chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Way to not read what I wrote in my post, Tez. I'm glad to see you never get tired of ignoring what I say.
Thanks again!
Pax,
Chris
Afghanistan - Why Are We There?
- Thread starter Sukerkin
- Start date
Way to not read what I wrote in my post, Tez. I'm glad to see you never get tired of ignoring what I say.
Thanks again!
Pax,
Chris
I read what was in your post, as always. it says what it says don't make out like I misread it.
" But the fact is over 9 years we've had less than 1,200 of them (and a little over 300 British deaths over the same period). I believe we had about 300,000 deaths in WW II between Dec. 1941 and June, 1944. Things in Afghanistan could be so much worse."
How does comparing deaths in wars make anything seem better? How could things be much worse for the troops and the families? Do you sit waiting for the Welfare Officer and the Padre to knock on your door? A friend of mine has been to nine funerals in a month, her husbands rgiment has lost nine soldiers, thats nine families bereft. Shall I pass her your wise words, without comment from me and I'll pass her reply on to you. No, its not me misreading. This is an emotive subject, I have friends, students, colleagues and many people out there that I'm close to, there's no way I'm going to let cold hearted comments pass. It's not just my people either, the disregard for your own amazes me but of course it could be worse only a 1000 of yours dead, a trifling amount except to their familes who I have every sympathy and thoughts for. My thoughts too are for those who nurse and support the wounded and maimed, don't tell them that it could have been worse.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
The fact that you simply "forgot" to quote the part where I said every American death (and by extension every allied troop's death) is a trajedy just shows that you're not serious about having a discussion on this topic. Which is fine, it's understandable that emotions run high on topics like this. You'd rather rant. That's OK. Not helpful, but understandable.
It doesn't make it "better" but it does give perspective. As I said in my previous post, things could be much, much worse.
But you're not interested in seeing things in perspective. That's fine.
There could be countless more of them, that's how.
This statement, in light of what I have said before just demonstrates how classless you are, Tez.
Pax,
Chris
I saw where you said it was a tragedy, meaningless platitude.
Classless, yep thats me. Grieving too but hey things could always be worse so save your insults for someone who actually cares sunshine. Lost a student this week in Afghan but hey could be worse.
Classless, yep thats me. Grieving too but hey things could always be worse so save your insults for someone who actually cares sunshine. Lost a student this week in Afghan but hey could be worse.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I'm glad to see you can make such a judgement about me based on a single post.
Yes, Tez you are classless if you're going to level those charges against me based on what I said. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you actually read my post. But you're not interested in discussion, you're interested in demonizing people who disagree with you.
Pax,
Chris
You don't know what my interests are in the least. I took expection to one part of your post, which I pointed out. I told you this is an emotive subject, I have no perceptio on it, how could I in my situation, there is no perception, only grief, hope and the effort of carrying on. Apart from the Royal Marines every single British soldier killed or wounded since April is from right here where I am, I live and work with them, I train with them, see them every day. the children I teach martial arts to, their fathers are out their, brothers and sisters too in many cases. My adult students are out there. British regiments are family affairs, you will have, fathers, brothers, uncles, etc etc all in the same regiment. One woman could have her husband, sons, brothers, uncles, father, her in laws all out there at the same time. We have a rehab centre here, I see amputees sruggling to get fit, I see flowrrs placed around the garrison for the dead. No I have no class, no perception, nothing except emptiness and grief so don't ever tell me things could be worse.
It may be a cold dispassionate argument to some but not me, I am angry, sad and very very afraid of hearing the next announcment of who's been killed. I don't care whether you disagree or not, I care that the sacrifice of others is trivialised with the expression 'it could be worse'. This isn't a soulless discussion for me, it's personal.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I can only judge your intentions based on your posts. The ones you have directed to me are quite obviously void of any interest in discussion on this topic. They are only geared towards demonizing a person who takes an opposing viewpoint from you.
Of course you have a perception on the subject. If you didn't you wouldn't have an emotional reaction in the first place.
Those are all horrible things that are, sadly, much too common in any war. But if you are therefore arguing that because of the results the war should be ended that was why I brought up WW II, a conflict in which massively greater casualties were suffered over a much shorter period of time.
As I said, you're just interested in demonizing people, not discussing this topic. Which is fine. Except for the fact that this is a discussion forum.
Pax,
Chris
WWII was a war that needed to be fought.
What has Afghanistan acheived? Bin Laden is still out there. The Taliban still rule the country. Hell, the puppet in charge just invited them back in the government.
I'll tell you how your allies see this. The focused operation was going pretty good until the Americans got bored and pulled out to go to Iraq, leaving us with not enough resources to actually fight this thing.
It's never going to change there. It's actually worse now because you have a lot more Iraqis who can't stand Americans. The life in Iraq is worse now than it was under Saddam.
I've stood along the Highway of Heroes. It's high time we bring our boys home.
What has Afghanistan acheived? Bin Laden is still out there. The Taliban still rule the country. Hell, the puppet in charge just invited them back in the government.
I'll tell you how your allies see this. The focused operation was going pretty good until the Americans got bored and pulled out to go to Iraq, leaving us with not enough resources to actually fight this thing.
It's never going to change there. It's actually worse now because you have a lot more Iraqis who can't stand Americans. The life in Iraq is worse now than it was under Saddam.
I've stood along the Highway of Heroes. It's high time we bring our boys home.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...erations/ThreeSoldiersKilledInAfghanistan.htm
Whatever you say chris, every post I have ever put on any subject on MT you have taken the same aggressive attitude to, if I annoy you so much that you feel the need to insult me, press the ignore button.
There are some posts on this thread I disagree with the views put, yet there is still a discussion. I demonise no one and have said often that we need to leave there because it is doing no good. I would suggest based on my experiences with your posts when they concern me is that it's a personal thing with you where you try constantly to belittle me and insult me. As I said you can press the ignore button.
Whatever you say chris, every post I have ever put on any subject on MT you have taken the same aggressive attitude to, if I annoy you so much that you feel the need to insult me, press the ignore button.
There are some posts on this thread I disagree with the views put, yet there is still a discussion. I demonise no one and have said often that we need to leave there because it is doing no good. I would suggest based on my experiences with your posts when they concern me is that it's a personal thing with you where you try constantly to belittle me and insult me. As I said you can press the ignore button.
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
Thank God you haven't stooped to needless exaggeration, Tez. A quick glance at your current post count reveals that you've made about 8,300 posts. And apparently I have had an "aggressive attitude" towards all of them, regardless of the topic.
Strangely, I feel pretty confident that is not the case. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you had the same attitude towards my posts. Granted, I'd never say that applied to them on "any subject" since it seems more geared towards my posts in the Study instead of any other area.
I will say, however, that your statement above is a good example of your argumentation put forth in this thread so far.
Well, this bolded part is obviously not true.
Interestingly, from my point of view I could say much the same towards you, Tez. I stand by my statement that you aren't interested in an actual discussion on this topic and that you are trying to demonize me because I have an opposing view since you've consistently appealed to pure emotion instead of any sort of rational argument in answering my posts. If you want to take an accurate description of your behavior as an insult or belittlement you might want to do a little self-examination.
As for ignore buttons, I don't use them on anyone. It's a public discussion forum and I like reading opposing view points. On the other hand, you can certainly use yours if you are incapable answering my posts without simply appealing to emotion as the main basis of your argument.
Pax,
Chris
chrispillertkd
Senior Master
I already listed what the conflict in Afghanistan has achieved. Whether you think that is "enough" or not is a different matter. Whether anything more could be achieved is, however, extremely unlikely.
As for Karzai, he's made some overtures to the Taliban since Obama has taken to insulting him on a fairly regular basis as being corrupt. In the world of diplomacy and foreign relations that isn't exactly a good thing to do since his regime is 1) friendly for the most part towards the west, and 2) dependent on the presence of U.S. troops for stability against al-Qaida. With Obama making noises such as he was it isn't surprising that Karzai would think things are going south as far as U.S. military support was concerned. He's probably trying to come up with anything he can to prevent the area from falling back into an al-Qaida stronghold and, absent any perceived support by Obama he might think the Taliban is the lesser of two evils.
Tell it to Obama. He's in charge, and the last two years have been a slide downwards.
As I mentioned before, there was no way Afghanistan was going to be even a candidate for full on nation building. It was a mission to break al-Qaida's grip on the area - which succeeded - and eventually to topple the Taliban - which also succeeded. Troops remained in the area to prevent a resurgence.
You have jumped form Afghanistan to Iraq in this statement but the idea that life in Iraq is now worse than when Saddam was in power is laughable (and I'm not fan of the Iraq war). Do you know how he treated, for example, the Kurds? I mean, they're no longer being gassed by the own government and all but sure things still could improve.
Pax,
Chris
Chris, you don't like me or my posts so give it a rest mate, it's boring.
Life in Iraq infinitely worse now, it's a matter of scale. No one said Saddam was great or even alright but he was a non religious buffer. Our 'allies' the Turks also kill and persecute the Kurds, nothing said about that.
Karzai is corrupt through and through. He doesn't care who'd in charge as long as it's him, he's long been an Al Queda sympathiser, you can't blame Obama for that. Obama is being honest and there's little point in him not telling the truth. While the government, police (they are very corrupt, we work with them out there, untrustworthy and mostly druggies) and army in Afghan is corrupt it's a waste of breath trying to even think there's going to be a decent standard of living or democracy there. Karzai is an example of evrything wrong about that place.
Most of the Al Queda terrorist cells are in Pakistan and Kashmir not Afghanistan, they are training Muslims from the UK and the States then sending them back. Suicide bombers are still reaching us in all parts of the world, I believe the death toll in Africa is in the nineties now. The condition of women and girls is no better now than before, acid is thrown on girls who dare to go to school, women still beaten and killed. Even the military medics have to treat the men of the villagers before being allowed to treat the women and girls. The way of life there is entrenched and has been for centuries, our presence there does no good, we don't keep the terrorists down, they are in neighbouring countries, they hit and run back there.
New strategies and fresh thinking are needed on the terrorist situation, we aen't going to stop them by being in afghan.
Life in Iraq infinitely worse now, it's a matter of scale. No one said Saddam was great or even alright but he was a non religious buffer. Our 'allies' the Turks also kill and persecute the Kurds, nothing said about that.
Karzai is corrupt through and through. He doesn't care who'd in charge as long as it's him, he's long been an Al Queda sympathiser, you can't blame Obama for that. Obama is being honest and there's little point in him not telling the truth. While the government, police (they are very corrupt, we work with them out there, untrustworthy and mostly druggies) and army in Afghan is corrupt it's a waste of breath trying to even think there's going to be a decent standard of living or democracy there. Karzai is an example of evrything wrong about that place.
Most of the Al Queda terrorist cells are in Pakistan and Kashmir not Afghanistan, they are training Muslims from the UK and the States then sending them back. Suicide bombers are still reaching us in all parts of the world, I believe the death toll in Africa is in the nineties now. The condition of women and girls is no better now than before, acid is thrown on girls who dare to go to school, women still beaten and killed. Even the military medics have to treat the men of the villagers before being allowed to treat the women and girls. The way of life there is entrenched and has been for centuries, our presence there does no good, we don't keep the terrorists down, they are in neighbouring countries, they hit and run back there.
New strategies and fresh thinking are needed on the terrorist situation, we aen't going to stop them by being in afghan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10610068.stm
As I said, the soldiers are untrustworthy and this, as quoted is 'a serious breach of trust'.
Murdering scum.
As I said, the soldiers are untrustworthy and this, as quoted is 'a serious breach of trust'.
Murdering scum.
Ladies and gentlemen,
There's a bit more leeway, regarding the rules, when it comes to the Study, compared to the rest of the forum. Heat is allowed, and even to be expected, since discussion of such topics will generate strong feelings on one side or another.
You're allowed to attack the message, but not the messenger. If you don't like what someone has to say, and if you're tired of reading such statements, then you can always use the ignore feature.
-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator
There's a bit more leeway, regarding the rules, when it comes to the Study, compared to the rest of the forum. Heat is allowed, and even to be expected, since discussion of such topics will generate strong feelings on one side or another.
You're allowed to attack the message, but not the messenger. If you don't like what someone has to say, and if you're tired of reading such statements, then you can always use the ignore feature.
-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator
I've argued the scale and perspective points myself, repeatedly and I stick to them. The losses in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other fronts (yes, there are several other fronts you aren't hearing much on) has been nothing compared to and 1 week during combat during WWI, WW2, Korea or Vietnam. But each person lost still hurts. We can toss around statistics like "At Gettysburg 60,000 fell, all brothers", yet how many of them did we grow up with, goto school with, dine with, train with and now have a dark void in our hearts knowing we'll never hear their laugh again.
I've got friends over there myself. I know people about to deploy. 2 of my clients have been there that I know of. It's rough.
All the statistics out of dusty history books seeking to put things into perspective pale when faced with personal loss. It would do us well to remember that and . When your in pain, you're in pain. Period.
We're stuck in 2 wars now that at one time made sense, and now seem to be little more than quagmires of uncertainty. I don't know why we're still there...I just hope we're not there too much longer, and that the costs in personal pain and loss don't go much higher.
I've got friends over there myself. I know people about to deploy. 2 of my clients have been there that I know of. It's rough.
All the statistics out of dusty history books seeking to put things into perspective pale when faced with personal loss. It would do us well to remember that and . When your in pain, you're in pain. Period.
We're stuck in 2 wars now that at one time made sense, and now seem to be little more than quagmires of uncertainty. I don't know why we're still there...I just hope we're not there too much longer, and that the costs in personal pain and loss don't go much higher.
The only thing that's been acheived is Al-Qaeda is training in Pakistan now,
Karzao knows that as soon as the troops leave, it's back to normal with the Taliban in power. He's just trying to stay in himself and doesn't care who he has to sleep with.
If I recall, it's Bush that cut and run out of Afghanistan for his little foray into Iraq.
The life of the avarage Iraqui before the war was much better than it is now. The infrastructure was there, bombs didn't go off randomly. Saddam was not great, but this is worse, and when the US leaves it will revert to a full blown civil war.
All wars end, eventually.
We, the allies, need out of this one ASAP.
The cost, (lives, $$), vs. benefit is way outta whack.
This needs a political solution and quite frankly I donĀt see anyone stepping up and creating the framework for one.
The Brits proved in Northern Ireland, that you beat terrorists by covert operations and intelligence. Yes some will get through, some innocent allied deaths will occur, but in the long run you will stop a great deal more attacks.
We, the allies, need out of this one ASAP.
The cost, (lives, $$), vs. benefit is way outta whack.
This needs a political solution and quite frankly I donĀt see anyone stepping up and creating the framework for one.
The Brits proved in Northern Ireland, that you beat terrorists by covert operations and intelligence. Yes some will get through, some innocent allied deaths will occur, but in the long run you will stop a great deal more attacks.
More troops = more fighting = more humanaitarian aid needed
http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=89806
Afghan war unwinnable under Karzai
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SGE66B0CT.htm
all from an official MOD blog.
http://www.blogs.mod.uk/afghanistan/
this BBC report is from 2007.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6254375.stm
A few hours ago a Royal Marine from 40 CDORM was killed, four soldiers killed today.
http://www.irinnews.org/Report.aspx?ReportId=89806
Afghan war unwinnable under Karzai
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SGE66B0CT.htm
all from an official MOD blog.
http://www.blogs.mod.uk/afghanistan/
this BBC report is from 2007.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6254375.stm
A few hours ago a Royal Marine from 40 CDORM was killed, four soldiers killed today.
Blade96
Senior Master
Thanks guys. Those are great points, and I would agree with you completely except there's the fact that many of these people (like bush and people with beliefs like his) who tend to oppose things like condoms and artificial birth control and prefer abstinence teaching and the like instead. Yes they have supported things like the WHO and RC but i wondered really about this. This doesnt contribute much to helping stop the spread of aids. Thats why i mentioned abortion, there is a link between all of these things.
as fpr karzai, he also allowed a rule that allowed men of some tribes or something to rape their wives. He is no angel.
and the USA fighting to install a 'pro-west government' Sounds like the cold war all over again.
Archangel M
Senior Master
What? The Brits didn't occupy Ireland?
It's kind of hard to run "covert ops" without a base of operations in the mideast when you are America. And when you do you get criticized for it anyway.
