Aikido hate

[Brian R. VanCise]

Is 20 hours a lot as compared to training martial arts?

No, not really and I would advocate any LEO to seek out more training and most do.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

this may blow your mind, but I've never argued for resistance training to exclusion of other training tools. If you think I have, I either haven't explained it well or you just don't get it... maybe a little of both. ive actually said the opposite many, many times. Weird, I know, because you think you get it. And it's inconceivable to you that you don't.

Really Steve, you could have simply said, "I don't advocate resistance training above all other training tools". Rather than trying to be snarky and insulting.

 

[drop bear]

No, not really and I would advocate any LEO to seek out more training and most do.

And that sounds a reasonable response.

But not the opinion of every fireams instructor or enthusiast. Or they wouldn't put people out there with the training they do.

For me if I were to do firearms with the intention of ever actually using one. There would be some simulated gun fights. Some sort of real feed back and some sort of honesty. It would be screw what feels good. Or what grows me as a person. I would want this stuff to work.

Notice how you are moving into gun training hate by suggesting the bare minimum really isn't advisable if you are going to bank your head on the results?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No I am not moving into gun training hate. I actually am in the field.

I have yet to meet a firearms instructor or enthusiast who thinks there is a bare minimum. Heck I have an eight hour course tomorrow myself. Eight hours in a row...

 

[drop bear]

No I am not moving into gun training hate. I actually am in the field.

I have yet to meet a firearms instructor or enthusiast who thinks there is a bare minimum. Heck I have an eight hour course tomorrow myself. Eight hours in a row...

So these fireams instructors are signing of on guys as competent. But don't believe that they really are.

I mean at what point in a police officers career will they be expected to have to use the weapon they have done 20 hours on?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

All the firearm instructors I know including those at the academy would tell you to regularly get instruction and then invest in more training. Not just a one off and you are all set!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Anyways, let's move the thread back to Aikido...

We can always talk in conversation or start another thread on firearms training!

 

[CB Jones]

So these fireams instructors are signing of on guys as competent. But don't believe that they really are.

I mean at what point in a police officers career will they be expected to have to use the weapon they have done 20 hours on?

You are making a lot of assumptions.

20 hours of training during the academy plus you have to show competency and pass qualification for post certification.

You then have to pass that qualification every year...failure to pass and you aren't allowed to carry.

Plus training throughout the year. My agency requires 8 hours of training every quarter.

Also add-in simmunition training (live force on force training) plus video simulation training.

Plus many cops enjoy shooting and spend a lot of free time target sbooting.

 

[JP3]

Are you saying in your Aikido training that you have "free sparring" anything goes kind've like mma with Aikido. Or do you mean you take a technique, learn it, apply it against a non-resisting opponent then slowly amp up the level of resistance from the uke without totally going into a free sparring methodology?

The former, after the latter when the people are able to withstand it. I'll explain.

I'm a weird creature for my school and students. Nobody, even the older guy working with the students in my place who outranks me in Tomiki aikido has the cross-genre experience that I have. I'm not saying I'm unique in the world, or even in my town, but in my school so far (this school is only 6 years old) the only other arts present (outside of myself) are a bit of TKD. About 10 years ago at my previous place, we had everything from BJJ, Krav, kung fu (forget which style), Shotokan karate, judo etc. We'd work on something, then work upwards th through the resistance until going nearly full-speed or nearly full power (trying to avoid both so as to not have people leaving for the hospital). But yes, using the aikido against a freestyle attack from the opponent after an initial start position. We ... were... training trying to learn a specific thing, not to just have an MMA match.

It is very useful, and illuminating to think you've got something down, only to catch a foot in the face.

 

[drop bear]

All the firearm instructors I know including those at the academy would tell you to regularly get instruction and then invest in more training. Not just a one off and you are all set!

Congratulations. You just became me.

 

[drop bear]

You are making a lot of assumptions.

20 hours of training during the academy plus you have to show competency and pass qualification for post certification.

You then have to pass that qualification every year...failure to pass and you aren't allowed to carry.

Plus training throughout the year. My agency requires 8 hours of training every quarter.

Also add-in simmunition training (live force on force training) plus video simulation training.

Plus many cops enjoy shooting and spend a lot of free time target sbooting.

Well if we start a new thread we will have to test how silly these Aikido arguments sound in a different context.

 

[Steve]

Really Steve, you could have simply said, "I don't advocate resistance training above all other training tools". Rather than trying to be snarky and insulting.

not snarky... exasperation. I understand how that could look snarky, but it's genuine, head shaking, arms in the air exasperation at how you don't get it. Let's be real here. If I said, "I don't advocate resistance training (a term I honestly don't believe I've ever used) above all other training tools," I don't think you'd believe me. I mean, you have already said in this thread that this is something you think ive been saying contuously to the point it's trying your patience. What the hell, Brian?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well Steve, that goes for both of us. I am exasperated as well!

 

[Steve]

Well Steve, that goes for both of us. I am exasperated as well!

So, let's try this. I invite you to reread my posts now that you know that application is not code for BJJ or MMA. And then maybe you will better understand my perspective. If you have questions, I'm happy to answer them.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. I have come up with a bit of an idea of how to explain this.

Say you want to do a wrist lock. And instead of just doing it for the joy of wrist locking people you want to use this for self defence.

Now you cant really train this lock because it rips the arm out of its socket or something. But you have drilled it and are pretty confident with it. And your instructor says it works and your friends says it looks cool.

Now in walks a nasty MMA hater and says "before you get anywhere near my wrist I am going to punch you in the face because I hate Aikido and love face punching."

Well you say "I have atemi which is Aikido for face punching. So I can defend punches and deliver my own which will get me to that wrist"

Well guess what you can test and refine that. That is called boxing. That is called MMA, that is called getting a set of five ounce gloves on and seeing if you can get anywhere near securing that arm.

Now you have spent this time and are a decent striker and you can actually touch a guys wrist in some sort of semblance of a real fight. You dont have to keep complaining he is hitting you wrong And that on the street it will be different. However he hits you. You have the skill to evade punches throw punches and touch that wrist.

Now MMA hater comes back and says" Thats groovy but I am still not just giving you that lock. I will use my amazing MMA technique called defending it."

And you say. "Well bugger. There must be a way I can find out how to get that arm keep it and screw your base up so I can actually have a chance at making the wrist lock work."

well funnily enough. There is wrestling, BJJ, sub westling. And all these other methods of seeing if you can control any variables that will either let that wristlock work or make that lock fail.

What I read is it is all about the lock.

Thanks bruce. Loved you in romeo must die by the way.

Now if you dont consider all these variables and get them in order in some manner. No matter how good you wrist lock is you have a crappy wrist lock.

Sorry I would love for there to be another easier way. But I just dont see one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not sure how you would functionally apply a martial art that avoids resistance.

That's part of what I've been trying to explain. Now, NGA (the way I understand it, anyway), is different from Ueshiba's Aikido (the way I understand it). Only part of what we do would be considered "Aikido" by most of those training Ueshiba's art. So, perhaps this will provide a means of understanding.

When I find resistance, I have 3 choices:

• Meet the resistance with overwhelming force (an option in NGA that seems to me is outside the core of Ueshiba's art) to meet my goal of ending the attack. This can be a strike, hard leverage, etc.
• Use something like hard leverage to move past the resistance (an option that might be on the edge of Ueshiba's art).
• Bypass the resistance and move to a technique that works where the resistance currently isn't (what I perceive as being closer to the core of Ueshiba's art).

That third option is the preferred option in NGA, and that's what we share with Ueshiba's art. It is entirely possible to overcome almost any attack that way. We often resort to the other options out of expediency, and as a recovery when we make an error. They are a convenience, but actually open up fewer options (in our toolbox) than the third option.

 

[Steve]

For the record, I don't want anyone to think I'm anti-resistance training. Lol. I just think there needs to be something beyond resistance training, and that's actually doing the thing as intended. Whatever that thing is.

 

[jobo]

Ok. I have come up with a bit of an idea of how to explain this.

Say you want to do a wrist lock. And instead of just doing it for the joy of wrist locking people you want to use this for self defence.

Now you cant really train this lock because it rips the arm out of its socket or something. But you have drilled it and are pretty confident with it. And your instructor says it works and your friends says it looks cool.

Now in walks a nasty MMA hater and says "before you get anywhere near my wrist I am going to punch you in the face because I hate Aikido and love face punching."

Well you say "I have atemi which is Aikido for face punching. So I can defend punches and deliver my own which will get me to that wrist"

Well guess what you can test and refine that. That is called boxing. That is called MMA, that is called getting a set of five ounce gloves on and seeing if you can get anywhere near securing that arm.

Now you have spent this time and are a decent striker and you can actually touch a guys wrist in some sort of semblance of a real fight. You dont have to keep complaining he is hitting you wrong And that on the street it will be different. However he hits you. You have the skill to evade punches throw punches and touch that wrist.

Now MMA hater comes back and says" Thats groovy but I am still not just giving you that lock. I will use my amazing MMA technique called defending it."

And you say. "Well bugger. There must be a way I can find out how to get that arm keep it and screw your base up so I can actually have a chance at making the wrist lock work."

well funnily enough. There is wrestling, BJJ, sub westling. And all these other methods of seeing if you can control any variables that will either let that wristlock work or make that lock fail.

What I read is it is all about the lock.

Thanks bruce. Loved you in romeo must die by the way.

Now if you dont consider all these variables and get them in order in some manner. No matter how good you wrist lock is you have a crappy wrist lock.

Sorry I would love for there to be another easier way. But I just dont see one.

but all these what ifs always seem to depend on your opponent being a derange but highly skilled Mma exponent. They must make up an exceedingly small percentage of the population . Yet on here they seem to be round every corner just itching to attack aikidio people on the flimsiest of excuses. They are to the most part pycotic killing machines. They will win against most arts. Even if you trained bjj. They would still beat you up coz your not phycotic enough and haven't taken enough steroids

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. I have come up with a bit of an idea of how to explain this.

Say you want to do a wrist lock. And instead of just doing it for the joy of wrist locking people you want to use this for self defence.

Now you cant really train this lock because it rips the arm out of its socket or something. But you have drilled it and are pretty confident with it. And your instructor says it works and your friends says it looks cool.

Now in walks a nasty MMA hater and says "before you get anywhere near my wrist I am going to punch you in the face because I hate Aikido and love face punching."

Well you say "I have atemi which is Aikido for face punching. So I can defend punches and deliver my own which will get me to that wrist"

Well guess what you can test and refine that. That is called boxing. That is called MMA, that is called getting a set of five ounce gloves on and seeing if you can get anywhere near securing that arm.

Now you have spent this time and are a decent striker and you can actually touch a guys wrist in some sort of semblance of a real fight. You dont have to keep complaining he is hitting you wrong And that on the street it will be different. However he hits you. You have the skill to evade punches throw punches and touch that wrist.

Now MMA hater comes back and says" Thats groovy but I am still not just giving you that lock. I will use my amazing MMA technique called defending it."

And you say. "Well bugger. There must be a way I can find out how to get that arm keep it and screw your base up so I can actually have a chance at making the wrist lock work."

well funnily enough. There is wrestling, BJJ, sub westling. And all these other methods of seeing if you can control any variables that will either let that wristlock work or make that lock fail.

What I read is it is all about the lock.

Thanks bruce. Loved you in romeo must die by the way.

Now if you dont consider all these variables and get them in order in some manner. No matter how good you wrist lock is you have a crappy wrist lock.

Sorry I would love for there to be another easier way. But I just dont see one.

Ah, I think I see part of the difference you and I have in some of our discussions, DB. You see, the lock (in most aikido arts), isn't the point, at all. If that MMA guy says "I won't let you have that lock" then I won't even try for the lock. Why? Because he knows it's coming, and if he resists it, he has to open up something else. I'd be looking for the "something else". Now, if he's better than me, or just hits better than I defend strikes, I'll end up on the worst end of that. But that's about a difference in skill. If my skill at defending strikes equals or exceeds his ability to deliver strikes, then there's a real chance I'll be able to find a technique he's open for.

I've only talked strikes in this, obviously. For this example, I've just followed your post. He might also go for a double-leg takedown, and the logic is the same there: his attack skill on that thing versus my skill at defending against it. And, of course, there's also his ability to defend against whatever technique I choose, assuming he can perceive it before it's too late. But that's all a matter of comparative skill, not the functionality of the technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think training methodology has a large part to play, but its not the only requirement or even actually important at all in some circumstances.

let's take soccer as an example, every one can play soccer, its easy. You try to kick the ball to team mate and failing that kick it in the general direction of the opponents goal. You've got that simple concept and your a soccer player. Now some people will never get any better no matter who coaches them and for how long. They have a certain aptitude and that's it. Now obviously if you can get the other team to all stand still, you can convince them they are better than they actually are.

conversely you can take another player, give him bad coaching and his natural abilities will see him through, he may not be as good as he could be, but maybe his is

as a soccer player I am or at least was quite good, no fancy ball skills needed, I could run faster than most, and tackle like a dumper truck. No amount of coaching would turn me in a skilled midfield player. It was pointless even trying. It's much the same with ma, nothing will ever give me a good side kick, nothing. But who cares when I have a knee. High round house that will cut your leg off

I disagree with the premise, unless I'm misunderstanding you. Let's say I take a student and train them the best possible side kick (technically speaking), but they only ever train either against a heavy bag or against a person doing a very predictable, repetitive pattern. You take an equally capable student, and teach them the best possible side kick, adding in nothing but a randomly moving opponent who will actually try to block or dodge. In the end, your student's kick will almost certainly be more usable than mine. Why? The training method. Your training method brought more variety and adaptability (and reality) to the side kick skill.