expect my oppoinent to over commit over extend and go of balance, coz that's what 90% of people will do. My techniques' will deal with that with ease, if they are using tight compact techniques'. Il give up and hand over my wallet. Because I am going to lose anyway. I am as you put it training for the street , why would I worry about defending against a trained fighter

 

[JP3]

I didn't look at the video before my other post (not pertinent to the point I was making). These appear to all be sucker punches, and most are nicely compact, started from well within striking range, with only a bit of weight-forward commitment. Those aren't things anyone is likely to enter against. Those - if you can spot them - get blocked and slipped for survival.

The point I take from that video is... maintain the distance. To be inside (mai ai)is to be blasted.

Also... if you're that close to a potential threat, get your hands up and make the guy go through them.

Crap... now I sound like Geoff.

 

[JP3]

So are the punches in video skilled or unskilled in your opinion?

I don't know about him, but to me, those were skilled punches, thrown by people who figured out how to successfully sucker punch someone, i.e. trained and skilled. Training doesn't have to happen in a gym, or a dojo... training can happen anywhere someone learns something and works on it.

 

[drop bear]

but we are back at the beginning. I would expect my oppoinent to over commit over extend and go of balance, coz that's what 90% of people will do. My techniques' will deal with that with ease, if they are using tight compact techniques'. Il give up and hand over my wallet. Because I am going to lose anyway. I am as you put it training for the street , why would I worry about defending against a trained fighter

Well you shouldn't.

But I will tell you why I should. Being able to deal with a trained fighter will help me deal with an untrained fighter. I do not suffer a disadvantage if a strike has more mistakes in it or I have more time to deal with it. That works in my favor. If I can dodge a bullet. I can dodge a tennis ball.

Plus the more trained fighters who are leaning to deal with untrained fighters also work in my favor. Because while I can deal with untrained fighters. They can't as effectively deal with me. So there is a whole section of trained fighters that have now put themselves at a disadvantage.

And I will be more equiped to deal with a trained fighter. Because I am dealing with trained fighters.

So I get to deal with a much larger range of circumstances with a smaller range of strategies. And while none of my strategies will be considered neat-O they will be more likely to work.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know about him, but to me, those were skilled punches, thrown by people who figured out how to successfully sucker punch someone, i.e. trained and skilled. Training doesn't have to happen in a gym, or a dojo... training can happen anywhere someone learns something and works on it.

No. I am pretty sure most punches are unskilled in the street. That is why there is all that time dedicated towards defending them.

 

[drop bear]

The point I take from that video is... maintain the distance. To be inside (mai ai)is to be blasted.

Also... if you're that close to a potential threat, get your hands up and make the guy go through them.

Crap... now I sound like Geoff.

Position will save you more than a guard in a bare knuckle fight. Just too much can go wrong too quickly.

Of course a guard will save you more than no guard.

So fence, angle off.

you have a lot less control over the direction of this sort of fight. Because you are moving forwards and taking risks.

 

[JP3]

I mean if Aikido even leaned towards high percentage low risk. It would be taking some pretty big steps forward.

If you're looking at the foo-foo stuff while dancing around in hakama, the pretty ukemi being taken while going with and not fighting techniques while "thinking" all that stuff works just the same as on the street.... I'm with that.

But, that's not what I do. I think I'm doing aikido when I'm doing the below, though I may not be using aikido techniques, whatever those are. armbar is armbar, we had that discussion in May.

Crisp attacks get blocked when it's required, and opponents get struck, hard, when openings appear, and they always do -- that's a two-way street.

Guy swings big right slip right, catch it on guard twist back right and block right while firing counterpunch, or your striking technique de jour, if opening is there to get an arm drag to take the back do that.... fighting up the middle is no fun.

Or, big right hand comes in and you duck, dodge, slip whatever and now you are immediately behind them. Surely this has happened to you. People throw WAY more punches than they hit with, it's worse than the baseball pitcher vs. hitter comparison, typically. And for this one, the only difference between skilled and unskilled is that skilled guys have a higher batting average and throw the bat (i.e. lose their balance, overextend, overcommit, etc) less often.

 

[JP3]

No. I am pretty sure most punches are unskilled in the street. That is why there is all that time dedicated towards defending them.

Sophistry. Or, sarcasm. My detector's batteries are almost dead.

 

[JP3]

Position will save you more than a guard in a bare knuckle fight. Just too much can go wrong too quickly.

Of course a guard will save you more than no guard.

So fence, angle off.

you have a lot less control over the direction of this sort of fight. Because you are moving forwards and taking risks.

You wrote that like you thought I didn't know that, Drop.

 

[drop bear]

If you're looking at the foo-foo stuff while dancing around in hakama, the pretty ukemi being taken while going with and not fighting techniques while "thinking" all that stuff works just the same as on the street.... I'm with that.

But, that's not what I do. I think I'm doing aikido when I'm doing the below, though I may not be using aikido techniques, whatever those are. armbar is armbar, we had that discussion in May.

Crisp attacks get blocked when it's required, and opponents get struck, hard, when openings appear, and they always do -- that's a two-way street.

Guy swings big right slip right, catch it on guard twist back right and block right while firing counterpunch, or your striking technique de jour, if opening is there to get an arm drag to take the back do that.... fighting up the middle is no fun.

Or, big right hand comes in and you duck, dodge, slip whatever and now you are immediately behind them. Surely this has happened to you. People throw WAY more punches than they hit with, it's worse than the baseball pitcher vs. hitter comparison, typically. And for this one, the only difference between skilled and unskilled is that skilled guys have a higher batting average and throw the bat (i.e. lose their balance, overextend, overcommit, etc) less often.

It happens in a fight where you have a bit of time to figure out what the other guy is going to do. Or where your basics are to a point you can start taking risks. I was going to say sports fight here. But a street fight could go long enough.

And then the way to train a crap punch if you were that mad keen on the idea. In the middle of sparring heve them throw an over-committed shot. See if you can pick it up from the committed ones of the bat while moving. Because the idea is you are supposed to know the difference in that split second the punch comes.

If you can pull that off I would be more convinced your theory could work.

And would still not advise it for self defence. Because of the risks.

 

[drop bear]

You wrote that like you thought I didn't know that, Drop.

Yeah well Geoff doesn't.

 

[Paul_D]

I don't know about him, but to me, those were skilled punches, thrown by people who figured out how to successfully sucker punch someone, i.e. trained and skilled. Training doesn't have to happen in a gym, or a dojo... training can happen anywhere someone learns something and works on it.

Indeed, the second one in particular (guys smoking cigarettes) the guy was clearly an experienced criminal, using distraction/deception (have you got a fag/light etc) and then takes the guy out of the game before he even knows he's in it. He may not be a skilled "fighter" buts he's a skilled criminal, and that's what you're dealing with when it comes to SD. Like you say, he may not have learnt it in a gym, but it doesn't stop him being skilled. The few others that I watched were all powerful, on target, reasonably untelegraphed and got the job done.