Aikido hate

[drop bear]

But, they have to "find out" that they don't know, first... right?

BTW I think you'll give Fried Rice n aneurysm saying that "Yes MMA does Aikido. And it does it better."

People open the door for this when they think their evidence has to equal their conclusion.

Here is Aikido in the real world so therefore my training is validated.

And not.

Here is Aikido in the real world so why can't I make this stuff work.

I was on facebook just then and we were mocking the Dillman systems. And the thing is, from inside those systems people are convinced that what they are training is the business.

I have trained in those systems to a greater or lesser extent and I have heard the reasoning.

And the Dilman system is a good example. So as an idea. I can say my system works. And then show you me putting the cripple on. And we assume I have the skills.

But what happens If I don't get to pick the guy I validate my system on?

 

[Steve]

For the record, I'm an application-guy myself. My theories and conclusions on how to be a "better" application guy have... grown, some would say mutated, over the past 20 years or so.

It's not rocket science. But if it were, there would still be application (because... rocket scientists build actual rockets.)

This goes back a bit, JP3. I suggested at one point that guys who don't apply techniques, and then teach those techniques to other people, aren't really qualified to do so. And the converse, if you want to become an expert at something, you must apply it. This gets into identifying actual, measurable outcomes, and then testing for proficiency based upon these outcomes.

Add to this my suggestion that 'self defense' is a term that is defined opportunistically to either support or discount literally any position and some feathers get ruffled.

 

[Steve]

But, they have to "find out" that they don't know, first... right?

BTW I think you'll give Fried Rice n aneurysm saying that "Yes MMA does Aikido. And it does it better."

Haha. I can see the vein throbbing!

 

[drop bear]

Haha. I can see the vein throbbing!

Some of the ideas that have been put out on this thread. I feel I am the one being trolled.

 

[drop bear]

It's not rocket science. But if it were, there would still be application (because... rocket scientists build actual rockets.)

This goes back a bit, JP3. I suggested at one point that guys who don't apply techniques, and then teach those techniques to other people, aren't really qualified to do so. And the converse, if you want to become an expert at something, you must apply it. This gets into identifying actual, measurable outcomes, and then testing for proficiency based upon these outcomes.

Add to this my suggestion that 'self defense' is a term that is defined opportunistically to either support or discount literally any position and some feathers get ruffled.

I mean what happens if i just roll up to your gym and say "Show me the power of your martial arts"

Do I get a demonstration with the instructor on a student?

Or leave in an ambulance?

 

[JP3]

But what happens If I don't get to pick the guy I validate my system on?

You get outed as believing your own bullsh*t. It is a painful learning experience, and one hopes that it happens in/on the friendly confines of a training facility, not "out there."

 

[JP3]

It's not rocket science. But if it were, there would still be application (because... rocket scientists build actual rockets.)

This goes back a bit, JP3. I suggested at one point that guys who don't apply techniques, and then teach those techniques to other people, aren't really qualified to do so. And the converse, if you want to become an expert at something, you must apply it. This gets into identifying actual, measurable outcomes, and then testing for proficiency based upon these outcomes.

Add to this my suggestion that 'self defense' is a term that is defined opportunistically to either support or discount literally any position and some feathers get ruffled.

As I think it was Drop that said that if you change the definition of the term you change the whole argument, or something like that. There is a reason that a good contract has a "definitions" section.

I can attest that certain professors in a certain field, while knowledgeable, are not experts whatsoever. The knowledge of the thing, while helpful to understanding and important, is not in and of itself "useful." One must use a thing in order for it to become useful, yes?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You're so funny. You even say in your post that they took what they learned and... what did they do? They "applied it during arrests." What? Huh? They did what during arrests? That transfer from theory to application is crucial. A cop probably has opportunity to develop real skill. Joe Blow, the accountant, probably doesn't.

They took what they learned in technique training and then applied it. They didn't use the methodology that you continuous seem to put out there. They had no resistance training in other words. Therein lies the difference in what you are continuously putting out there Steve. They, learned just like an Aikidoist learns in the dojo. Ouch...

 

[JP3]

I mean what happens if i just roll up to your gym and say "Show me the power of your martial arts"

Do I get a demonstration with the instructor on a student?

Or leave in an ambulance?

At my place, you'd get a demo on you,but that's just the simple answer, not a challenge so don't go boarding Qantas. I've had this happen. Well, not the guy rolling up and saying, "Show me the power of your martial arts" Who would do that except on a late-night Kung Fu movie? But, I have had it happen, sort of.

This happened last year. No wait, this is 2017, so it was 2 years ago but we were still at the same location as now. The instructor from the TKD school literally in the same building complex came in, Korean guy, and literally asked my first student who greeted him, "Does your aikido work? I would like to see some of it." He had just stepped off of his own mat and walked down the sidewalk, in his dobok, so I was wondering... "What time is it and what channel am I tuned to right now?" Frayed & graying black belt and everything.

Long story short, I talked with the guy, and he was looking for something effective, but which would not offend the local school district's police policies on defensive violence. Right now, in most of the US it is deplorable, if a kid swings at your kid, and your kid gets hit, then hits back... both kids get sent to in-school kid jail. Sometimes, even if your kid is not hit, both kids go to the same in-school jail. So, he'd found for himself a situation where his own hard-won skillset was not really appropriate and useful and it was tearing him up.

So, I ended up using a corner of the mat and giving him some simple, non-striking things that he could quickly show his son in case of the usual types of bully attacks like the bear hug and the suckerpunch (assuming he saw it coming). Just movement based stuff and stuff anyone with: A) a clear head (he was really torn up about it); and b) some background in a grappling system... would know.

One of my buds takes his girls to a nearby judo school I'm loosely affiliated with and I pointed him at that school. He stopped by about a season later and thanked me, his son wasn't having the problems he'd been having any longer.

Accepting the challenge of "Your stuff don't work" can be done in a de-escalating manner, just like with any other type of... engagement. Attitude mostly. Like when a guy's all drunked himself out and the girl has left the bar with the other guy and all he really wants, he thinks, is to hit someone. Talking that guy off of his personal cliff is in the same family of skills.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Shooting is a different skill to fighting. And can be trained solo and static.

You don't really need the instruction for shooting either.

No firearms instructor in the world or shooting enthusiast believes this drop bear. People pay thousands of dollars regularly on shooting instruction. Shooting is a physical skill that anyone who takes up for safety reasons should get some instruction in before they start. As a physical skill they should do it regularly so the skill set remains ingrained. Shooting can as you mentioned be trained solo, static, in groups, under pressure such as timing, shoot house or under pressure such as force on force training with airsoft. Shooting is very dynamic and a skill set that takes a lot of training in to be any good at.

 

[drop bear]

No firearms instructor in the world or shooting enthusiast believes this drop bear. People pay thousands of dollars regularly on shooting instruction. Shooting is a physical skill that anyone who takes up for safety reasons should get some instruction in before they start. As a physical skill they should do it regularly so the skill set remains ingrained. Shooting can as you mentioned be trained solo, static, in groups, under pressure such as timing or under pressure such as force on force training with airsoft. Shooting is very dynamic and a skill set that takes a lot of training in to be any good at.

Australian police mandate 30 rounds a year. For real world self defence.

Thats it.

 

[JP3]

They took what they learned in technique training and then applied it. They didn't use the methodology that you continuous seem to put out there. They had no resistance training in other words. Therein lies the difference in what you are continuously putting out there Steve. They, learned just like an Aikidoist learns in the dojo. Ouch...

I'm not able to follow that... are you saying that aikidoists don't use resistance training? We do. Well, at least I do and the people from whom I learned it do. The whole progressive resistance paradigm. first complete compliance, then No resistance, then no energy, then no movement, then actively not moving, then actively seeking to defeat the technique, then actively trying to reverse the technique and finally actively attempting to counter-attack with whatever is to hand. Each of these ... levels has its own internal power/speed/effort level. Wind it all the way up to Full-tilt boogie and things get messy.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Australian police mandate 30 rounds a year. For real world self defence.

Thats it.

On top of after going through an academy which included intensive training.

 

[drop bear]

On top of after going through an academy which included intensive training.

I know a couple of cops. I will find out how many hours it takes to become proficient for self defence with a pistol in the academy.

For me as a security guard I think it is a couple of days. Of intensive training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I'm not able to follow that... are you saying that aikidoists don't use resistance training? We do. Well, at least I do and the people from whom I learned it do. The whole progressive resistance paradigm. first complete compliance, then No resistance, then no energy, then no movement, then actively not moving, then actively seeking to defeat the technique, then actively trying to reverse the technique and finally actively attempting to counter-attack with whatever is to hand. Each of these ... levels has its own internal power/speed/effort level. Wind it all the way up to Full-tilt boogie and things get messy.

Are you saying in your Aikido training that you have "free sparring" anything goes kind've like mma with Aikido. Or do you mean you take a technique, learn it, apply it against a non-resisting opponent then slowly amp up the level of resistance from the uke without totally going into a free sparring methodology?

 

[Steve]

As I think it was Drop that said that if you change the definition of the term you change the whole argument, or something like that. There is a reason that a good contract has a "definitions" section.

I can attest that certain professors in a certain field, while knowledgeable, are not experts whatsoever. The knowledge of the thing, while helpful to understanding and important, is not in and of itself "useful." One must use a thing in order for it to become useful, yes?

Bless you. I'm tearing up with joy.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I know a couple of cops. I will find out how many hours it takes to become proficient for self defence with a pistol in the academy.

When I went through the academy here in the states I believe we had around twenty hours to become moderately proficient. Most officers I know then attended further training even when a department only demanded quarterly or yearly qualifying.

 

[drop bear]

When I went through the academy here in the states I believe we had around twenty hours to become moderately proficient. Most officers I know then attended further training even when a department only demanded quarterly or yearly qualifying.

Is 20 hours a lot as compared to training martial arts?

 

[jobo]

At my place, you'd get a demo on you,but that's just the simple answer, not a challenge so don't go boarding Qantas. I've had this happen. Well, not the guy rolling up and saying, "Show me the power of your martial arts" Who would do that except on a late-night Kung Fu movie? But, I have had it happen, sort of.

This happened last year. No wait, this is 2017, so it was 2 years ago but we were still at the same location as now. The instructor from the TKD school literally in the same building complex came in, Korean guy, and literally asked my first student who greeted him, "Does your aikido work? I would like to see some of it." He had just stepped off of his own mat and walked down the sidewalk, in his dobok, so I was wondering... "What time is it and what channel am I tuned to right now?" Frayed & graying black belt and everything.

Long story short, I talked with the guy, and he was looking for something effective, but which would not offend the local school district's police policies on defensive violence. Right now, in most of the US it is deplorable, if a kid swings at your kid, and your kid gets hit, then hits back... both kids get sent to in-school kid jail. Sometimes, even if your kid is not hit, both kids go to the same in-school jail. So, he'd found for himself a situation where his own hard-won skillset was not really appropriate and useful and it was tearing him up.

So, I ended up using a corner of the mat and giving him some simple, non-striking things that he could quickly show his son in case of the usual types of bully attacks like the bear hug and the suckerpunch (assuming he saw it coming). Just movement based stuff and stuff anyone with: A) a clear head (he was really torn up about it); and b) some background in a grappling system... would know.

One of my buds takes his girls to a nearby judo school I'm loosely affiliated with and I pointed him at that school. He stopped by about a season later and thanked me, his son wasn't having the problems he'd been having any longer.

Accepting the challenge of "Your stuff don't work" can be done in a de-escalating manner, just like with any other type of... engagement. Attitude mostly. Like when a guy's all drunked himself out and the girl has left the bar with the other guy and all he really wants, he thinks, is to hit someone. Talking that guy off of his personal cliff is in the same family of skills.

yea its much the same here, the victim gets punished usually instead of the bully if they hit back. My nephew about 9 was being bullied extensively by a big kid ay school, his parents went to the school umpteen times nothing. So I said nothing about the bullying, but do you fancy learning tkd. He did, so we did that for about 6months . Then his parents get a call. He has tkd kick the bully in the face and broke his nose. All sorts of trouble and suspension's I got the blame for encouraging him. But the big kid never went with in kicking distance of him again. 8 years later we were parking up at the local shops and some guy walks past and complains about my parking, I was about to reply when my nephew pipes up, talk to me like that and il break your nose, and I thought my work here is done.

 

[Steve]

They took what they learned in technique training and then applied it. They didn't use the methodology that you continuous seem to put out there. They had no resistance training in other words. Therein lies the difference in what you are continuously putting out there Steve. They, learned just like an Aikidoist learns in the dojo. Ouch...

this may blow your mind, but I've never argued for resistance training to exclusion of other training tools. If you think I have, I either haven't explained it well or you just don't get it... maybe a little of both. ive actually said the opposite many, many times. Weird, I know, because you think you get it. And it's inconceivable to you that you don't.