Aikido hate

[JP3]

i will surely disappoint you at some point.

Honestly, I may have misread your initial point. It's not, "that guy is doing an armbar," that is concerning. It's how that example can be used or misused to validate one's own training model.

Simply put, it's what comes after identifying a technique, around here. In judo it's called x, and in aikido, it's called y. In budo taijutsu, it's called z. See? All styles are awesome, and can't we all get along?

I'm all for getting along, and I can agree with identifying techniques. But an armbar in bjj is taught differently than an armbar in budo taijutsu. Even different from judo. The setups, the feints, the strategies, and the execution are all going to be different, even among close cousins like judo and BJJ. The technique may be identical, but that's the least important part of the equation.

So, when I see someone post a video and say, see? Aikido/judo/BJJ works because YouTube, I'm interested in seeing if these other intangibles are present. Without that context, you don't have enough information to evaluate the video. For example, in a video where a guy does an armbar, is there enough there to know if it's BJJ or aikido or ninjutsu? If not, you can't presume it's validation of them all. That's questionable logic.

And this even more recent trend to referring to things as "like" (aikido-like) as though that's validation. Forget about it.

I disappoint myself all the time, so that's no big deal.

I think I finally am understanding. See, even the deepest, darkest cave can have a candle lit within.

You do armbar. I do armbar. They are both different, yet both reside in the set of things called armbars. The fact that we both call what we did, and what the other one of us just did, as armbars is not a quality comment on the armbars themselves. Mine sucked. Yours stretched out Tito Ortiz's arm to look as long as his legs (not a tremendous change, I grant you), but both still remain armbars.

But, if someone sees my horrible one, and goes, man I need to do that armbr like that guy, that was awesome!... but it's not... then they create for themselves a problem. For me... I'm OK with that person making a bad judgment about the efficacy of what they are learning.... as long as they're not my student (caveat). If we become concerned as teachers with everyone else's training model and pedagogical approaches (I suppose unless you are in a big association like USJA where there is a good reason for quality assurance modeling) I think we're aspiring too high for something we could in reasonable probability achieve.

And, some training models are anathema to others, intrinsically. I just had a funny thought of the training sessions in Rocky IV as applied to a Tai Chi class (like the cool videos of the old folks in the park, all moving in unison for that day's wake-up practice. Which some of those people have been doihng for going past 50 years now....). That's oil & water.

Shoot, my own, "Anyone have a question?" I say every class after showing something either old or new is anathema to some... hmm... people. I'd say arts, but that's not really accurate. Some people do not like, nor do they want, an open, questioning environment which revels in expirementation like I/we do.

You also said, "But an armbar in bjj is taught differently than an armbar in budo taijutsu. Even different from judo. The setups, the feints, the strategies, and the execution are all going to be different, even among close cousins like judo and BJJ. The technique may be identical, but that's the least important part of the equation."

But, both are still armbars, right? I think you already agreed with me on this and I just kicked a deceased equine. Judo armbar isn't a BJJ armbar, though you have to actually go to class in each to figure out the subtle differences between them, imo. But the gross generalities which cause our thoughts/minds to categorize what we're talking about as "armbar" are the same, or similar enough, for the tag to fit. That being said, a person whose avocation it is to be a martial artist is best served, again in my opinion, by seeking out other "styles" (it is why they call them styles by the way) of things like what you do, and learn from why and how they do what they do. Oftentimes, even if you don't find something outright better, you find at least some valid points with which to supplement your own skill.

 

[Juany118]

Gozo Shioda was trained in aikido by a Very different Morehei Ueshiba. Adding decades of life does hat to a person. Same thing with Kenji Tomiki. I wonder which branch of aikido that instructor, the one you were havin the circular discussion with, was from?

I believe he was awarded his Dans under Yoshimitsu Yamada Sensei. My main point however was largely what you say, that things evolve however I don't see that they have diverged so far from one another.

 

[Jenna]

I agree with you, Jenna. Personally, as we discussed in your thread On Fighting, I'm flawed and I admit it as it applies to being a true aikido practitioner. If I'm asked what I do nowadays, if it is a prospective student, I tell them "aikido & judo, but I've done a lot of other things as well." And I stop. But with people who know what's what, even my own instructor pipeline, I know, and they know, I'm very much an aikijutsu person. I just enjoy the way it is possible, sometimes even easy, to end something with hardly any physical effort. You need to have skill, of course, but I still get a kick out of it.

I hope that doesn't make me a muppet.

I do not see flaw nor contradiction nor hypocrisy in fighting as Aikidoka.. individuals have choice to fight with you or me, or to walk away.. Me I do not close down an option to walk away and save face.. is rule#1 for me not to hurt with intent though I have been hurt and done the same.. no.. you are not flawed.. you are who you are.. nobody can say to you is flaw of any thing.. Anyway Zoot is my favourite muppet.. do you know Zoot? is not Kermit because he have confidence issues.. #turnoff #jennatrivia

 

[O'Malley]

I thought this was relevant as we see some aikido in a live sparring (starts around 2:20):

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In at least one of those videos the practitioner is an Aikidoka. For instance the black gentleman in that video is an Akidoka. That indicates some validity to the video being Aikido in a violent encounter. He handled his attacker easily utilizing aikido. Pretty cool right? Not cool if your argument that Aikido is unable to be used in a physical encounter though.

I also agree that different systems apply, teach and have different entries for their usage of a specific technique. That of course does invalidate the technique it just means there is a different way to accomplish the technique. Minor difference do not invalidate a technique. Nor does the training methodology invalidate it when it is successful. While set ups and entries and application may have minor differences and distinctions in the end an armbar really is just an armbar. A lever with potential damage to the elbow or control of the body.

Where people fail in on this thread is when they specifically point out that if a system does not follow the BJJ/MMA teaching model it is not good. This is simply not true. BJJ, MMA and Judo are relatively new modern sporting methods of martial training. They are not the end all be all of martial training. They were not the exclusive methodology utilized by our ancestors for conflict for just about the length of human existence. Nor was their methodology exclusively used as well. Weapons and tools were the mainstay and still are. Mind you this comes from someone with extensive BJJ training, who loves the system and 99% of the practitioner's. While I believe personally in progressive resistance and ensure that all of my students have it that does not mean it is the only training methodology that works. Personally, I have stood next to LEO's and security professionals performing takedowns, standing armbars, joint manipulations, handcuffing, etc. who had no martial training at all other than Defensive Tactics and PPCT. Most performed fine without the methodology used in BJJ. Instead, they learned a standing armbar, joint manipulation, takedown, etc. via being taught the technique and then applying said technique on a non-resisting partner. They took that training right out the door and applied it during arrests. How is this possible? Because, there is no one exclusive training methodology that works for all martial practice. I know exactly what they learned, when they learned it and how they learned it because I was there during the training and then during the arrest.

There are more than one or two or even three ways to do something. While I enjoy methodology of learning a technique, applying a technique against a non-resisting partner and then utilize the technique during resistant training. That does not mean that this is the only way to train! If you were to say training for a BJJ Tournament or MMA that you should do BJJ or MMA I would absolutely agree. If someone wants to be successful in MMA they better train with a top rate MMA coach/trainer at their gym. Could they be successful otherwise? Yes, but they increase their odds a lot if they train with a good coach.

During the last few months or so there has specifically been people trying to point out this or that on a system and then trying to fit it into only into their training methodology. My attempt to show a few videos or Aikido practitioner's or Aikido like technique is to try and restore some semblance of an even keel here to diffuse some of the art trolling that has been going on. While I have attended Aikido seminars and hosted them I am not an Aikido practitioner nor do I have a dog in the fight so to speak. However, watching a group of people trolling another art is simply not cool!

BJJ is relatively new and humans have been in conflict for a long, long, long time. We have also been very successful at I Where arguments really fall apart is when someone tries to define things as only being able to be done one way. Because we all know there are multiple ways to do just about anything. Some times there are better way's and some times there are multiple efficient ways to do anything! Martial practitioner's that are around a long time typically figure this out.

 

[Steve]

Brian, It feels a little like you're still trying to suggest that my opinions aren't okay. But honestly, I can't be sure because you're so indirect and conflict avoidant your posts are hard to understand.

I have no doubt aikido could work well if trained well. If you think otherwise, you don't get it.

As an aside, Aikido is also relatively new, as is judo, and most of the modern styles of karate.

Lastly, If you think people are trolling, Brian, you really should pm then, or report them, or something.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Oh I think I get it as your other thread pointed out Steve. I haven't totally decided if I feel the same way but I would be remiss it I didn't say I was moving in that direction.

Actually that happens all the time here Steve. (ie. people being reported for trolling) I like your posts, your opinions mostly coincide with my beliefs as well. However, the idea that there is one training methodology and it is the only way is getting old here. Myself and others have been very patient to this point.

 

[Skullpunch]

I don't hate aikido at all. I'm also impressed with the guy in O'malley's video. That said, if you ask me who would win a fight between a high level aikodo practitioner and a high level wrestler I'm still going with the wrestler 10 times out of 10.

If this qualifies as "hate" then I agree with you, aikido is very hated. Otherwise, nah, it's not hated, most of us just don't think it kicks as much *** as other styles that are more proven is all.

 

[Steve]

Oh I think I get it as your other thread pointed out Steve. I haven't totally decided if I feel the same way but I would be remiss it I didn't say I was moving in that direction.

Actually that happens all the time here Steve. (ie. people being reported for trolling) I like your posts, your opinions mostly coincide with my beliefs as well. However, the idea that there is one training methodology and it is the only way is getting old here. Myself and others have been very patient to this point.

It is the way human beings learn everything and always have. I appreciate that you have been patient, but thats actually a fact and not an opinion.

 

[Juany118]

I don't hate aikido at all. I'm also impressed with the guy in O'malley's video. That said, if you ask me who would win a fight between a high level aikodo practitioner and a high level wrestler I'm still going with the wrestler 10 times out of 10.

If this qualifies as "hate" then I agree with you, aikido is very hated. Otherwise, nah, it's not hated, most of us just don't think it kicks as much *** as other styles that are more proven is all.

I think again you place Aikido under too large an umbrella. You have to remember something, Aikido evolved greatly as O'Sensei aged. You have the pre-war/immediately post war Aikido that is still VERY close to Aiki-Jujutsu (meaning entry with strikes, joint breaks vs locks etc. to the point I have heard those who study those lineages "evil Aikidoka". You then have what people see as "stereotypical" Aikido, and then those that put what some consider an overemphasis on the concept of Ki. In short there is no "universal" Aikido, anymore than there is Karate, Ju Jujutsu etc.

 

[Buka]

My name is Buka and I am an armbaraholic.

And I've learned from Aikido guys.

 

[drop bear]

First example that comes to mind is people training at the shooting range for self-protection (or even the police). Not all of them go to test their skills in paintball matches, yet this training proves valuable when they have to actually shoot someone, even though they may hope to never have to use it.

One can train technique, timing, distance, position, balance and whatnot without having to compete in MMA.



Here's a simple example:

Shooting is a different skill to fighting. And can be trained solo and static.

You don't really need the instruction for shooting either.

That throw is an example of training without resistance. If the other guy wanted to stop him the outcome of that throw would change. Now as people have said if you wanted to just train that throw in that manner for the joy of it. That is fine.

If you ever wanted to use that throw in someone who doesn't like you. You should compete for it at some stage.

 

[drop bear]

While I don't agree with the vilification of MMA, I agree with the general idea here, Jobo. I think a lot of folks I've trained with just wouldn't be interested in delivering the kind of punishment that often is necessary in MMA (as it is seen by those not actively training in it), unless someone puts them in a position to have that need (an attack/physical altercation).

What punishment? Even in MMA fights people don't generally walk off with broken limbs.

We have had the submissions vs limb destruction convo.

Submissions are significantly nicer.

If you followed the concept of peace in self defense. You would do sub wrestling not Aikido.

 

[drop bear]

I disappoint myself all the time, so that's no big deal.

I think I finally am understanding. See, even the deepest, darkest cave can have a candle lit within.

You do armbar. I do armbar. They are both different, yet both reside in the set of things called armbars. The fact that we both call what we did, and what the other one of us just did, as armbars is not a quality comment on the armbars themselves. Mine sucked. Yours stretched out Tito Ortiz's arm to look as long as his legs (not a tremendous change, I grant you), but both still remain armbars.

But, if someone sees my horrible one, and goes, man I need to do that armbr like that guy, that was awesome!... but it's not... then they create for themselves a problem. For me... I'm OK with that person making a bad judgment about the efficacy of what they are learning.... as long as they're not my student (caveat). If we become concerned as teachers with everyone else's training model and pedagogical approaches (I suppose unless you are in a big association like USJA where there is a good reason for quality assurance modeling) I think we're aspiring too high for something we could in reasonable probability achieve.

And, some training models are anathema to others, intrinsically. I just had a funny thought of the training sessions in Rocky IV as applied to a Tai Chi class (like the cool videos of the old folks in the park, all moving in unison for that day's wake-up practice. Which some of those people have been doihng for going past 50 years now....). That's oil & water.

Shoot, my own, "Anyone have a question?" I say every class after showing something either old or new is anathema to some... hmm... people. I'd say arts, but that's not really accurate. Some people do not like, nor do they want, an open, questioning environment which revels in expirementation like I/we do.

You also said, "But an armbar in bjj is taught differently than an armbar in budo taijutsu. Even different from judo. The setups, the feints, the strategies, and the execution are all going to be different, even among close cousins like judo and BJJ. The technique may be identical, but that's the least important part of the equation."

But, both are still armbars, right? I think you already agreed with me on this and I just kicked a deceased equine. Judo armbar isn't a BJJ armbar, though you have to actually go to class in each to figure out the subtle differences between them, imo. But the gross generalities which cause our thoughts/minds to categorize what we're talking about as "armbar" are the same, or similar enough, for the tag to fit. That being said, a person whose avocation it is to be a martial artist is best served, again in my opinion, by seeking out other "styles" (it is why they call them styles by the way) of things like what you do, and learn from why and how they do what they do. Oftentimes, even if you don't find something outright better, you find at least some valid points with which to supplement your own skill.

Or otherwise. It seems that instead of putting the effort in to make their own stuff functional they have just thrown their name on everything that even looks similar.

Yes MMA does Aikido. And it does it better. Yes there are Aikido people in the competition curcit. And they can throw out Aikido moves and make them work.

So if someone can't make Aikido work. And you want it to. You need to change your method.

If you don't know then you need to change you method.

 

[drop bear]

My name is Buka and I am an armbaraholic.

And I've learned from Aikido guys.

Different argument though. If you have a honest training method you can.

If you fill your head with baggage you are shooting yourself in the foot for functionality.

All these misguided conclusions that are holding people back.

 

[Steve]

Oh I think I get it as your other thread pointed out Steve. I haven't totally decided if I feel the same way but I would be remiss it I didn't say I was moving in that direction.

Actually that happens all the time here Steve. (ie. people being reported for trolling) I like your posts, your opinions mostly coincide with my beliefs as well. However, the idea that there is one training methodology and it is the only way is getting old here. Myself and others have been very patient to this point.

Brian, I'm concerned that you think I'm a "competition above all" guy. I'm really not. I'm an "application" guy. There are a lot of great ways to apply techniques. Not just competition. Where competition has a leg up on other means to apply training is that it doesn't require you to be in a violent profession or engage in high risk behaviors. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a professionally violent person could apply aikido enough to develop real expertise.

You're so funny. You even say in your post that they took what they learned and... what did they do? They "applied it during arrests." What? Huh? They did what during arrests? That transfer from theory to application is crucial. A cop probably has opportunity to develop real skill. Joe Blow, the accountant, probably doesn't.

When you talk about the BJJ methodology, frankly, you're completely missing the point. Or at least, you're missing my point. And I believe you don't really have any interest in understanding it. Maybe you do, but that's not my impression. You continually present a straw man (an actual straw man in the logical fallacy sense, not how you guys generally use the term), tell me that's what I said, and then you make some half baked interjection, in bold and usually underlined, that has nothing to do with what I wrote. It's frustrating, frankly. And when I try to explain the difference between what I meant and what you think I meant, you call in reinforcements, and say very insulting things such as that I'm arguing just to argue.

So, when you say you're losing your patience, I have very little sympathy, honestly.

 

[JP3]

Or otherwise. It seems that instead of putting the effort in to make their own stuff functional they have just thrown their name on everything that even looks similar.

Yes MMA does Aikido. And it does it better. Yes there are Aikido people in the competition curcit. And they can throw out Aikido moves and make them work.

So if someone can't make Aikido work. And you want it to. You need to change your method.

If you don't know then you need to change you method.

But, they have to "find out" that they don't know, first... right?

BTW I think you'll give Fried Rice n aneurysm saying that "Yes MMA does Aikido. And it does it better."

 

[jobo]

Brian, It feels a little like you're still trying to suggest that my opinions aren't okay. But honestly, I can't be sure because you're so indirect and conflict avoidant your posts are hard to understand.

I have no doubt aikido could work well if trained well. If you think otherwise, you don't get it.

As an aside, Aikido is also relatively new, as is judo, and most of the modern styles of karate.

Lastly, If you think people are trolling, Brian, you really should pm then, or report them, or something.

I think the styles are as old as time its self and more or less universal to all countries
here for example is the traditional British marshal art , in which I was first trained as a five year old

 

[JP3]

Brian, I'm concerned that you think I'm a "competition above all" guy. I'm really not. I'm an "application" guy. There are a lot of great ways to apply techniques. Not just competition. Where competition has a leg up on other means to apply training is that it doesn't require you to be in a violent profession or engage in high risk behaviors. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a professionally violent person could apply aikido enough to develop real expertise.

You're so funny. You even say in your post that they took what they learned and... what did they do? They "applied it during arrests." What? Huh? They did what during arrests? That transfer from theory to application is crucial. A cop probably has opportunity to develop real skill. Joe Blow, the accountant, probably doesn't

For the record, I'm an application-guy myself. My theories and conclusions on how to be a "better" application guy have... grown, some would say mutated, over the past 20 years or so.

 

[Steve]

Aikido was developed in the 1920s or so.
Judo in the late 1800s (1890 or so)
Goju Ryu sometime around the 1930s.
Isshin Ryu - 1956
BJJ - Depends on when you consider it founded, but somewhere in the early 1900s. If you consider Meada the founder, in the 1915 area, or in the 1930s if you call Carlos or Helio Gracie the founders.