Aikido against a boxer

[drop bear]

I agree with the first sentence. I'm not sure how that relates to one part of a system proving another part. I mean, I see your point about making a working assumption from one part. That's a useful place to start from until you have better info. But if you assessed my striking ability based on my groundwork, the resulting assumption would be highly flawed.

I am addressing the whole system by the parts I can prove.

 

[Martial D]

I don't mean that I train with boxers and when things are getting technical it's not easy to explain verbally....
I study and practice in every possible way but it's mostly the approach that matters. It doesn't matter how strong or fast someone attacks or how big he is. The techniques, should they be executed correctly must be able to work against anything since you don't react, you simply become one with what the attacker is giving you, whether it is committed or not, and that's not a theoretical, philosophical mumbo jumbo, it's tangible fighting strategy...

Strategy is only tangible if and when it can be executed.

Till then, it's talk.

 

[Ryback]

If you don't train with boxers and you don't spar then you by definition do not study or practice in every possible way.

And with no disrespect to the art or it's practitioners, the only time I've ever seen the techniques executed correctly enough to work "against anything" is when it's been choreographed...

I've seen plenty of instances where one aikidoka pretends to do what they think are boxing (or any other art) moves and another defends to demonstrate how it works.

Honestly, no word of a lie, I would love to spar against a skilled aikidoka to play with my interpretation of TKD and their aikido, but I don't see it happening.

Have you ever studied Aikido?? Or is your experience only what you think you understand watching YouTube videos?
I don't like choreographed techniques and you don't have to study with boxers in order to be effective... Every attacker is unique, there are differences in the training people may have, their size, strength, agility... So, do you have to train with every person all around the world?
In Martial arts you are sharpening your skills and by studying your art, not everyone else's... And if it's done right, it should work. Any failure is not a failure of the art, it's a personal failure of the practitioner and that's as far as we can prove.
Even if I would spar with you and lost that wouldn't mean that Aikido doesn't work against your training, only that my Aikido skills are not enough to beat you...

 

[Ryback]

Actually it does. But maybe not the way you think. No offense intended but I have never met an akidoka who new how to punch. A munetsuki is not a punch it's a thrust. They have totally different mechanics. So it's not the strength or speed that actually matters but rather the mechanics that are created by proper punching with strength and speed. A munetsuki thrust doesn't come anywhere near the kinetic force generated by a boxers punch. Not even in the same ball park. Second factor is the speed a good boxers punch will be like a 100 mile an hour fast ball coming at you, combine that with the fact that boxers punch from half (or less ) the distance aikidoka are familiar with and that fast ball punch is going to have hit you and retracted ready to hit again before you even acknowledge that you got hit. Third factor is the angles of a punch VS munetsuki. If you train against a tsuki the angle will be different, your muscle memory will react to that angle even though this time it's a punch coming from a different angle. Now remember that speed? Well your eyes will not have time to differentiate that angle. All this compounds into a very difficult situation for aikidoka. if you only train your technique against the three standard aiki strikes.

EDIT: I forgot the biggest factor is boxers (and karate for that matter) train to punch and maintain their center. They are not going to get drawn out and extended.

I have met many aikidoka who can punch and kick very effectively. We do that in Aikido. Nice, big, circular moves after a munetsuki that stays in mid air forever in order for the Tori to apply technique to it may be common in Aikido but it's not the way every aikidoka studies his art.
And even though Aikido atemi or Keri waza is certainly not what you are watching on most Aikido demos on YouTube, I still insist that speed, strength, intensity or any other aspect of the attack doesn't matter at all.
That is, in my opinion at least, what the Aikido blending and harmony is all about. Moving in accord with any attack, now matter how strong or fast, becoming "one" with the attacker regardless of his skills, size or strength or agility.
That is according to my experience the basic Aiki principle and that's how I study the art.
Does every aikidoka study that way? Well probably not, and I don't say that my way is the only way. Everyone is making their own choices. And that goes for every martial art or any other aspect of life...

 

[Ryback]

Strategy is only tangible if and when it can be executed.

Till then, it's talk.

I agree but that's what a forum is about, talking. The rest happens on the mat and that applies to everyone I think...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Which if there is evidence of skills in that area the statement can be made.

I don't think it can be made as some sort of hypothetical 1 up.

Tonys statement was to what i was getting at. Its fairly accepted that kali is legitimate and effective, when it comes to weapons. But i would not bet on a kali guy over a boxer in a ring, with no weapons. Its a different focus. Now, if they had weapons available, i would bet on the kali guy.

That said, i have no evidence that aikido armed works (no evidence it doesnt, but have never seen it effective for weapons). Just pointi ng out a system that does show the difference.

 

[drop bear]

Tonys statement was to what i was getting at. Its fairly accepted that kali is legitimate and effective, when it comes to weapons. But i would not bet on a kali guy over a boxer in a ring, with no weapons. Its a different focus. Now, if they had weapons available, i would bet on the kali guy.

That said, i have no evidence that aikido armed works (no evidence it doesnt, but have never seen it effective for weapons). Just pointing out a system that does show the difference.

The idea that you have to go by the evidence you have. Not the evidence you don't have took me a little while to get to. But is ultimately my point.

Have you seen a stick fighting competition by the way? That is about 2% of what Kali trains. And having done stick training you really don't need to focus on the other 98%

It was a rude shock to me every time I went live with a weapon in sparring that a whole bunch of different factors become dominant.

I mean a serious gas tank and your ability to move your arms quickly looks like a deciding factor here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am addressing the whole system by the parts I can prove.

Again, while that's a reasonable "best guess" starting point, it is as flawed as you'd expect. Still better than a guess or just optimism without reason. But you could be using the best part of a system as proof for the worst part (my striking for my stickwork, perhaps). Or you could be doing the opposite (using proof of my stickwork to evaluate my striking). In both cases, you'd be wrong, but it's still a better starting point that a guess.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you ever studied Aikido?? Or is your experience only what you think you understand watching YouTube videos?
I don't like choreographed techniques and you don't have to study with boxers in order to be effective... Every attacker is unique, there are differences in the training people may have, their size, strength, agility... So, do you have to train with every person all around the world?
In Martial arts you are sharpening your skills and by studying your art, not everyone else's... And if it's done right, it should work. Any failure is not a failure of the art, it's a personal failure of the practitioner and that's as far as we can prove.
Even if I would spar with you and lost that wouldn't mean that Aikido doesn't work against your training, only that my Aikido skills are not enough to beat you...

His point about training with boxers is that most Aikidoka won't punch like a boxer. If they attempt to - without training in boxing strikes - they are likely to deliver what looks (to other Aikidoka) like a boxer's punch, but isn't, and doesn't have the speed and power of an experienced boxer. That's not unique to Aikido, by any stretch. My students - even with some boxing-influenced punches in my curriculum - don't punch like boxers. Nor do most Karateka. That doesn't mean we can't adapt to that punch, but if none of us train with and against boxers, we don't really have the input we need to make those adaptations. If there's anything we've learned from MMA, it's that lots of adaptation is possible but doesn't happen until you consciously adapt with real input.

The "failure of the practitioner, not the art" is a specious argument, in my opinion. We can use that on both positive and negative sides in any argument to nullify any counter. If an MMA fighter defends himself in a mugging, it's because he's a special MMA fighter. If he fails, it's because he failed to develop his MMA skills to handle that situation. But aren't both of those actually ignoring whether the MMA system he trains in happens to be any good at developing those skills? Now change all those "MMA" to "Aikido" and you'll see the point. We can't just dismiss failures by attributing them to the practitioner, unless those failures are unusual for someone of their level. Nor can we attribute successes to the system, unless similar successes are common (relative to available incidences) for practitioners of similar skill.

This is an advantage competition systems have over SD systems, in gauging fighting ability. They have a place where they can at least say, "It tends to be effective in that sport context." Those of us who don't use competition don't have that, which IMO puts an onus upon us to look more skeptically at our own work.

 

[Martial D]

I agree but that's what a forum is about, talking. The rest happens on the mat and that applies to everyone I think...

If you are doing aikido training that employs real resistance and full on sparring with fully resisting opponents, then never leave that school, because you have found a unicorn.

However, if you are throwing around compliant Aki's (or..getting them to throw themselves as it were) ala traditional aikido and think that will help you much in actual fighting, you have been mislead.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you are doing aikido training that employs real resistance and full on sparring with fully resisting opponents, then never leave that school, because you have found a unicorn.

However, if you are throwing around compliant Aki's (or..getting them to throw themselves as it were) ala traditional aikido and think that will help you much in actual fighting, you have been mislead.

The term "full resisting opponent" can be a 2 edges sword.

If the moment that you try to use hip throw on your opponent, the moment that he sits down to the ground, You can wrestle with him for 20 years, you still cannot develop your hip throw. What's good if your opponent can not help you to develop MA skill?

A full resisting opponent can help you to develop combo (use one move to set up next move). He won't be able to help you to develop the first move.

 

[hoshin1600]

I still insist that speed, strength, intensity or any other aspect of the attack doesn't matter at all.

So then that's your story and your stickin to it....so the country song says...no need for me to continue the debate.

That is, in my opinion at least, what the Aikido blending and harmony is all about.

You should try " blending" with a boxer some time. I think it will be an eye opener for you.

 

[hoshin1600]

@gpseymour
I have to say I'm impressed with your openness about this topic. That's not to say you have given me any other impression over time with your posts. It's just rare to find people who can see their own systems short comings and also try to address them.

 

[drop bear]

His point about training with boxers is that most Aikidoka won't punch like a boxer. If they attempt to - without training in boxing strikes - they are likely to deliver what looks (to other Aikidoka) like a boxer's punch, but isn't, and doesn't have the speed and power of an experienced boxer. That's not unique to Aikido, by any stretch. My students - even with some boxing-influenced punches in my curriculum

May have found the trick to this by the way. I was sparring a 16 year old the other day who just lost his cool and justs started trying to take my head off.

So I was recieving strikes that were 100% speed and intensity without the weight behind them to do any real damage.

So you could do that and see if you can blend with shots coming at you fast.

 

[now disabled]

If you are doing aikido training that employs real resistance and full on sparring with fully resisting opponents, then never leave that school, because you have found a unicorn.

However, if you are throwing around compliant Aki's (or..getting them to throw themselves as it were) ala traditional aikido and think that will help you much in actual fighting, you have been mislead.

I ain't going to get into an argument with you but it fairly obvious you have issues with Aikido

If you think that all Aikidoka are thrown by them anticipating then I do have an issue with that it may look that way and yes some of the breakfalls look very good but they are being done in a way to make that happen. Don't lump that in with compliance totally

 

[Martial D]

I ain't going to get into an argument with you but it fairly obvious you have issues with Aikido

If you think that all Aikidoka are thrown by them anticipating then I do have an issue with that it may look that way and yes some of the breakfalls look very good but they are being done in a way to make that happen. Don't lump that in with compliance totally

Nope, no issues;I'm just being straight. Have you ever worked with aikido guys? How familiar are you exactly with what they do, what it is, or the philosophy behind it? You won't find any violence in an aikido studio because that runs purely against the grain of what aikido is.

It's a suplimental system for people that ALREADY know how to fight, something their O'Sensei made quite clear.

In that regard I've seen it 'work', but those that have only aikido are honestly worse off than someone that is completely untrained. There is mountains of evidence to support this.

 

[Martial D]

The term "full resisting opponent" can be a 2 edges sword.

If the moment that you try to use hip throw on your opponent, the moment that he sits down to the ground, You can wrestle with him for 20 years, you still cannot develop your hip throw. What's good if your opponent can not help you to develop MA skill?

A full resisting opponent can help you to develop combo (use one move to set up next move). He won't be able to help you to develop the first move.

I don't disagree. It's not like I'm saying skip everything but sparring, far from it. We do drills like the ones your always talking about also, and in mass volume.

But there comes a time that you need to fire up the engine and see if the thing actually runs, dig?

It's like the story of the three traditional martial artists and the pen. Ever heard that one?

 

[now disabled]

Nope, no issues;I'm just being straight. Have you ever worked with aikido guys? How familiar are you exactly with what they do, what it is, or the philosophy behind it? You won't find any violence in an aikido studio because that runs purely against the grain of what aikido is.

It's a suplimental system for people that ALREADY know how to fight, something their O'Sensei made quite clear.

In that regard I've seen it 'work', but those that have only aikido are honestly worse off than someone that is completely untrained. There is mountains of evelidence to support this.

Yes I have worked with Aikido guys lol ( I can't now )

The philosophy thing that is and had been misunderstood and kinda twisted lol and well that is as maybe but to say there no violence that I guess is down to your definition. I do grant you that it is viewed as being very stage managed etc and in a load of cases it is.

Yes I agree that Aikido is a supplementary system and it always has been. If you look at where it came from then that was how it was done so to speak. To become a "warrior" you did not just study one thing you studied many.

Ueshiba did himself as did most if not all of his deshi. Even his main influence did (Takeda) it was how it was done.

It is a very modern concept to only go to one place and then think that it is a fix all cover all.

Aikido lacks in areas for sure but that is then as it always has been for the individual to know that and in the past they did lol , it is now that folks don't

I sent my girls to a TKD school to learn to punch and kick. I taught them Aikido and to a certain extent the sword.

From Aikido they got the feeling and the movement etc etc the different mind set but from the others they got what I felt they lacked

 

[now disabled]

Do bear in mind that if you fire up the engine as you say and fully apply things like Kotegaeshi and do a full on full force irimi nage or fully applied hiji waza then things will break lol

I am not in any way calling your skills in to doubt however if I (and I can't now lol) fully fired up Kotegaeshi then your wrist would break lol

That may be why you think that it all "soft" so to speak and compliant as if the uke doesn't take it then he /she gets hurt

It is and always has been a problem of how to "cover all " in training and there is no answer really that fits all.

Ok going back in time (way back) they could test out things lol... find a criminal or a person of low class and do the "business" but those days are long gone so we have what we have and will always struggle to agree on the how to

 

[Martial D]

Do bear in mind that if you fire up the engine as you say and fully apply things like Kotegaeshi and do a full on full force irimi nage or fully applied hiji waza then things will break lol

I am not in any way calling your skills in to doubt however if I (and I can't now lol) fully fired up Kotegaeshi then your wrist would break lol

In theory. There is no evidence Ive ever seen that is the case though. In my experience (Ive worked with and even sparred with more than a few aikido trained guys) those wristlock throws only ever work if the other guy is co-operating. Show me a counter example? Can you honestly say you've ever done it to a guy that is fully fighting back?

Ever wonder why it's never happened in a cage? Oh yes, wristlocks are perfectly legal in MMA. The entire Aikido syllabus is.( the 'small joint manipulation' foul in mma only applies to two or less fingers, wrists are fair game) Yet nobody uses it. Do you not wonder why that might be?

Again, I'm not saying aikido is 'useless' persay, but you seem to have some untested beliefs at play here.