Aikido hate

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how showing skilled people throwing skilled punches is supposed to be a counter, given I've said those are a different animal.

As for moving the whole body, pretty much all throws use that. Try to do a takedown without it. Heck, a wide range of punching involves stepping in, too. So, I'm not sure what your point is about having to move the body. We all do it, kind of a lot.

Because you have one set of counters for skilled punches and one set for unskilled punches and are somehow able to determine which is which in half or a quater of a second depending on what your reaction time is.

Then within that time you think you can move your whole body in to position to take advantage of that unskilled punch. Unless of course it is a skilled punch which means you could either be moving in to a punch or just standing there like a deer in the headlights while you are deciding what to do.

here is a heap of unskilled punches. Again showing people have no time to do what you are suggesting they can do.

 

[Paul_D]

here is a heap of unskilled punches. Again showing people have no time to do what you are suggesting they can do.

I only watched the first five, and then pretty much got the jist. Five punches, five knockouts, I am curious to know why you class these as unskilled?

They are not wild haymakers and the attackers just get lucky, they are relatively untelegraphed, powerful strikes delivered with intent to the right target to secure a KO. If you class these as unskilled, what are classing as skilled, or did the unskilled punches come later on in the video?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because you have one set of counters for skilled punches and one set for unskilled punches and are somehow able to determine which is which in half or a quater of a second depending on what your reaction time is.

Then within that time you think you can move your whole body in to position to take advantage of that unskilled punch. Unless of course it is a skilled punch which means you could either be moving in to a punch or just standing there like a deer in the headlights while you are deciding what to do.

here is a heap of unskilled punches. Again showing people have no time to do what you are suggesting they can do.

That's actually my point about the difference. Time to recognize them? That time is the same whether you take your approach or mine. I'm not standing there wondering if it's a good punch or bad (and neither are you). We're both recognizing (pattern recognition) the attack. Or we aren't. If we do, we respond with something appropriate. If we don't, we respond with something inappropriate or fail to respond. It's not a matter of choosing between the two, but a matter of recognizing the thing that's happening. We do this all the time - it's how you know when a shoot for your legs is coming. You don't have to stop and wonder whether it's a shoot for the legs or a drop seoi nage or an arm drag. Your pattern recognition simply identifies it as what it is. If you screw up, they succeed. If you match it (and have an effective counter in your ready toolkit), they fail. So, I'm not adding another decision, I'm just storing a pattern that matches the less-skilled punch, making it recognizable the same way that shoot is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because you have one set of counters for skilled punches and one set for unskilled punches and are somehow able to determine which is which in half or a quater of a second depending on what your reaction time is.

Then within that time you think you can move your whole body in to position to take advantage of that unskilled punch. Unless of course it is a skilled punch which means you could either be moving in to a punch or just standing there like a deer in the headlights while you are deciding what to do.

here is a heap of unskilled punches. Again showing people have no time to do what you are suggesting they can do.

I didn't look at the video before my other post (not pertinent to the point I was making). These appear to all be sucker punches, and most are nicely compact, started from well within striking range, with only a bit of weight-forward commitment. Those aren't things anyone is likely to enter against. Those - if you can spot them - get blocked and slipped for survival.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't look at the video before my other post (not pertinent to the point I was making). These appear to all be sucker punches, and most are nicely compact, started from well within striking range, with only a bit of weight-forward commitment. Those aren't things anyone is likely to enter against. Those - if you can spot them - get blocked and slipped for survival.

Yeah I thought you would find a way those dont apply either. Witch just means this perfect strike you are training for may not be the one you get. And is seeming less and less comon.

 

[drop bear]

That's actually my point about the difference. Time to recognize them? That time is the same whether you take your approach or mine. I'm not standing there wondering if it's a good punch or bad (and neither are you). We're both recognizing (pattern recognition) the attack. Or we aren't. If we do, we respond with something appropriate. If we don't, we respond with something inappropriate or fail to respond. It's not a matter of choosing between the two, but a matter of recognizing the thing that's happening. We do this all the time - it's how you know when a shoot for your legs is coming. You don't have to stop and wonder whether it's a shoot for the legs or a drop seoi nage or an arm drag. Your pattern recognition simply identifies it as what it is. If you screw up, they succeed. If you match it (and have an effective counter in your ready toolkit), they fail. So, I'm not adding another decision, I'm just storing a pattern that matches the less-skilled punch, making it recognizable the same way that shoot is.

You have to adopt a different move to stop a shoot. You dont have adopt a different move to stop a sloppy punch vs a crisp one. You can if you are a top tier competition fighter and you start working peoples games. But that is not self defence.

By the way if you look like you want to shoot because you are known for your wrestling and then uppercut you can then double bluff them. But is kind of over engeneered for what you are trying to achieve in SD.

about 6 minutes in.

 

[drop bear]

I only watched the first five, and then pretty much got the jist. Five punches, five knockouts, I am curious to know why you class these as unskilled?

They are not wild haymakers and the attackers just get lucky, they are relatively untelegraphed, powerful strikes delivered with intent to the right target to secure a KO. If you class these as unskilled, what are classing as skilled, or did the unskilled punches come later on in the video?

Well. There is your issue. Because the dogma is that people on the street will most likley throw an unskilled punch. Now if people are not throwing unskilled punches then the dogma may not reflect the reality.

Doesnt phase me as good defence that will stop a skilled punch will stop an unskilled one. So I have taken the safest option. Not good If you have trained yourself to stop an unskilled punch though.

Gpseymour wouldn't accept an overhand right thrown and connected as relevant because it was in a cage. Even though in theory the other guy had plenty of time to see it and counter it.

I guess we just wont see this style of punching anywhere.

 

[jobo]

Well. There is your issue. Because the dogma is that people on the street will most likley throw an unskilled punch. Now if people are not throwing unskilled punches then the dogma may not reflect the reality.

Doesnt phase me as good defence that will stop a skilled punch will stop an unskilled one. So I have taken the safest option. Not good If you have trained yourself to stop an unskilled punch though.

Gpseymour wouldn't accept an overhand right thrown and connected as relevant because it was in a cage. Even though in theory the other guy had plenty of time to see it and counter it.

I guess we just wont see this style of punching anywhere.

butt those have made the video because the guy fell over when hit. There are millions of punches thrown were no one falls over. So its not a representative sample to build as case on.

don't forget you need to make a stand alone argument

 

[drop bear]

butt those have made the video because the guy fell over when hit. There are millions of punches thrown were no one falls over. So its not a representative sample to build as case on.

don't forget you need to make a stand alone argument

Good point. Statistically we should be training for strikes so terrible they dont even hit the target.

Not really helping the case though.

 

[drop bear]

Lets try this. this a brophy tent. Where for a fun night you get off chops and then challenge a pro boxer.

Now by the third round the boxer can do any old thing he wants because by then he knows exactly how crap his oponant is. Including ludicrous ideas like throwing scorpion punches.

He doesn't fire that stuff off on the start of the first round because he has no idea who he is facing.

Fighting conservatively.

Now you can train things like the scorpian to be used against terrible punching. But you should leave that for impressing people and mocking your opponent. Not for serious self defence.

And the methods that work against good striking work against bad striking. Why do you need separate methods?

 

[jobo]

Good point. Statistically we should be training for strikes so terrible they dont even hit the target.

Not really helping the case though.

well I do train for punches that don't hit, or rather I train to not be there any more. You cant train to be hit, if they hit you they hurt you, if they hit you hard enough you fall over. There is no training that can stop that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gpseymour wouldn't accept an overhand right thrown and connected as relevant because it was in a cage. Even though in theory the other guy had plenty of time to see it and counter it.

That's BS, just so you know, in case you weren't aware of what you were spewing.

 

[drop bear]

That's BS, just so you know, in case you weren't aware of what you were spewing.

I am trying to show commonalities under different circumstances to support my idea. You wouldn't accept trained fighters. Because you think that doesn't apply. So I gave you untrained fighters. And even trained vs untrained fighters.

And you are still not happy.

I feel like I am doing all the work in this discussion.

I mean if just calling an idea BS was the end of it I would have done it 20 posts ago and saved myself trying to explain why it is BS.

 

[Paul_D]

Well. There is your issue. Because the dogma is that people on the street will most likley throw an unskilled punch.

I think I get it now, are you saying that people think punches on the street are unskilled, but you have posted the video to show that in reality they are skilled?

 

[drop bear]

I think I get it now, are you saying that people think punches on the street are unskilled, but you have posted the video to show that in reality they are skilled?

Not even.

I am saying treat them as skilled. And the unskilled will take care of themselves.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am trying to show commonalities under different circumstances to support my idea. You wouldn't accept trained fighters. Because you think that doesn't apply. So I gave you untrained fighters. And even trained vs untrained fighters.

And you are still not happy.

I feel like I am doing all the work in this discussion.

I mean if just calling an idea BS was the end of it I would have done it 20 posts ago and saved myself trying to explain why it is BS.

No, I said trained fighters are different. I started with that position, so I didn't say it didn't apply, I said it wasn't contrary to my original statement. You are doing a lot of work to show things that don't fit one side of my statement, which doesn't really refute anything, since I actually said there are two different things to be dealt with. If I say a golf ball is different from a cricket ball, posting a lot of pictures of cricket balls doesn't refute that statement.

I'll have some time this weekend to link some videos that show what I'm talking about on the other side.

 

[Paul_D]

Not even.

I am saying treat them as skilled. And the unskilled will take care of themselves.

So are the punches in video skilled or unskilled in your opinion?

 

[jobo]

So are the punches in video skilled or unskilled in your opinion?

its a false choice they are nether. Punching in its self is a,skill ergo all punched are skilled or by comparison with a pro boxer they are unskilled

 

[Paul_D]

its a false choice they are nether. Punching in its self is a,skill ergo all punched are skilled or by comparison with a pro boxer they are unskilled

You said that without moving your lips DB

 

[drop bear]

So are the punches in video skilled or unskilled in your opinion?

Unskilled.