Afghanistan - Why Are We There?

[Tez3]

What? The Brits didn't occupy Ireland?

It's kind of hard to run "covert ops" without a base of operations in the mideast when you are America. And when you do you get criticized for it anyway.

No Britain didn't 'occupy' Ireland.
In 1066 the Normans invaded England, in 1169 they invaded Ireland bringing them under the same rule, the invader Normans. Theres been wars between the ruling houses of England and the Irish for centuries. But no we've never actually invaded Ireland as such. The Northern Irish chose to stay as part of the UK while Eire went independant as a republic.

The CIA seems to have managed it's operations all around the world so far.

 

[Sukerkin]

I know what Angel is trying to say tho', Tez viz that without a presence in the part of the world you want to operate in it's a lot harder to pull things off successfully.

Where the problems lies with dealing with this particular crop of terrorists is that their race, culture and religion are all at variance with 'ours'. There is no 'similar' population within which to mask covert operations by our 'side' and it makes it very hard.

Mind you, with your training and duties I know you know this and I am preaching to the converted .

I also know that recent times are hitting you hard and you have my deepest sympathies. I feel much the same as yourself with regard to this wasteful and pointless un-winnable conflict but I cannot truly feel what you are having to deal with as the people involved are not known or connected to me.

 

[James Kovacich]

Then again if you can shoot at them and then walk into a house and not be followed lend themselves to it's amazing we don't have more casualities (nearly half of which have been suffered in the last two years).

Every American death is a trajedy. But the fact is over 9 years we've had less than 1,200 of them Pax,

Chris

I'm not sure where you got your numbers from and whose "watch" is being blamed ("bolded" text above) but these are the numbers I've found for Irag and Afghanistan. It seems that since Obama took office on 1/20/2009 the total deaths are not even close to the "half in last 2 years" as suggested. Iraqs numbers are included but they should be. Of the 5524 American deaths (excluding July 2010) in Iraq and Afghanistan, 689 deaths occurred after Obama took office and 4835 (2001-2008) were before Obama took office.

2010: 228 (excluding July) http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2010/
2009:461 http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2009/
2008:465 http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2008/
2007: 1019 http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/2007/
2006: 918
2005: 942
2004: 900
2003: 531
2002: 48
2001: 12 http://projects.washingtonpost.com/fallen/dates/

If anyone wishes they can "click" to see the actual faces.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm not sure where you got your numbers from and whose "watch" is being blamed ("bolded" text above) but these are the numbers I've found for Irag and Afghanistan.

http://www.icasualties.org/oef/

317 U.S. deaths in 2009, 228 U.S. deaths in 2010. Compared to a total of 1175 U.S. deaths since 2001.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris, you don't like me or my posts so give it a rest mate, it's boring.

Actually, Tez, I'm indifferent to you. If you post about something and I disagree (or agree) with it I'm perfectly capable of posting since this is a public forum.

Life in Iraq infinitely worse now, it's a matter of scale. No one said Saddam was great or even alright but he was a non religious buffer. Our 'allies' the Turks also kill and persecute the Kurds, nothing said about that.

So, since people haven't invaded Turkey they shouldn't have invaded Iraq? Is that what you're saying? This is a serious question because this statement of yours isn't clear to me.

You can't involve yourself in every possible conflict in the world. A country has limited resources and there will be some conflicts that simply will be unwinable. The people who are in the government are generally the ones who have to exercise prudential judgments about which conflicts - if any - the country gets involved in. They generally have more information on the matter than a private citizen. If people don't like enough of their decisions they can be, at least in the U.S. and other democratic countries, voted out of office.

Karzai is corrupt through and through.

And here in the real world you don't get to deal with angels all the time. He was probably the best we were going to get in Afghanistan. It was him of the Taliban.

He doesn't care who'd in charge as long as it's him, he's long been an Al Queda sympathiser, you can't blame Obama for that.

What I "blame" Obama for is stuipidly insulting Karzai to the point where he feels he has little if any support from the U.S. and so will be much more willing to cozy up to al-Qaida. Foreign policy isn't exactly Barak's strong suit, as he continues to demonstrate since day one (how's that bust of Churchill look back at 21 Downing St or wherever you guys stashed it since he threw it back in your faces?).

Obama is being honest and there's little point in him not telling the truth.

And his honesty is going to have severe consequences. For all his lip service about diplomacy he's demonstrated he has no idea what he's doing in that area.

While the government, police (they are very corrupt, we work with them out there, untrustworthy and mostly druggies) and army in Afghan is corrupt it's a waste of breath trying to even think there's going to be a decent standard of living or democracy there. Karzai is an example of evrything wrong about that place.

Oh, for the good old days of the Taliban! You're really beginning to sound a bit like people who would say "At least the made the trains run on time!" when talking about Mussolini.

Most of the Al Queda terrorist cells are in Pakistan and Kashmir not Afghanistan, they are training Muslims from the UK and the States then sending them back.

So, we should have invaded Pakistan? Or Kashmir? because either one of those areas would've been better to fight a war in? Conflicts there would've been more winable?

Entering any conflict is a matter of prudential judgement based on your ability to win (aming other things). Pakistan in ostensibly a U.S. ally, despite Obama's statement that he would invade it. That is generally frowned upon by people who are allies. YMMV But, again, remember that behaviors - even "diplomatic" statements like that one - have consequences.

New strategies and fresh thinking are needed on the terrorist situation, we aen't going to stop them by being in afghan.

Perhaps not, but Afghanistan was never supposed to be a one size fits all theatre of operations.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Bruno@MT]

What? The Brits didn't occupy Ireland?

[/quote]

No, not really. Ireland and Englad were in an English led union since the 1500s in one form or another, similar to Wales and Scotland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Act_of_Union_1800

You are referring to the troubles they had, but that was not the English invading Northern Ireland, it was the UK sending in the military to halt a violent conflict between 2 groups of people, one of which wanted to stay in the union and the other didn't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles

It would be more like if half the population of Texas wanted to secede, and the other half didn't want to, and they started a civil war. Then the National Guard would be sent in to stop the violence.

It's kind of hard to run "covert ops" without a base of operations in the mideast when you are America. And when you do you get criticized for it anyway.

Well, it would help if the US didn't suck at it and had some sense of reality. 1 such covert op put Saddam in power. Another turned Iran from a democratic country into the current fundamentalist regime. That's hardly a good track record, considering all the long term damage that has been done, and considering how much people died because of it.

 

[Tez3]

Chris, again with the words in my mouth! Thank you for the lecture, unnecessary though, as you've put the words in my mouth the whole of your lecture is skewed..badly. So we'll leave it there shall we. If you chose to ignore the mods warning about making personal you do it on your own, don't involve me.

As for me being classless, you'll find that's not an insult here, Maggie Thatcher's aim was for a classless society, we still have the working class of course, the middle class and the upper class but on the whole being classless is probably best as one can move between these classes easily fitting in anywhere.

Bruno is correct about Northern Ireland, we went in to separate the two sides intent on killing each other, it led to a bloody conflict not over yet. it's Marching Season there, where the Proptestants march through as many Catholic areas as they can get away with and there's been riots and injuries to the police ( that army no longer is used so the police are on their own)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lence-Northern-Ireland.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Thank you, Sukerkin for your thoughts, it's like having your sons away at war, my instructor and I both wince then hold our breath whenever a death is announced. Being not long out of the army many of his mates are out there too. The good thing is the cheerfulness and stoicism of the soldiers left here and in training (so young they are only 17 and to my old eyes, children) they have unfailing good humour and still manage to get into enough trouble to keep us occupied lol! We've had troops away before but this time it's worse, it's not even the numbers being killed, it's the numbers being wounded. It's every young mans nightmare I think to lose a limb, worse if it's legs and the lost of his genitals, the fear is quite real. For such young fit men you can only imagine the despair yet they are going out their having lost limbs and are climbing mountains, running marathoms etc but it's still so wrong that these young people are being maimed for life. You wonder at the feeling deep down at not being whole anymore. Long after the war is over we will be counting the cost.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris, again with the words in my mouth! Thank you for the lecture, unnecessary though, as you've put the words in my mouth the whole of your lecture is skewed..badly. So we'll leave it there shall we. If you chose to ignore the mods warning about making personal you do it on your own, don't involve me.

I'd be interested in seeing the words I put in your mouth, Tez.

I've already pointed out how you've completely exagerrated my "reaction" to your posts (see the comment you made above about me having a negative reaction to every post on any topic here on MT) and this comment seems to me to be just another example. If the mods have a serious problem with my posts I expect they would let me know. In fact I hope they would do so.

As for me being classless, you'll find that's not an insult here, Maggie Thatcher's aim was for a classless society, we still have the working class of course, the middle class and the upper class but on the whole being classless is probably best as one can move between these classes easily fitting in anywhere.

Where's the rimshot smiley when you need it, Tez?

It's a shame that vaunted English humor isn't a universal characteristic. Keep trying, though.

The rest of your reply was irrelevant to my post.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

I'd be interested in seeing the words I put in your mouth, Tez.

I've already pointed out how you've completely exagerrated my "reaction" to your posts (see the comment you made above about me having a negative reaction to every post on any topic here on MT) and this comment seems to me to be just another example. If the mods have a serious problem with my posts I expect they would let me know. In fact I hope they would do so.



Where's the rimshot smiley when you need it, Tez?

It's a shame that vaunted English humor isn't a universal characteristic. Keep trying, though.

The rest of your reply was irrelevant to my post.

Pax,

Chris

That might be because it was addressed to Sukerkin?

Again the snarky remarks, though, wasted because I haven't got he foggiest idea what a 'rimshot' is. You are making posts that are personal attacks on me. Fine but don't expect me to play.

 

[Hand Sword]

Many have their views as to why, and I won't argue with any of them. For me, it's a simple reason as to why. Ultimately, for the US military it comes down to orders. The ultimate buck stops at the desk and mind of the Commander and Chief of the forces which is the President of the United States. So, why are we there? Because he hasn't recalled the forces from there. Simple.
The why to that reason is a whole 'nother thread

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Folks, can you work out the personal differences via PM, or use the ignore feature, or let it go already? Some comments and tone are getting dangerously close to breaking any of a dozen rules and we'd appreciate it if we didn't have to start issuing infractions cards. Be nice to finish a month without them you know.....

Thanks.
The Mgmt.

 

[teekin]

Tez and Chrisp, you know you both have made some very good points. It got me to look at the conflict from a few different angles. The Content of your posts was highly informative, well thought and argued. Our involvment in Iraq and Afgan one of those "Doublethink" kind of things. It's so complicted, like jackstraws. How can you make one move one without disturbing the whole strucuture? Thanks for giving me the Doublethink moment. I enjoy those. :drinkbeer

Now if you two didn't snipe and bicker it would make reading and enjoying your posts so much easier. Please , please desist. Dente' OK? Please? :dramaqueen:

Lori

 

[Tez3]

Tez and Chrisp, you know you both have made some very good points. It got me to look at the conflict from a few different angles. The Content of your posts was highly informative, well thought and argued. Our involvment in Iraq and Afgan one of those "Doublethink" kind of things. It's so complicted, like jackstraws. How can you make one move one without disturbing the whole strucuture? Thanks for giving me the Doublethink moment. I enjoy those. :drinkbeer

Now if you two didn't snipe and bicker it would make reading and enjoying your posts so much easier. Please , please desist. Dente' OK? Please? :dramaqueen:

Lori

Thank you for thinking I was being childish, sadly if I was I'd be happy to thought that if I was indeed being petty but I'm watching daily as people I work with, train with and am friends with are being killed and maimed so don't expect me to be all sweetness and light where this subject is concerned. Four soldier were killed yesterday, one from my husbands old squadron, one from the Royal Marines, a bomb disposal tech and a soldier from a regiment I work closely with. I've lost two martial arts students in a year and a three close colleagues, we have double and triple amputees who we are trying to help back into work in the military in a useful capacity so they don't feel they are being condescended to.

I have 20 martial arts students out there, countless colleagues, a dozen or more fathers of the children I teach, my next door neighbour, my 'neighbour' across the road and one three doors up. A couple in the next street, the boyfriends and husbands of our clerks, the husbands of hundreds wives who we check with as to their security, the fathers and mothers of three primary schools and one secondary school here on the garrison, our club fitness coach and his 19 year son are out in Afghan. We have thousands of soldiers out there, just from here, not the rest of the UK from right here and dammit if I don't know most of them so its never going to be an academic subject for me, its always going to be passionate, worrying and I'm never, even if it means being thrown off MT, going to stand by and say nothing when something I feel strongly about is said wrongly. For you it may be small and relatively unimportant but for me, never.

 

[geezer]

I have 20 martial arts students out there, countless colleagues, a dozen or more fathers of the children I teach, my next door neighbour, my 'neighbour' across the road and one three doors up. A couple in the next street, the boyfriends and husbands of our clerks, the husbands of hundreds wives who we check with as to their security, the fathers and mothers of three primary schools and one secondary school here on the garrison, our club fitness coach and his 19 year son are out in Afghan. We have thousands of soldiers out there, just from here, not the rest of the UK from right here and dammit if I don't know most of them so its never going to be an academic subject for me, its always going to be passionate...

Tez, you clearly have a closer connection than most with many who are serving, or have served, and in some cases have even been wounded or killed in Afghanistan. Here in the states, few outside of military communities have that direct a connection to what's going on "over there". And that is a big factor in how people view things. For most of my life, I've had relatively little direct contact with servicemen. But when I became a high-school teacher in a blue collar community, that changed a bit. Now some of my former students are serving. Former students from my district have died. None of mine yet, thank God. But just out of curiosity, as a person living in a long ways away, how is it that you have so many contacts with servicemen and women? Are you or your spouse or family in the military, or living near a base? I ask, because I value your informed perspective.

 

[elder999]

Having read the MOD obituries of another two fine soldiers lost in this conflict that isn't even a war, I am struck by need to ask the question flat out -

- what on earth are we doing there?

Look at your U.S. history, and you can trace it right back through Viet Nam (an excellent parallel, IMNSHO) directly to Texas, and see that what we're doing there is remembering the Alamo... :lol:

 

[Tez3]

Tez, you clearly have a closer connection than most with many who are serving, or have served, and in some cases have even been wounded or killed in Afghanistan. Here in the states, few outside of military communities have that direct a connection to what's going on "over there". And that is a big factor in how people view things. For most of my life, I've had relatively little direct contact with servicemen. But when I became a high-school teacher in a blue collar community, that changed a bit. Now some of my former students are serving. Former students from my district have died. None of mine yet, thank God. But just out of curiosity, as a person living in a long ways away, how is it that you have so many contacts with servicemen and women? Are you or your spouse or family in the military, or living near a base? I ask, because I value your informed perspective.

I'm employed by the Ministry Defence in uniform but not in the military (though I am ex RAF as is my husband) and live on Catterick Garrison, I work with the military and our MA club is Catterick Garrison Martial Arts Club, we train in the Scots Guards Barracks. Most of our students are soldiers (male and female) and our childrens class is made up of dependants of the military, the women's class I teach is specifically for the wives and daughters of soldiers. The Garrison is bigger than the local town, Richmond which relies to a large extent on the Garrison for employment and support, it's a huge part of local life.
Poignantly, the barracks, schools, roads etc are named after First World war battles... Somme,Ypres, Bourlon, Gaza, le Cateau etc. The Brigade HQ is in Baden-Powell House which became Lord Baden-Powell's HQ during the first war, before that it was in the local castle in Richmond, in the Garrison HQ Perrone House there is a collection of photos dating from the the first world war time through the second world war to the present day. As well as the regiments and corps here we have the Infantry Training Centre which trains all the infantry as well as the Paras, Gurkhas and the Guards regiments. We have three primary schools, one secondary school, a radio station - part of BFBS, a sports/leisure complex even our own town centre! We have a very large training area for tanks as well as the infantry. the married quarters here are spread in estates throughout the Garriosn but there's a couple of thousand houses as well as block of accomodation for the 'singlies'.
Stationed here are two medical regiments, a REME regt, the Scots Guards, the Lancashire Regmient, 5 Regt Royal Artillery, 1 Mercian Regt, 150 RMP Det. The Queens Draggon Guards, the Queens Royal Lancers. Part of the Brigae but half an hour down the road we have the Army Air Corps and a Royal Horse Artiilery regt. Twenty mins down the road is RAF Leeming with it's flying sqns and the RAF Regiment. All of these units are currently in Afghan ( with 40 CDO RM currently attached to the Brigade along with other units) leaving only rear parties. The Brigade returns in October.

http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/9958.aspx


BTW I'm not saying I'm right about things just how I feel.

 

[Blade96]

I've been reading the snipes and tbh i was enjoying the snipes, maybe not the name calling but I think those two are great but the fact that Tez was so passionate, i just knew it was something that affected her personally. Maybe Chris too because they argue so much. and it seems to affect both of them.

 

[Tez3]

I've been reading the snipes and tbh i was enjoying the snipes, maybe not the name calling but I think those two are great but the fact that Tez was so passionate, i just knew it was something that affected her personally. Maybe Chris too because they argue so much. and it seems to affect both of them.

It's not just my posts, or this thread or even this subject.

I had said several times why I was so het up about it, I explained exactly why and what.

 

[Blade96]

It's not just my posts, or this thread or even this subject.

I had said several times why I was so het up about it, I explained exactly why and what.

That you did. I'm sorry for you and everyone who lost a loved one, family, friends, pets, etc. in wars. Not good.

My sympathies go out to you, Irene, and everyone else.

 

[teekin]

Tez, my friend, I don't think you are being childish in the least. I am deeply sorry if I convayed that. I can sense your passion and compassion for your Mates, students and all the young boys that serve in that quagmire. I do not diminish either their sacrafice or your feelings towards that gift.

All I am saying is you make your points ellquently with facts without taking personal shots at anyone. I get that you are invested in this as deep as one can be. I wish you nothing but peace, however you find it.

Lori